65 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

New jarls just came out and confirmed my suspicions.
Since August, the game has been increasingly frustrating.
Just checked my November stats, and they are worse.
Cross referenced a couple other light players I know, their stats are sucking since August as well.

Conclusion: Cauldron overcooked the game for Assaults. I'm assuming there was a mandate to OP assaults, because PGI wanted to sell a gaggle of new Assaults over the past few months.

Have fun with your slow rolling laser vomit, kids.
It's been swell, but the swellings gone down.
The game is trash now.

[pbiggz]

Lights have always occupied a weird spot in this game, compounded by alot of the player base, especially battletech enthusiasts, not really understanding what they are or how they need to fit into this game.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

My hatred of Assaults just got bolstered a teeny bit

[Weeny Machine]

feeWAIVER, on 01 December 2023 - 10:46 AM, said:

New jarls just came out and confirmed my suspicions.
Since August, the game has been increasingly frustrating.
Just checked my November stats, and they are worse.
Cross referenced a couple other light players I know, their stats are sucking since August as well.

Conclusion: Cauldron overcooked the game for Assaults. I'm assuming there was a mandate to OP assaults, because PGI wanted to sell a gaggle of new Assaults over the past few months.

Have fun with your slow rolling laser vomit, kids.
It's been swell, but the swellings gone down.
The game is trash now.

The problems is that the vocal people of the cauldron (there are really sensible ones but it seems they get silenced) have no idea what risk-vs-reward decisions in game design actually mean and what vital role they play.
In an ideal case, you want to have a high risk gameplay potentially grant you the most reward.

In MWO this would be close range skirmishing or even brawling simply because you need to get close, make yourself visible, need heat management, need good situational awareness etc The same goes for DPS builds - a long exposure should be highly rewarded.

Now, Cauldron balance: camping + huge alphas + waddling into cover to coold down/drawing fire in mid-/long range = FAT PROFIT
The risk is low but thanks to the "balancing" the reward is substantially higher than getting close

And that's why this game has become monotonous and heavily leaning toward lumbering mechs which can dish out sick alphas which is nothing but a glorified whack-a-mole. If I wanted that, I would play other shooters which are more modern and have a huge community

Edited by Weeny Machine, 01 December 2023 - 11:37 AM.

[pbiggz]

Just a corollary thought; if you were to build a mech game from the ground up, like MWO (Where the objective is to kill the other mechs) you wouldn't bother to include anything smaller than a phoenix hawk. Below that size, diminishing returns from the lack of weight and durability start to be intolerable, and the roles those mechs are meant to carry out (recon mostly) don't exist in this game. I think thats probably why I get a kick out of the light mediums (40-45 tonners) far more than I ever got out of 30-35 tonners.

Regarding the cauldron approach: I dont think there's a deliberate intent to kill lights off. On the contrary, I think there hasn't been an attempt to do anything to them at all and that's the problem: neglect. As they've shaped the meta, they've left light mechs behind, and they were already by all measures, the worst weight class in the game.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 December 2023 - 11:39 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

pbiggz, on 01 December 2023 - 11:38 AM, said:

Just a corollary thought; if you were to build a mech game from the ground up, like MWO (Where the objective is to kill the other mechs) you wouldn't bother to include anything smaller than a phoenix hawk. Below that size, diminishing returns from the lack of weight and durability start to be intolerable, and the roles those mechs are meant to carry out (recon mostly) don't exist in this game. I think thats probably why I get a kick out of the light mediums (40-45 tonners) far more than I ever got out of 30-35 tonners.

Regarding the cauldron approach: I dont think there's a deliberate intent to kill lights off. On the contrary, I think there hasn't been an attempt to do anything to them at all and that's the problem: neglect. As they've shaped the meta, they've left light mechs behind, and they were already by all measures, the worst weight class in the game.

