65 replies to this topic

[Sierra3]

One of the problems I see with Lights, is that the roles/tasks they are/were designed for are mostly ignored/out of sync in terms of what the 'rewards' are from matches.

Scouting/recon, flank protection/pickets, seizing objectives, spotting are not really rewarded... what is, is pack hunting/ambushing.

Lights were not intended to go toe-to-toe with heavies/assaults, except to finish off the weakened/heavily damaged mechs so that heavier friendly mechs could switch to more immediate/dangerous threats.

With the scoring emphasis on damage dealt and kills, the purpose of Light mechs is basically ignored in game.

[Meep Meep]

Weird. I play lights almost exclusively and am constantly gaining psr keeping my tier bar pegged at max. Which lights are the op having issues with?

[Heavy Money]

Sierra3, on 01 December 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

One of the problems I see with Lights, is that the roles/tasks they are/were designed for are mostly ignored/out of sync in terms of what the 'rewards' are from matches.

Scouting/recon, flank protection/pickets, seizing objectives, spotting are not really rewarded... what is, is pack hunting/ambushing.

Lights were not intended to go toe-to-toe with heavies/assaults, except to finish off the weakened/heavily damaged mechs so that heavier friendly mechs could switch to more immediate/dangerous threats.

With the scoring emphasis on damage dealt and kills, the purpose of Light mechs is basically ignored in game.

You seem to be under the impression that lights can't deal damage and kill things. This is simply wrong.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Besh, on 01 December 2023 - 05:10 PM, said:

So the Idea is to equalize the weightclasses ?

In power, yes, while also making them more equal across skill levels. Lights can be really powerful in lower skilled environments, but as you go up, they typically become less impactful, acting more like vultures than opening fraggers from the counter strike world.

Besh, on 01 December 2023 - 05:10 PM, said:

The points you make just add to my thoughts of MW:O more and more becoming a rather generic shooter . You don't mention build considerations/restrictions ( which is understandeable looking at for instance the blunt removal of ammo restrictions through quirks on some Chassis ).

Most of the building mechanics in this game, are complexity and don't add to the depth in the actual game. They become a build optimization thing rather than a gameplay thing which is partially what keeps this game from being accessible. I used to spend a lot of time in the mechlab but it doesn't actually add anything to the game other than slow progression of some players.

Besh, on 01 December 2023 - 05:10 PM, said:

Why do you think I expect 1:1 translation of TT rules into MW:O ?

Because of what follows, you may not want 1:1 translation, but the "spirit" of mechwarrior has nothing to do with TT rules.

Besh, on 01 December 2023 - 05:10 PM, said:

Many of the people having initially founded MW:O did so because they wanted a shooter markedly different from any other shooter, and somewhat resembling BT. Seeing a drive to "normalize" more and more aspects of it does not instill confidence tbh . Why is it deemed necessary to deviate from BT in as many aspects as possible ?

Yes, but that's not what keeps the game alive. I'd argue MWO stayed alive in spite of trying to recreate MW3 multiplayer with some limits rather than learn from MW4. The drive ultimately comes from unreconcilable issues with the disparities ingrained into TT. Again, they are completely different games so keeping the disparities just doesn't make sense. I mean is keeping a 35 tonner a 35 tonner actually essential to the spirit of the game? Is a large laser being 5 tons compared to the 1 ton medium laser essential to the spirit of the game? I'd actually argue no.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 December 2023 - 07:44 PM.

[Jugger Grimrod]

Lights can out-perform Assaults in regards to DMG on EVERY drop. Period.

LET THAT SINK IN.

Assault Drivers: All of that weight, and tonnage, and firepower is absolutely USELESS if you are getting whipped by a 20-tonner on an average screenshot. When a Light can OUT-DAMAGE an ASSAULT with Firepower, then what is the value of an Assault?!

(Hint: It's not your Firepower.)

Edited by Jugger Grimrod, 02 December 2023 - 03:49 PM.

[aardappelianen]

Meep Meep, on 01 December 2023 - 07:14 PM, said:

Weird. I play lights almost exclusively and am constantly gaining psr keeping my tier bar pegged at max. Which lights are the op having issues with?

osiris, mist lynx ?

[Vxheous]

Jugger Grimrod, on 01 December 2023 - 07:55 PM, said:

Lights can out-perform Assaults in regards in DMG on EVERY drop. Period.

LET THAT SINK IN.

Assault Drivers: All of that weight, and tonnage, and firepower is absolutely USELESS if you are getting whipped by a 20-tonner on an average screenshot. When a Light can OUT-DAMAGE an ASSAULT with Firepower, then what is the value of an Assault?!

(Hint: It's not your Firepower.)

It takes me far less effort to generate a lot of damage from an assault mech than it does to generate a lot of damage from a light mech. This is statistically proven with data on Jarl's list that shows assaults on average have far higher matchscores than lights. I am highly proficient at all weight classes

What you're describing is a (lack of) skill issue.

Edited by Vxheous, 01 December 2023 - 10:01 PM.

