106 replies to this topic

[foamyesque]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 09:04 PM, said:

I think the "long range bias" and sniper complaints are largely from binaries, in reality.

Nah. Binaries, because of their tonnage -- you get a free medium laser out of equipping a BL over twin LLs but that gets very hot very fast -- didn't move the needle much. You got a few more IS mechs able to approach (some can even reach!) the standard Clan lasvom number of 72 (2 HLL + 6 ERML), but that's still just... the standard Clan lasvomit package, which also outranges the Sphere version since binaries don't offer you any more range than standard LLs did.

The difference at long ranges is HAGs, end of. Twin HAG30s is only 6 less damage than 2 Binaries + 6 ERMLs, and it does so at a half the heat (and supported by Clantech cooling to boot!) and at longer ranges. With a shorter burst duration as a cherry atop.


Binaries are good, and a much needed upgrade for Sphere lasers, but like... no. They're not the problem here, even at the ranges where they actually do their work.

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 10:02 PM, said:

Well, thematically, a gauss rifle shouldn't have spread, because it's a gauss rifle.

'thematically', HAGs are rapidfire weapons that roll on a cluster table. You can't defend this based on the TT lore.

Edited by foamyesque, 27 November 2023 - 10:06 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

foamyesque, on 27 November 2023 - 10:02 PM, said:

Nah. Binaries, because of their tonnage -- you get a free medium laser out of equipping a BL over twin LLs but that gets very hot very fast -- didn't move the needle much. You got a few more IS mechs able to approach (some can even reach!) the standard Clan lasvom number of 72 (2 HLL + 6 ERML), but that's still just... the standard Clan lasvomit package, which also outranges the Sphere version since binaries don't offer you any more range than standard LLs did.

That's a good point, that's a good explanation for Immobile Warrior.
But binaries hurt in a way that large lasers never did. They are pumping out dmg like 75% faster.

[foamyesque]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

That's a good point, that's a good explanation for Immobile Warrior.
But binaries hurt in a way that large lasers never did. They are pumping out dmg like 75% faster.

Per gun, sure, but in an unquirked machine 2x binaries don't do much 4x LLs couldn't, provided the hardpoints are there. Even if you mix in the two MLs you might get -- with the attendant range reduction in your full alpha -- you're only getting approximately 25% more damage for the same tonnage and you still gotta pay for it in heat.

HSL quirks can change that equation, which is why the 4x BLC 4N Stalker got nailed with a nerf this patch, but BLCs are within the usual range of expectation for 'how fast can a laser machine melt me' IMO.

Whereas you can do a bigger alpha than that quad BLC Stalker, at a longer range, for less tonnage and less heat, by pairing two HAG30s and two cERLLs. That's a 34t package doing 82 points of damage at 810m on 46 heat (and that's the post-nerf numbers!) as compared to the Sphere's 36t package doing 72 damage at 480m for 52 heat. They even have about the same firing window with cERLLs v. BLCs, except that a HAG30's burst time is 0.7s, so the Clan setup has put out 3/4s its damage by the time the Sphere burn is about half done.

[Curccu]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

That's a good point, that's a good explanation for Immobile Warrior.
But binaries hurt in a way that large lasers never did. They are pumping out dmg like 75% faster.

two large lasers hurt as much as BLC, only BLC burn duration is +0,25s vs LL.

[feeWAIVER]

Curccu, on 27 November 2023 - 10:54 PM, said:

two large lasers hurt as much as BLC, only BLC burn duration is +0,25s vs LL.

So they burn 25% longer, but do double dmg.. So they are getting dmg out 75% faster.
That's just baseline, not considering quirks and skills.

So when you are trading, you're not going to take a full burn before you get back in cover.. but the burn that you are getting from a binary melts so much harder than a typical LL would.

[Curccu]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 11:10 PM, said:

So they burn 25% longer, but do double dmg.. So they are getting dmg out 75% faster.
That's just baseline, not considering quirks and skills.

So when you are trading, you're not going to take a full burn before you get back in cover.. but the burn that you are getting from a binary melts so much harder than a typical LL would.

Why do you compare 1 BLC to 1 LL?

[feeWAIVER]

Curccu, on 27 November 2023 - 11:19 PM, said:

Why do you compare 1 BLC to 1 LL?

Because why wouldn't I? They effectively replaced LL.
They match a LL or ERLL optimal dmg at 720m.

Compare them to Clan Heavy, they are still better, faster, cooler.

Let me put it this way-
Prior to the weapons patch, Clan Heavies were intimidating to me.
Binaries are stronger- they pump out dmg faster, with a shorter cooldown- and they have IS quirks backing them up.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 27 November 2023 - 11:33 PM.

[Curccu]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 11:27 PM, said:

Because why wouldn't I? They effectively replaced LL.
They match a LL or ERLL optimal dmg at 720m.