It likely is not deliberate, it's a side effect of other things, and not all assaults are battlefield dominating monsters, but it would be nice if lights that aren't Incubi, Firestarters or Urbies could get a fairer shake.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 01 December 2023 - 11:38 AM, said:

the roles those mechs are meant to carry out (recon mostly) don't exist in this game.

I mean they do exist, lights are pretty essential for positional info because they can get it with the least risk, but to your point, they sacrifice too much in firepower (this is more to do with weapon tonnage than anything) but also too much armor to do much else (conquest does give them a bit of a boost as well).

I've mulled over this for years and I think ultimately it comes down to contrast between the lighter mechs and heavier mechs is too high, but also that they don't really match up with this game. People want to treat weight classes as a role classification too and that's just not how it works in TT. Things like the Hammer (35 tonner that goes the speed of the Cougar) is really great in TT because it is cheap for BV, it has a nice firepower/armor/BV ratio, unlike the Fire Moth D which is good for people who like to watch their BV go up in flames with one lucky hit. In this game it would be garbage because the game tries to keep equivalent team sizes (meaning no spamming of small cheap units).

Lighter mechs need a lot more tonnage for weapons and armor while keeping their speed but also need to be bigger (at least the 20-25 tonners) to limit the power of facehugging while assaults really just need to be smaller to reduce the easiness of isolating sections of some of the bigger mechs. That and mechs like the Cougar, Urbanmech, etc should really not be light mechs because they are quirked and built to be more like medium/heavies than they are lights, same with most of the 40 tonners which are really more like large light mechs. Essentially all the pseudo-mechs shouldn't be a thing (so pseudo lights, pseudo assaults, etc)

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 December 2023 - 11:50 AM.

[pbiggz]

the check engine light, on 01 December 2023 - 11:46 AM, said:

It likely is not deliberate, it's a side effect of other things, and not all assaults are battlefield dominating monsters, but it would be nice if lights that aren't Incubi, Firestarters or Urbies could get a fairer shake.

Agreed, and absent a rescale, I think the only way to do that is a lot of aggressive durability quirks, and weapon quirks. There's no such thing as recon in this game, so the best I can see for alot of lights to turn them into essentially, weirdly shaped medium mechs, and they need quirk support that provides that level of enhancement to them. There's not really any other way worth the trouble.

[caravann]

Light mech supremacy

(1) VOTOMs - The Unkillable Soldier - Sabaton AMV - YouTube

[Heavy Money]

feeWAIVER, on 01 December 2023 - 10:46 AM, said:

New jarls just came out and confirmed my suspicions.
Since August, the game has been increasingly frustrating.
Just checked my November stats, and they are worse.
Cross referenced a couple other light players I know, their stats are sucking since August as well.

Conclusion: Cauldron overcooked the game for Assaults. I'm assuming there was a mandate to OP assaults, because PGI wanted to sell a gaggle of new Assaults over the past few months.

Have fun with your slow rolling laser vomit, kids.
It's been swell, but the swellings gone down.
The game is trash now.

Its not some assault conspiracy. Its because the new weapons. Which are mostly heavy and get put on bigger mechs. The new weapons have taken some tuning, especially with issues like the 4BLC STK-4N.

Also, they've added new mechs that aren't assaults recently too. Haske and Abaddon, Gorewing, Blight, Onyx. Its an absurd notion.

Edited by Heavy Money, 01 December 2023 - 02:37 PM.

[Rabid Imp]

The biggest problem (imo) that light face is the insane alphas. It was fine before heavies were introduced, then it got a little worse. Now we have binaries in HAGs, so if someone gets a bead on you for less than a sec they can do amazing damage without stellar aim. The defense lights (fleas, locusts etc...) usually have is their speed, but if your doing 70 damage alphas in 1.5 secs, you doing like 20 in .5 and that is many lights complete leg armor, 1/2 their torsos or CT etc...That grazing damage eventually added up, but now it's much quicker because the damage has increased so much.

Hits in the past that would turn your armor red are now turning your structure orange.

