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Nov Patch, An Explanation


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#61 Curccu

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 05:47 AM

View Postkillkimno, on 27 November 2023 - 04:23 AM, said:


Really???

Most weapons in the clan still generate high heat.

In addition, most ClanMechs have no Quirks or very low Quirks.

look at this
https://mwo.nav-alph...ee051a5_MAD-IIC


Since it only depends on energy, even 18 additional heats cannot handle the heat.
Even a medium laser, which is not a heavy weapon, cannot handle the heat.

This is because it only has energy armament and no quarks themselves.


Otherwise, can barely handle the heat if you wear weapons that are worse than a medium mech.

Because Clan Laser is too hot and there are too many Mech without Quirks.

What you mean it cannot handle the heat?
After nerf compared to similar stalker build (LPL ERML) it still has same sustained dps, it is faster, it doesn't explode on sidetorso destruction and so on.

#62 Samziel

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:00 AM

View Postkillkimno, on 27 November 2023 - 04:23 AM, said:


Really???

Most weapons in the clan still generate high heat.

In addition, most ClanMechs have no Quirks or very low Quirks.

look at this
https://mwo.nav-alph...ee051a5_MAD-IIC


Since it only depends on energy, even 18 additional heats cannot handle the heat.
Even a medium laser, which is not a heavy weapon, cannot handle the heat.

This is because it only has energy armament and no quarks themselves.


Otherwise, can barely handle the heat if you wear weapons that are worse than a medium mech.

Because Clan Laser is too hot and there are too many Mech without Quirks.


That mech can, in fact, handle the heat. I play lots with the 3 LPL 6 ERML version with 17 cDHS. The 2 LPL faster one will be fine after the nerfs. Just please ditch the flamer...

Edited by Samziel, 27 November 2023 - 08:05 AM.


#63 foamyesque

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 01:07 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 26 November 2023 - 10:56 PM, said:


A massive 30% heat nerf on top of an already hot weapon, plus nerf to cool shots, in exchange for removing a spread stats that didn't matter whatsoever, especially under 600 meters.

Give HAGs a try in game right now. See if your conspiracy theory still holds up.

I ain't gonna engage in conspiracy theories, but I'll note a couple things:

1. Under the October patch, people were trying to claim that the HAG spread was noticeable at reducing their effectiveness; that's the same spread you're now saying was irrelevant. Frost_Byte was posting on here claiming that the October spread was a 'lottery ticket'.

2. The reason that spread was irrelevant was because it had already been reduced by half. It could just as easily have been increased or left alone; Cauldron made the decision to cut it in half and then to eliminate it entirely instead, and try to balance all the stuff HAGs are breaking via heat and cooldown instead.


My general view is that spread, as effectively a damage nerf, would be an effective way to reduce the synergies with lasers, and reduce the alpha-loading HAGs introduced. Trying to balance with heat and cooldown may eventually work, but I don't understand the reluctance to use the tool HAGs started with and that, for that matter, matches up better with their TT rulesets (which also had to confront the issue of '40 damage to the same spot is an awful lot' and went with 'you can't actually do 40 damage to the same spot unless you're really lucky' as their answer).

Another option, I suppose, would be to give them recoil screenshake in the same manner as Sphere Heavy Gauss. That would instantly annihilate the laser synergy and introduce burst spread in its own right, with, depending on how things work, every shot in a burst making the next one progressively less accurate.

#64 Moadebe

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 01:25 PM

View Postfoamyesque, on 27 November 2023 - 01:07 PM, said:

I ain't gonna engage in conspiracy theories, but I'll note a couple things:

1. Under the October patch, people were trying to claim that the HAG spread was noticeable at reducing their effectiveness; that's the same spread you're now saying was irrelevant. Frost_Byte was posting on here claiming that the October spread was a 'lottery ticket'.

2. The reason that spread was irrelevant was because it had already been reduced by half. It could just as easily have been increased or left alone; Cauldron made the decision to cut it in half and then to eliminate it entirely instead, and try to balance all the stuff HAGs are breaking via heat and cooldown instead.


My general view is that spread, as effectively a damage nerf, would be an effective way to reduce the synergies with lasers, and reduce the alpha-loading HAGs introduced. Trying to balance with heat and cooldown may eventually work, but I don't understand the reluctance to use the tool HAGs started with and that, for that matter, matches up better with their TT rulesets (which also had to confront the issue of '40 damage to the same spot is an awful lot' and went with 'you can't actually do 40 damage to the same spot unless you're really lucky' as their answer).

Another option, I suppose, would be to give them recoil screenshake in the same manner as Sphere Heavy Gauss. That would instantly annihilate the laser synergy and introduce burst spread in its own right, with, depending on how things work, every shot in a burst making the next one progressively less accurate.


The main argument from my understanding in removing the spread overall was that it was "too random" ... hence the lottery statement that was made.....