[Ravni]

Most lights are very strong in general but many of them have a fairly high skill floor relative to stuff like ECM lasvomit heavies. Even then, some of the strongest quickplay lights like ECM+ERML Kit Fox & HLL+LMG Incubus are very easy to play and do well with.

Even in tier-1, it is routine to see most light mechs running in straight lines, standing still while firing or standing still while otherwise exposed to enemies, trading 1v1 head-on against heavier mechs that are staring at them, or often just running off solo and dying after suicide diving 1v4 against a bunch of enemies at the start of the match.

[Bud Crue]

Meep Meep, on 01 December 2023 - 07:14 PM, said:

Weird. I play lights almost exclusively and am constantly gaining psr keeping my tier bar pegged at max. Which lights are the op having issues with?

Run the hero Osiris, or a Panther 10P, or the more blaze' Adders, exclusively for a month, then tell me how the PSR bar looks. Yes, there are some amazing lights, but there also some dross lights...just like every other class.

[Meep Meep]

Ok but thats isolated mechs. There are good osiris variants. The er med quirked one comes to mind. Some of the adders are just wonderful too. The 2x er ppc one is bonkers good with the quirks. The op would consider assaults to be the end all be all but there are a boatload of stinkers there too.

[RickySpanish]

I started playing Lights more often in the last several months, to the point where I now play them more or less exclusively. They're a powerful class, capable of obtaining exceptional firing angles and exerting map control right from the start of the game. I would not say they are underpowered by any stretch. However, like with Assaults, the full range of performance is rather large. If you make a mistake, you are punished hard.

Bud Crue, on 01 December 2023 - 09:09 PM, said:

Run the hero Osiris, or a Panther 10P, or the more blaze' Adders, exclusively for a month, then tell me how the PSR bar looks. Yes, there are some amazing lights, but there also some dross lights...just like every other class.

I ran the Osiris in November for all but one of my matches. Not as many games as I had wanted but it was solo and I think with more practice it could do just fine. The 'Mech as a whole needs love though, as right now the 4D is the only playable variant.

[Besh]

RickySpanish, on 01 December 2023 - 11:34 PM, said:

I started playing Lights more often in the last several months, to the point where I now play them more or less exclusively. They're a powerful class, capable of obtaining exceptional firing angles and exerting map control right from the start of the game. I would not say they are underpowered by any stretch. However, like with Assaults, the full range of performance is rather large. If you make a mistake, you are punished hard.

[...]

For years now, I almost exclusively run the LCT-1E when going Light - I just love that 'Mech . But now I want to get used to more Light Chassis . Which ones would you recommend ?

Meep Meep, on 01 December 2023 - 11:07 PM, said:

Ok but thats isolated mechs. There are good osiris variants. The er med quirked one comes to mind. Some of the adders are just wonderful too. The 2x er ppc one is bonkers good with the quirks. The op would consider assaults to be the end all be all but there are a boatload of stinkers there too.

Recommend me some Light Chassis please ?

Edited by Besh, 02 December 2023 - 01:52 AM.

[Besh]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 December 2023 - 07:43 PM, said:

~snipeddysnip

So, you want to make 'Mechs make perform equally across the Classes, you dont think 'Mechlab adds anything to the Game, and you think "Spirit of Mechwarrior" does have nothing to do with TT . I am not mentioning MW:O having to be true to TT, or having to resemble TT Rules, did you notice ?

How about BT, does 'Mechwarrior have something to do with that ?

I am not sure its correct to state "People wanting a markedly different shooter from any other is not keeping MW:O alive ." It IS alive, and kicking, 11 years after publication - "despite" it being pretty unique .

Wait, did I write despite ? I meant to write because of .

Is transforming MW:O into another generic shooter - just 'Mechskinned, and in the process moving it as far off its BT roots as possible - what you are aiming for ? Sounds like it . How do you evaluate the Chances for MW:O to survive in that market ?

Edited by Besh, 02 December 2023 - 03:02 AM.

[HauptmanT]

Hyperbole much?

My November stats show a near 50% light play rate. I had a 9% overall increase. Obviously this is just another case of OPPERATOR ERROR!

Git Guud.

[HauptmanT]

Besh, on 02 December 2023 - 01:50 AM, said:

For years now, I almost exclusively run the LCT-1E when going Light - I just love that 'Mech . But now I want to get used to more Light Chassis . Which ones would you recommend ?



Recommend me some Light Chassis please ?

Locust and Flea are my fave's, of course. However...

Spider is just insanely tanky. Jumping spider with its 13 jump jets is just stupid fun. You arent going to do massive dmg with 2 er meds, but you can annoy the heck out of everyone and force them to give up good possitions. Other spiders are less fun but still good.

Osiris, the jumping Osiris, like the spider is just too much fun. One of my best ever duels in this game was in that mech. I saw a Arctic Cheater trying to get behind the team, so chased him down, and had the greatest ever contest of flight and fire on Solaris you could imagine. God I wish I could have recorded that. Other Osirii have their place, but I'm usually drawn to my fun one. 6 er smalls, 8 jump jets, and locust speed. What's not to love? (the size of it)

Commando. 3 medium pulse and just a hair more speed than a Locust. Couple days ago, got into a duel with an Atlas that took too long to get out of spawn. The poor boy never stood a chance. Tiny like a locust with spider like hitboxes.