Edited by Rabid Imp, 01 December 2023 - 02:54 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Rabid Imp, on 01 December 2023 - 02:38 PM, said:

The biggest problem (imo) that light face is the insane alphas. It was fine before heavies were introduced, then it got a little worse. Now we have binaries in HAGs, so if someone gets a bead on you for less than a sec they can do amazing damage without stellar aim. The defense lights (fleas, locusts etc...) usually have is their speed, but if your doing 70 damage alphas in 1.5 secs, you doing like 20 in .5 and that is many lights complete leg armor, 1/2 their torsos or CT etc...That grazing damage eventually added up, but now it's much quicker because the damage has increased so much.

Hits in the past that would turn your armor red are now turning your structure orange.

We've always had lasvom alphas this big. BLCs let IS do what clan has been dong all along. And HAGs are only good against stationary lights.

Actually, it used to be much worse for lights when the meta was 5cLPL on clan mechs like BAS, RFL-IIC, WHK, etc. Before ghost heat changes you could alpha that and just delete lights. It was like that for a good year.
Also, AC20+3Snubs was much worse for lights and that got nerfed.

Edited by Heavy Money, 01 December 2023 - 02:51 PM.

[PurplePuke]

Goodbye whoever you are and whatever you're talking about.

[Battlemaster56]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 December 2023 - 11:48 AM, said:

Lighter mechs need a lot more tonnage for weapons and armor while keeping their speed but also need to be bigger (at least the 20-25 tonners) to limit the power of facehugging while assaults really just need to be smaller to reduce the easiness of isolating sections of some of the bigger mechs. That and mechs like the Cougar, Urbanmech, etc should really not be light mechs because they are quirked and built to be more like medium/heavies than they are lights, same with most of the 40 tonners which are really more like large light mechs. Essentially all the pseudo-mechs shouldn't be a thing (so pseudo lights, pseudo assaults, etc)

I would suggest removing or heavily lessening the burdening of the minimal heat sink rule for light and mediums, I did talk about this before it would really help with lights alucate some that tonnage for more heavier weapons or ammo and make them less reliant on ammo quirks and it make heat neutral builds feel less terrible since that wasted tonnage can be used for more ammo to stay in fights longer or big weapon builds don't have to cut corners just fill some minimum requirement rules.

And I agree 20-25 tonners need to be bigger a bit with some assaults need to shrink, with 55 tonners join in so they won't be as big as some heavies.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Battlemaster56, on 01 December 2023 - 03:53 PM, said:

I would suggest removing or heavily lessening the burdening of the minimal heat sink rule for light and mediums, I did talk about this before it would really help with lights alucate some that tonnage for more heavier weapons or ammo and make them less reliant on ammo quirks and it make heat neutral builds feel less terrible since that wasted tonnage can be used for more ammo to stay in fights longer or big weapon builds don't have to cut corners just fill some minimum requirement rules.

That's a bandaid, it really doesn't fix much, since at most you get 4 tons, which really isn't enough to make ballistics or missiles really that much more viable on them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 December 2023 - 04:18 PM.

[Besh]

Battlemaster56, on 01 December 2023 - 03:53 PM, said:

[...]

And I agree 20-25 tonners need to be bigger a bit with some assaults need to shrink, with 55 tonners join in so they won't be as big as some heavies.

Blanketchanging 20tonner size is not a good Idea . Will make chassis without ECM/Stealth suffer way more than others .

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Besh, on 01 December 2023 - 04:19 PM, said:

Blanketchanging 20tonner size is not a good Idea . Will make chassis without ECM/Stealth suffer way more than others .

The idea is that they get significantly more armor/structure in a trade-off. So imagine if they were 40-50 tonner sized but had the armor/structure of a 50 tonner.

The goal is to remove the issue their TT counterparts also suffer from, all it takes is a single lucky or well placed shot to absolutely ruin their day (either by ripping them in half or outright destroying them) but also make them less obnoxious to play against as 20 tonners in particular are notorious in lower tiers for ankle-biting (which does not have fun counterplay either).