With almost same tonnage and slots you get two LL with normal ghost heat limits you get 4LL or 2BLC.

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 11:27 PM, said:

Compare them to Clan Heavy, they are still better, faster, cooler.

...take more space and are a lot heavier

[feeWAIVER]

Curccu, on 27 November 2023 - 11:39 PM, said:

With almost same tonnage and slots you get two LL with normal ghost heat limits you get 4LL or 2BLC.


...take more space and are a lot heavier

Listen, I don't care about your tonnage, it's irrelevant.
What I'm talking about is the 0.5 seconds it takes me to get back into cover when I'm trading, and how much hitscan dmg I'm taking in that 0.5 seconds. The Binary puts out the most dmg during that 0.5 seconds. About 14% more than the Clan Heavy.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 28 November 2023 - 12:04 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 11:55 PM, said:

Listen, I don't care about your tonnage, it's irrelevant.
What I'm talking about is the 0.5 seconds it takes me to get back into cover when I'm trading, and how much hitscan dmg I'm taking in that 0.5 seconds. The Binary puts out the most dmg during that 0.5 seconds. About 14% more than the Clan Heavy.

2 Large Lasers, which are almost interchangeable with 1 BLC would be even better during that short window, because of an even shorter duration.

[Curccu]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 11:55 PM, said:

Listen, I don't care about your tonnage, it's irrelevant.
What I'm talking about is the 0.5 seconds it takes me to get back into cover when I'm trading, and how much hitscan dmg I'm taking in that 0.5 seconds. The Binary puts out the most dmg during that 0.5 seconds. About 14% more than the Clan Heavy.

How is it irrelevant? if you can do same with LL but better?
Which one of these do more damage in a second tns-4p or tns-4p? or that half second of yours.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Curccu, on 28 November 2023 - 12:37 AM, said:

How is it irrelevant? if you can do same with LL but better?
Which one of these do more damage in a second tns-4p or tns-4p? or that half second of yours.

well, this, obviously https://mwo.nav-alph...033d94ba_TNS-4P
the BLC shines on hardpoint starved chassis

[Curccu]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 28 November 2023 - 12:40 AM, said:

well, this, obviously https://mwo.nav-alph...033d94ba_TNS-4P
the BLC shines on hardpoint starved chassis

extra other weapons wasn't part of the discussion like tonnage for some reason.

[foamyesque]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 11:10 PM, said:

So they burn 25% longer, but do double dmg.. So they are getting dmg out 75% faster.

At the cost of (almost) double the tonnage and half the HSL. Binaries are an upgrade over Sphere LLs but at the 1:2 ratio they exchange at they're not melting you any faster than 2 LLs ever did (somewhat slower, in point of fact). Their utility lies in the spare ton and hardpoint they save, which allows a real but relatively modest improvement in Sphere lasvom builds.

Meanwhile a Clan build can put a 76 point alpha on a 35 ton 'mech and carry ECM on top.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

The only chassis that can exploit the full potential of 4LL + 6ERML is the Crusader 6T, though. 2 BLC + 6 ERML can be setup on many more chassis

[foamyesque]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 28 November 2023 - 01:02 AM, said:

The only chassis that can exploit the full potential of 4LL + 6ERML is the Crusader 6T, though. 2 BLC + 6 ERML can be setup on many more chassis

Yes. In general higher-order Sphere lasvom was stagger-firing LPLs or things of that nature, so BLCs represent an increase in usability and in build variety. But they aren't really killing mechs that much faster than anything else.

Whereas, for example, you could take a twin gauss quad ERLL Dire Whale, something lots of people claimed to be one of the strongest ranged machines in the game pre-HAGs, chop two ERLLs and trade the gauss for twin HAG30s, and get more damage for less tonnage, less exposure time, less hardpoints, and less heat (still true post nerfs!), and then put the whole kit and kaboodle in a Marauder IIC-D because it weighs so much less.

That outdamages quad cERPPCs by 25%. And it's arguably more accurate between the higher velocities and cERPPC splash. And it's cooler, obviously. And it can be fired all at once.

Edited by foamyesque, 28 November 2023 - 02:32 AM.

[Frost_Byte]

The6thMessenger, on 27 November 2023 - 08:38 PM, said:

Real quick tho, why is this an issue with HAGs but not MRM40s or LRMs for that matter? I didn't really asked this before, because I don't have access to backend engineering side of things, so I'd like to just take the word of those that actually work on it. But since we're tackling this, maybe it needs to be addressed?

What makes HAGs kinda different? Because if it's just a matter of projectiles then the game has been handling a LOT of active projectiles by the mere virtue of MRMs and LRMs that can be fired enmasse, to a bullet-hell degree. And I think that an unguided non-homing projectile that hits faster and quicker to clean up as a result, is a lot less taxing to the server than a homing projectile that has to go through a pre-determined arc and change it's flight pattern to home.