I think what they really need to point out because of all of that statement is that it already has a sort of "spread" as the volley fire is kinda a z axis spread. Which left the x,y spread a bit much. I "think" that is why they were saying what they said.

Truthfully. It worked just fine with ALL of that spread. The closer you got the more accurate you could be. You just couldn't sit there and farm damage (which you hear OFTEN stated that "farming damage is king") reliably at extreme/long ranges.

Hell that is why there is a bias.....

And WHY people keep thinking there is one. Why people keep saying "long range bias." The inability to see past what needs to happen over what they WANT to happen.

#65 feeWAIVER

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 01:41 PM

View Postfoamyesque, on 27 November 2023 - 01:07 PM, said:

Frost_Byte was posting on here claiming that the October spread was a 'lottery ticket'.



It was me.. I coined the phrase "lottery ticket", but I was agreeing with Frost_Byte that it's a.fair arguement.
If firing intervals + spread are creating such randomness that the same shot will sometimes produce 5 DMG or 40 DMG or 0 DMG, then it's not fun for the player, and it's not good for the game.

#66 Moadebe

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 01:56 PM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 01:41 PM, said:

It was me.. I coined the phrase "lottery ticket", but I was agreeing with Frost_Byte that it's a.fair arguement.
If firing intervals + spread are creating such randomness that the same shot will sometimes produce 5 DMG or 40 DMG or 0 DMG, then it's not fun for the player, and it's not good for the game.


Then lets apply the "get gud" and close the distance argument to that....

I mean thats whats basically said when people point out that they are losing large sections of their armor from shots half way across the map....

Having that much spread made them more effective at closer range, but you COULD shoot them at range and hope for the best....

#67 foamyesque

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 03:43 PM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 01:41 PM, said:

It was me.. I coined the phrase "lottery ticket", but I was agreeing with Frost_Byte that it's a.fair arguement.
If firing intervals + spread are creating such randomness that the same shot will sometimes produce 5 DMG or 40 DMG or 0 DMG, then it's not fun for the player, and it's not good for the game.


Shoot 'em again. It'll average out. Or risk them being able to shoot back more effectively and close in to reduce the impact on your own machine. Same deal as with LBX cannons or MRMs,

#68 Navid A1

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 06:19 PM

View Postfoamyesque, on 27 November 2023 - 03:43 PM, said:

Shoot 'em again. It'll average out. Or risk them being able to shoot back more effectively and close in to reduce the impact on your own machine. Same deal as with LBX cannons or MRMs,


The "deal" with LBX and MRMs is that they fire a lot of pellets to saturate an area with damage. Their "deal" is averaging in a single volley.

If HAGs fast fired 40 pellets then they would be the same as LBX and MRMs. but with small number of pellets spread creates inconsistency.
40 slugs is a big load on servers, and a massive particle spam that tanks your framerate.

#69 pbiggz

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 07:00 PM

Navid could you explain the justification behind making HAGs into such a commanding long range weapon when the original design intent was that they fill a more mid-ranged niche? Because it seems like you guys picked up the weapon and just *changed* it. Im all for changes when they are called for and in fact im in favour of pretty bold spalshy changes to make weapons unique and exciting, but im kinda struggling to see what your intent is here with the HAG.

#70 Navid A1

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 07:24 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 27 November 2023 - 07:00 PM, said:

Navid could you explain the justification behind making HAGs into such a commanding long range weapon when the original design intent was that they fill a more mid-ranged niche? Because it seems like you guys picked up the weapon and just *changed* it. Im all for changes when they are called for and in fact im in favour of pretty bold spalshy changes to make weapons unique and exciting, but im kinda struggling to see what your intent is here with the HAG.


Burst fire is something that is used to spread the damage naturally. It is used for Clan UACs for this same purpose, rather than creating artificial inconsistency, you make the burst shell count, moving targets, exposure time, and (potentially in future) slow velocity work against long range.

However, long range or mid range, they have an issue which is just too much damage output for how much they cost in heat, which allows them to be combined with lasers easily. That's what we're trying to address first and foremost.

#71 foamyesque

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 07:34 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 27 November 2023 - 06:19 PM, said:


The "deal" with LBX and MRMs is that they fire a lot of pellets to saturate an area with damage. Their "deal" is averaging in a single volley.

If HAGs fast fired 40 pellets then they would be the same as LBX and MRMs. but with small number of pellets spread creates inconsistency.
40 slugs is a big load on servers, and a massive particle spam that tanks your framerate.

LBX5 shoots fewer pellets than a HAG40 and only one more than a 30. Same with LRM5s. SRM6s tie. We gonna see spread reductions on all of those? The 'there's not enough to average' thing was a nonsense argument when I first saw Frost_Byte advance it and it isn't any better from you.