[Besh]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 December 2023 - 04:37 PM, said:

The idea is that they get significantly more armor/structure in a trade-off. So imagine if they were 40-50 tonner sized but had the armor/structure of a 50 tonner.

The goal is to remove the issue their TT counterparts also suffer from, all it takes is a single lucky or well placed shot to absolutely ruin their day (either by ripping them in half or outright destroying them) but also make them less obnoxious to play against as 20 tonners in particular are notorious in lower tiers for ankle-biting (which does not have fun counterplay either).

Just call them "Heavies" then ?

With the idea of "we're going to deviate pretty far from TT" being prominent, I fear MW:O is loosing more and more of its uniqueness in the realm of PvP shooters...which incidentally comes from it still being rooted in BT .

Ankle biting is not something all 20ts are equally capable of . Instead of changing the entire class - or even making it obsolete - because of some outliers, look at what makes Pirate Banes, Piranhas and Fleas so murderous in QP .

Additionally, it takes skilled Pilots to pilot the most irritating 20t Chassis effectively . In the hands of unexperienced Pilots, they die quickly often .

Edited by Besh, 01 December 2023 - 05:32 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Besh, on 01 December 2023 - 04:43 PM, said:

Just call them "Heavies" then ?

Heavies except they move +100kph. I think the issue is that in this game, weight class is a pretty meaningless classification. Ultimately roles come down to the balance of speed/firepower/armor, the problem in this game is that lights have traditionally sacrificed too much in the other two categories because of just how TT construction rules and equipment tonnages work out.

Besh, on 01 December 2023 - 04:43 PM, said:

With the idea of "we're going to deviate pretty far from TT" being prominent, I fear MW:O is loosing more and more of its uniqueness in the realm of PvP shooters...which incidentally comes from it still being rooted in BT .

The uniqueness of Mechwarrior is that it is a slower paced tactical hero PVP arena shooter with locational damage/shooting. Mechwarrior could be thought of as a hero shooter before they were even a genre or type of game. Tabletop rules hold the game back quite a bit because it was designed for a turn-based strategy game. Expecting translation to work out is just yeah, absolutely silly.

[Besh]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 December 2023 - 04:53 PM, said:

Heavies except they move +100kph. I think the issue is that in this game, weight class is a pretty meaningless classification. Ultimately roles come down to the balance of speed/firepower/armor, the problem in this game is that lights have traditionally sacrificed too much in the other two categories because of just how TT construction rules and equipment tonnages work out.

So the Idea is to equalize the weightclasses ?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 December 2023 - 04:53 PM, said:

The uniqueness of Mechwarrior is that it is a slower paced tactical hero PVP arena shooter with locational damage/shooting. Mechwarrior could be thought of as a hero shooter before they were even a genre or type of game. T

The points you make just add to my thoughts of MW:O more and more becoming a rather generic shooter . You don't mention build considerations/restrictions ( which is understandeable looking at for instance the blunt removal of ammo restrictions through quirks on some Chassis ).

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 December 2023 - 04:53 PM, said:

Tabletop rules hold the game back quite a bit because it was designed for a turn-based strategy game. Expecting translation to work out is just yeah, absolutely silly.

Why do you think I expect 1:1 translation of TT rules into MW:O ? Does this boilerplate response have to be repeated mantralike anytime someone mentions MW:O being rooted in BT, and advocating for MW:O striving to stay unique in making conscious efforts to at least resemble the Game its based on in some aspects ?

Many of the people having initially founded MW:O did so because they wanted a shooter markedly different from any other shooter, and somewhat resembling BT . I know, thats over a decade ago . But this is one of the things that made MW:O possible . Seeing a drive to "normalize" more and more aspects of it does not instill confidence tbh . Why is it deemed necessary to deviate from BT in as many aspects as possible ?

Edited by Besh, 01 December 2023 - 05:24 PM.