Pretty sure HAGs is just the symptom, not the cause.

Someone asked this on the feedback server, I think it may have been you? lol

So ballistic projectiles and MRMs/SRMs/LRMs are very different when it comes to server load. Missiles fire on a fixed vector/trajectory, their path is calculated and they follow that path. For SRMs and MRMs, it's just a path that expands to the spread stat and then flies straight. For LRMs or ATMs, it calculated a 3(may be 4 or 5 don't quote me on that number) point arc from firing to your target and it'll just follow that path. They're very simple, just following a clear cut direction.

Ballistic projectiles on the other hand have full physics simulation. They are impacted by gravity and can even ragdoll to an extent. The fact that these items are "fluid" in a sense and can be acted upon by external forces and missiles aren't make missiles a lot less strenuous on the server. I can't say if that design was intentional or not since I wasn't there, but generally speaking bloat of ballistic projectiles is something we want to avoid while bloat of missiles is fine. Even LB20s can push the ticket a bit and someone who understands a lot more than I do advised me not to exceed the shell count of cUAC20, which is 8 per burst. That's how we achieved HAG40 being 8 shells of 5 damage. Missiles, on the other hand, can be spammed much more liberally.

[Ignatius Audene]

How much work would it be to get rid of this behaviour? I mean seriously the banana trajectories are already minimised bye increased velocity. Do we rly loose so much bye ballistics flying straight? I don't think it is worth the issues on hit detection.

[Moadebe]

feeWAIVER, on 27 November 2023 - 11:55 PM, said:

Listen, I don't care about your tonnage, it's irrelevant.
What I'm talking about is the 0.5 seconds it takes me to get back into cover when I'm trading, and how much hitscan dmg I'm taking in that 0.5 seconds. The Binary puts out the most dmg during that 0.5 seconds. About 14% more than the Clan Heavy.

Tonnage is everything....what?

Tonnage allows the ability to boat more weapons, more heatsinks, more targeting computer to push the range. Other than critical slots it dictates what you can run on the mech....period. The stacking of weapons on a heavy/assault mech COUPLED with the duration and hitscan and all your other argument might be better.

Only focusing on the duration as an argument and ignoring the other factors at play is not a good argument dude.

I could see making the HSL of binaries where if you fire more than two at once it hits the same ghost heat as firing the equivalent amount of LL.

Meaning. BLC is essentially equal to 2 LL. Minus one ton. You fire 3 BLC = firing 6 LL ...ghost heat and all. 4BLC = 8 LL

You see where im going with this (i hope). Make it absolutely punishing to push that boundary, but this type of thing wouldn't hurt the low hardpoint count mechs who really benefited from them being added to the game.

You are worried about making equal trades via the duration of the weapon when the sheer amount of firepower being brought with the capacity to handle them is the problem.

[Moadebe]

Frost_Byte, on 28 November 2023 - 01:22 AM, said:

Someone asked this on the feedback server, I think it may have been you? lol

So ballistic projectiles and MRMs/SRMs/LRMs are very different when it comes to server load. Missiles fire on a fixed vector/trajectory, their path is calculated and they follow that path. For SRMs and MRMs, it's just a path that expands to the spread stat and then flies straight. For LRMs or ATMs, it calculated a 3(may be 4 or 5 don't quote me on that number) point arc from firing to your target and it'll just follow that path. They're very simple, just following a clear cut direction.

Ballistic projectiles on the other hand have full physics simulation. They are impacted by gravity and can even ragdoll to an extent. The fact that these items are "fluid" in a sense and can be acted upon by external forces and missiles aren't make missiles a lot less strenuous on the server. I can't say if that design was intentional or not since I wasn't there, but generally speaking bloat of ballistic projectiles is something we want to avoid while bloat of missiles is fine. Even LB20s can push the ticket a bit and someone who understands a lot more than I do advised me not to exceed the shell count of cUAC20, which is 8 per burst. That's how we achieved HAG40 being 8 shells of 5 damage. Missiles, on the other hand, can be spammed much more liberally.

So lemme ask you this then.

Because I know it's being talked about.

Knowing this bit of information (which I am all about info), and the talk of adding splash to these projectiles (HAGs). Wouldn't that add more calculations per volley if splash was added on? I mean I know this is talking about trajectory and bullet drop and all that. But wouldn't that add more calculations at the end target to determine where damage was calculated and how much damage? Since we do deal in decimal points and it would essentially have to calculate two damage tables (one of the pinpoint, one for the splash?) Not to mention the checks of available splash targets next to the impact. (Say you hit CT...calculations have to be done on either both adjacent components, then interior components in those adjacent components.)

Just a genuine curious question.

(and yes still fighting against the splash on HAGs)