Kitfox, use it like it's supposed to be used. ECM, triple AMS, and short range stabbin weapons (hmgs + small pulse or srms). Cover your team to keep enemy flankers off of them. Then end game get in and get stabby. It'll punch well above it's weight when that single flanker tries to get sneaky, feeding you free solo kills.

Play with those four until you get comfortable with the different light play styles. Then just go buy all the lights. Once you understand how to use em, they are all good. Even the bad ones. Well ok, maybe not the Panther. I just cant get that darned thing to work.

Edited by HauptmanT, 02 December 2023 - 03:30 AM.

[Besh]

HauptmanT, on 02 December 2023 - 02:46 AM, said:

Locust and Flea are my fave's, of course. However...

Spider is just insanely tanky. Jumping spider with its 13 jump jets is just stupid fun. You arent going to do massive dmg with 2 er meds, but you can annoy the heck out of everyone and force them to give up good possitions. Other spiders are less fun but still good.

Osiris, the jumping Osiris, like the spider is just too much fun. One of my best ever duels in this game was in that mech. I saw a Arctic Cheater trying to get behind the team, so chased him down, and had the greatest ever contest of flight and fire on Solaris you could imagine. God I wish I could have recorded that. Other Osirii have their place, but I'm usually drawn to my fun one. 6 er smalls, 8 jump jets, and locust speed. What's not to love? (the size of it)

Commando. 3 medium pulse and just a hair more speed than a Locust. Couple days ago, got into a duel with an Atlas that took too long to get out of spawn. The poor boy never stood a chance. Tiny like a locust with spider like hitboxes.

Kitfox, use it like it's supposed to be used. ECM, triple AMS, and short range stabbin weapons (hmgs + small pulse or srms). Cover your team to keep enemy flankers off of them. Then end game get in and get stabby. It'll punch well above it's weight when that single flanker tries to get sneaky, feeding you free solo kills.

Play with those four until you get comfortable with the different light play styles. Then just go buy all the lights. Once you understand how to use em, they are all good. Even the bad ones.

Wonderfull, thanks . Ill try those out over time, one after the other . Any Variant specific advice on those 4 Chassis ?

Edited by Besh, 02 December 2023 - 03:23 AM.

[HauptmanT]

Besh, on 02 December 2023 - 03:21 AM, said:

Wonderfull, thanks . Ill try those out over time, one after the other . Any Variant specific advice on those 4 Chassis ?

I dont know specific variant numbers, that's why I included a description of loadouts.

[martian]

Besh, on 02 December 2023 - 01:50 AM, said:

For years now, I almost exclusively run the LCT-1E when going Light - I just love that 'Mech . But now I want to get used to more Light Chassis . Which ones would you recommend ?

It depends on what do you expect from your new light 'Mech.

If you expect something like a slightly different Locust, just buy Flea.

On the other hand, 'Mechs such as Puma or Cougar are also in the light 'Mech category, but they are markedly distinct.

[Meep Meep]

Besh, on 02 December 2023 - 01:50 AM, said:

Recommend me some Light Chassis please ?

These are all best for solo dropping and running the flanks and rear abusing terrain to get in your shots. Short range lights have some very high dps but they are much more prone to getting vaporized by everything. Great for lance work where only one of the lance can be focused at a time on isolated targets but more or less death to a single light unless you are sporting some very high skill levels or facing off vs a tater tot.


fle-20

fle-fa

fle-fa

jvn-11f

jvn-11a

lct-1m

lct-pb

lct-pb

osr-2v

sdr-5d

adr-prime

ach-prime

ach-prime

inc-5

inc-3

pir-a

[HauptmanT]

Just because I'm enjoying this, I'll expand on the play styles of the various lights.

Knife Fighter: This is you usual super fast and small light like the Locust. Wait until you see someone run off alone, or wait until the brawl distracts the reds, then get in and get stabby. Fear nothing as you can handily defeat everything (except streak boats). It's all about point blank dps, speed, and being hard to hit.

Flanker: Bigger but fast lights (and speedy mediums). Use longer range weapons to poke from the flanks or rear and just be a general nuisance. Your job isnt big damage, it's to distract or force movement. Osiris, Incubus, Cicada, etc...

Backstabber: Massive alphas and ok-ish speed. Get in behind and hopefully one shot snipers. Jenner IIc and Piranha are perfect for this. Watch Sneaky Snek vids to see how he handles movement. High risk, high reward.

Support: Provide more firepower to your bigger team mates with the Puma or Cougar, or defense with the Kitfox. Various slow mechs must be played this way, as they cant run from other lights off on their own.

Anything less than 110 kph is slow. 130 kph is ok-ish. 150+ is fast.

Edited by HauptmanT, 02 December 2023 - 04:24 AM.