Just... shoot again. That will force extra exposure time, and as a damage nerf per individual volley it also addresses the 'too much damage for the heat' to boot.

Yes, it would make the weapon worse, that's the point.

Edited by foamyesque, 27 November 2023 - 07:34 PM.


#72 feeWAIVER

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:13 PM

View Postfoamyesque, on 27 November 2023 - 07:34 PM, said:

LBX5 shoots fewer pellets than a HAG40 and only one more than a 30. Same with LRM5s. SRM6s tie. We gonna see spread reductions on all of those? The 'there's not enough to average' thing was a nonsense argument when I first saw Frost_Byte advance it and it isn't any better from you.

Just... shoot again. That will force extra exposure time, and as a damage nerf per individual volley it also addresses the 'too much damage for the heat' to boot.

Yes, it would make the weapon worse, that's the point.



The answer to your question is literally in the post that you quoted.

#73 An Actual Walrus

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:32 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 26 November 2023 - 03:15 PM, said:

It is across the board. Internal and external.


Will there be a justification for this, or is it going to be another "Just trust us, bro" moment?

#74 Besh

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:36 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 27 November 2023 - 06:19 PM, said:


The "deal" with LBX and MRMs is that they fire a lot of pellets to saturate an area with damage. Their "deal" is averaging in a single volley.

If HAGs fast fired 40 pellets then they would be the same as LBX and MRMs. but with small number of pellets spread creates inconsistency.
40 slugs is a big load on servers, and a massive particle spam that tanks your framerate.


On the matter of "inconsistency" : what people are critisizing is the desire for the weapon to do what it does *consistently* at the Range and with the Velocity it does it . I think thats where the argument of "long Range bias" comes from .

Me personally, I am going as far as asking "please explain to me why this Weapon (HAG ) has to be consistent ."

#75 The6thMessenger

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:38 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 27 November 2023 - 06:19 PM, said:

40 slugs is a big load on servers, and a massive particle spam that tanks your framerate.


Real quick tho, why is this an issue with HAGs but not MRM40s or LRMs for that matter? I didn't really asked this before, because I don't have access to backend engineering side of things, so I'd like to just take the word of those that actually work on it. But since we're tackling this, maybe it needs to be addressed?

What makes HAGs kinda different? Because if it's just a matter of projectiles then the game has been handling a LOT of active projectiles by the mere virtue of MRMs and LRMs that can be fired enmasse, to a bullet-hell degree. And I think that an unguided non-homing projectile that hits faster and quicker to clean up as a result, is a lot less taxing to the server than a homing projectile that has to go through a pre-determined arc and change it's flight pattern to home.

"Not add to it" is kinda some answer I see being given, but it just says about the group's reservation than the actual line that musn't be crossed -- as in, wouldn't this argument fall apart when LRMs and MRMs aren't being used?

You mentioned that there's the frame-rate issue on particles. You guys could add new weapons, maybe Gauss Slugs that aren't as sparky on impact could be done.

View PostBesh, on 27 November 2023 - 08:36 PM, said:

I think thats where the argument of "long Range bias" comes from


Pretty sure HAGs is just the symptom, not the cause.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 November 2023 - 08:45 PM.


#76 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:45 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 27 November 2023 - 06:19 PM, said:


The "deal" with LBX and MRMs is that they fire a lot of pellets to saturate an area with damage. Their "deal" is averaging in a single volley.

If HAGs fast fired 40 pellets then they would be the same as LBX and MRMs. but with small number of pellets spread creates inconsistency.
40 slugs is a big load on servers, and a massive particle spam that tanks your framerate.


Change it to 2dmg/pellet so it would be 20 pellets instead of 40 (1dmg/pellet) or the current 8 pellets (5dmg/pellet). How many pellets do RAC fires? Simply pointing out HAGs were supposed to be Clans answer to IS RACs. And firing more pellets would also mean more face time, and the ability to spread that damage further apart they are from each other. Pulled the info from another thread for RACs.

Quote

Rac 5 deals 1.5 damage/shot and does so 7.275 every second


#77 Navid A1

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:49 PM

View Postfoamyesque, on 27 November 2023 - 07:34 PM, said:

LBX5 shoots fewer pellets than a HAG40 and only one more than a 30. Same with LRM5s. SRM6s tie. We gonna see spread reductions on all of those? The 'there's not enough to average' thing was a nonsense argument when I first saw Frost_Byte advance it and it isn't any better from you.

Just... shoot again. That will force extra exposure time, and as a damage nerf per individual volley it also addresses the 'too much damage for the heat' to boot.

Yes, it would make the weapon worse, that's the point.


Which is what makes one LBX5 very unreliable. Requiring you to pack more of them so you are able to take away that inconsistency from your LBX shot.

Also, if you want to compare, then sure, if you are ok with it, we can make HAG40 have 2 heat, fire every 2 seconds without charge up, but we give it LBX5 spread.

Do you think things get better at 500m range?

This the main question.

View PostTarl Cabot, on 27 November 2023 - 08:45 PM, said:


Change it to 2dmg/pellet so it would be 20 pellets instead of 40 (1dmg/pellet) or the current 8 pellets (5dmg/pellet). How many pellets do RAC fires? Simply pointing out HAGs were supposed to be Clans answer to IS RACs. And firing more pellets would also mean more face time, and the ability to spread that damage further apart they are from each other. Pulled the info from another thread for RACs.


No more than its current 8 is the answer we got.

#78 feeWAIVER

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 09:04 PM

I think the "long range bias" and sniper complaints are largely from binaries, in reality.
I don't use hags, but really, nobody else does either- look around. It's not hags that are swaying games.
We see a lot of rabble rousing about "long range bias" and "sniper meta", but I think people just see flashlights and that's what's making them mad.

Take a look:

Quote

C Heavy
Damage 18
Heat 14.5
Cooldown 5.5
Duration 1.45

Binary
Damage 18
Heat 13
Cooldown 3.5
Duration 1.25

Large Laser
Damage 9
Heat 6.5
Cooldown 3.5
Duration 1

ERLL
Damage 9
Heat 7.5
Cooldown 4
Duration 1.1


LPL
Damage 11
Heat 7
Cooldown 3.5
Duration .75



The problem that everyone is feeling is Binary Lasers, specifically the burn duration on them.
They burn faster than Clan Heavies + they have IS duration quirks + IS armor/structure quirks.
Their max range is 960, meaning they can hit at 720 and still do equivalent damage to an LL/ERLL

People get upset about snipers but I think they are just getting melted by binaries.
It's binaries all day. They pump out too much hitscan dmg too quickly, and at too great a distance. I would recommend increasing the burn time, and/or lowering the range.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 27 November 2023 - 09:07 PM.


#79 foamyesque

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 09:51 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 27 November 2023 - 08:49 PM, said:

Also, if you want to compare, then sure, if you are ok with it, we can make HAG40 have 2 heat, fire every 2 seconds without charge up, but we give it LBX5 spread.


Is this the kind of argument that persuades people making actual balance changes to the game? Spare me, and kindly try not to play dumb.

Look, 'the spread of the weapon makes the weapon feel bad to use' isn't coherent. Plenty of other weapons have spread, and people still use them. HAGs can't be stacked to quite the same degree as most other weapons, sure, because the gauss charge mechanic limits the number you can fire at once, but two HAG30s is still eight pellets, twin HAG40s is still twelve, and a second volley would double those to sixteen and twenty-four respectively (and there are machines that can do quad HAG30s to get that second shot off very quickly).

That's enough for perfectly reasonable spread if you accept that you're firing a spread weapon at someone and not a precision one. The balance changes are trying to nerf the weapon in every way except spread and it's just... it's silly. Put spread back on it -- hell, you can even set up the mechanics of it such that the spread doesn't apply to the first shot to guarantee a bit of consistency if that's so important to you -- and see where that puts things in terms of balance.

Or I guess you could just keep cranking the knob on heat and rebalance the ammo of every other ballistic and also nerf heatsinks and so on, but what a silly way to approach things. You'll need to get the HAG30 up to about 25-30 heat, I figure.

Further, the problem with HAGs isn't (as much) in the 500m bracket. They're extremely potent there, just as they are at long range, but it's at long range where they offer an absolutely unsurpassable alpha-strike capability. There is no other way in the game to get the kind of long-range alpha HAGs offer -- especially when you stack lasers atop -- and that's why hitting the long-range aspect of them with spread is, I think, very important.

The more I think about it, actually, the more I like the idea of forcing them to be fired essentially alone by, instead of using spread, adopting the HGR recoil mechanic. If you co-fire with lasers, which is currently where things are breaking, they'd dance all over the enemy machine right alongside your gauss rounds. If you want precision with the lasers you'd have to stagger-fire, increasing your exposure window and effective volley duration and so giving your target more opportunity to twist damage or fire back. You couldn't do cERPPCs effectively because you'd either be trading off a second HAG for the cERPPC (which is a bad trade) or you're eating the cERPPC HSL penalty, which'd suck. Lockon weapons might evade the screenshake, but they all suck anyway.

That leaves your options for thickening your HAG alpha probably being autocannon and SRMs. SRMs are short ranged so don't offer the midrange synergies that you say you're concerned about and clan autocannons are in competition for the ballistic hardpoints and critical slots. And, with their velocity and cooldown mismatches with the HAGs, they wouldn't synergize nearly as well as lasers currently do.

Edited by foamyesque, 27 November 2023 - 09:51 PM.


#80 feeWAIVER

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 10:02 PM

Well, thematically, a gauss rifle shouldn't have spread, because it's a gauss rifle.





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