22 replies to this topic

[Grospoliner]

What determines line of sight for targeting and lock on?

I was just fighting a Thunderbolt who was popping in and out of cover with more than 50% of his mech showing, and I could not get a lock on him even though he was clearly visible (I shot him with HPPC multiple times so it isn't like terrain was blocking my line of fire).

It was abysmally stupid.

[Vonbach]

If it were up to the devs they wouldn't have lock ons at all. Honestly I don't know.

[w0qj]

Was it a TDR-10SE with ECM?
Perhaps that would explain your difficulty in getting a lock-on...

[Grospoliner]

w0qj, on 13 December 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

Was it a TDR-10SE with ECM? Perhaps that would explain your difficulty in getting a lock-on...

I don't believe it had an ECM since I had no problems locking when he poked out far enough for the game to register I had line of sight. I was also running TAG, BAP, and ASP.

[Tarteso]

You have to aim (and hold) a tiny area around to the center of target red square. The lock on area isn't so big since the 21-AUG-2018 patch nerf. Look at the picture under Weapon Lock changes

[LordNothing]

i want to say the mech's center mass is used as the center of targeting. there might be an offset. offset to head component would be better because that's where the sensors are installed. but i have a feeling they weren't thinking that deep when they designed it. center mass also avoids a lot of linear transformations and might speed things up.

whatever points are used, you just do a ray cast to see if the ray hits terrain or something else on the way, i think it ignores mechs though because you can target through players just fine. no hits indicates clear line of sight.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 December 2023 - 06:03 PM.

[RockmachinE]

My first guess was an invisible walls, as there's tonns, but you said your PPC hit. You don't really need to worry about getting a lock at the end of the day. If youre using LRMs, ATMs, just dumbfire in a situation like this.

[KursedVixen]

Vonbach, on 13 December 2023 - 01:52 PM, said:

If it were up to the devs they wouldn't have lock ons at all. Honestly I don't know.

Cauldron not devs Cauldron does all balance changes now.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

some thoughts:

1.) he's probably under friendly ecm @no lock

2.) maybe it wasn't enough time for a lock

3.) if you're shooting ppcs of any kind, what do you NEED the lock for anyway?
yes, it's nice to see the paperdoll, especially lategame, but "hitting stuff" is good enough, and there's no "need" for a lock - at all.
figure out the basics like hitting & killing things while not getting killed yourself too often, and the rest will follow

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 14 December 2023 - 07:47 AM.

[Besh]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 14 December 2023 - 07:42 AM, said:

~snip

3.) if you're shooting ppcs of any kind, what do you NEED the lock for anyway?
yes, it's nice to see the paperdoll, especially lategame, but "hitting stuff" is good enough, and there's no "need" for a lock - at all.

~snip

Wrong .

And bad advice .

Edited by Besh, 14 December 2023 - 10:32 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

For targeting, I think I remember hearing it was from your cockpit to the enemy mech's center mass. Obstructions, even small ones, can block this which is part of the reason why sensor decay was built into the game, but radar derp almost entirely negates it.

[LordNothing]

RockmachinE, on 14 December 2023 - 06:56 AM, said:

My first guess was an invisible walls, as there's tonns, but you said your PPC hit. You don't really need to worry about getting a lock at the end of the day. If youre using LRMs, ATMs, just dumbfire in a situation like this.

the line between a ppc and its hit point is not the same line. its possible that your ppc has a clear line of sight and your sensors do not, or vise versa.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 December 2023 - 02:33 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i can tell you exactly why you kept losing lock. as someone who has played LRMs for YEARS i know most all the ins and outs of the weapon system. the game uses center of mass as the lock point (hence why you have to keep you reticle in the exact center of the box ever since the 2018 LRM mega nerf). now the way it works is that if anything blocks that center point (even something as small as a twig) it registers it as not having line of sight for the purpose of sensor lock. your Target likely had full radar Dep Skill nodes. Taking full Target Decay Skills will help counter this a bit (its not a direct counter sadly but it helps a little)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 15 December 2023 - 06:16 AM.

[Horseman]

Besh, on 14 December 2023 - 10:30 AM, said:

Wrong .
And bad advice .

Except he's absolutely correct and you're the one in the wrong here.
You do not need the paperdoll or even a sensor ping for direct fire weapons - the good old eyeball mk 1 will do just fine.
Standing around waiting for a target lock and the paper doll just means you're exposing yourself to direct fire from enemies who do not hamstring themselves with that kind of hesitation and indecisiveness.

Edited by Horseman, 16 December 2023 - 02:31 AM.

[Besh]

Horseman, on 16 December 2023 - 02:30 AM, said:

Except he's absolutely correct and you're the one in the wrong here.
You do not need the paperdoll or even a sensor ping for direct fire weapons - the good old eyeball mk 1 will do just fine.
Standing around waiting for a target lock and the paper doll just means you're exposing yourself to direct fire from enemies who do not hamstring themselves with that kind of hesitation and indecisiveness.

I am constantly amazed by the amount of baseless assumptions being used in these discussions as well as the goalpostmoving. Though it needs to be said that 2 things are being mixed up here when mentioning "target lock", which in itself is interesting since it borders on giving useless, wrong information .

Unless you are speaking lockon weapons, you get target lock hitting "R" . In the OP, lockon weapons were not mentioned .

From mechdb wiki:

Quote

If the player presses Target Lock ("R" by default)

https://mwo.nav-alph...rmation-warfare

Its by no means necessary to be standing around in the open exposing youself getting the paperdoll once you achieved Target Lock with "R". In fact, with the new IS Sensor Package and skills, quirks... , it is possible to get instant paperdoll when "R" . Theres even Information sharing between Players of same team .

Now looping this back to the specific part of the post I replied to

Quote

if you're shooting ppcs of any kind, what do you NEED the lock for anyway?

yes, it's nice to see the paperdoll, especially lategame, but "hitting stuff" is good enough, and there's no "need" for a lock - at all.

I'll say for PPFLD weapons, like PPCs, you absolutely want the paperdoll info, if possible before you shoot. Checking for weakness in armor and already open components to be hitting them ( which is heaps and bounds *better* than "just hitting stuff", esp. when it means disabling an opponent in 1shot, and if that means you survive the engagement, I'd argue you need the paperdoll...) , or checking where you hit, and effect of that hit.

Getting Target Lock with "R" also has the added benefit of that target showing up on Minimap for Teammates .

Strictly speaking, it is true, you dont need any of that when shooting PPCs . Always good to be able to hit a 'Mech under ECM with PPCs..to then be able to lock that Target . Which then enables target spotting via command wheel, again being beneficial to your Team just as to yourself .

All of the positives of getting Target Lock have been ignored, the post I replied to making it sound as if locking Target was useless for PPC shooting.

Which is wrong .
And bad advice .

Edited by Besh, 16 December 2023 - 05:13 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

yeah.. well.. not going into another, pointless, wall of text here.


to cut it short:
we have some people in here, this thread, this forum in general, who should rather
invest the time they spend here to get better in the game they write so vocal about.

which they don't, but instead spend that time to basically give an "against..! no matter what",
as well as some ill (probably not even meant, but given from a point where.. eh) advice.

@OP
you decide what you do with that. I'd suggest you "Jarl up" the wild claims in this thread and go from there.
or don't, it's your gaming experience after all.

@"those guys" - I've said my peace above and gave the OP as well as you some advice.
from here, there's 2 more names to "the list" and with that things I'll just don't have to read anymore.
good luck in your mwo-experience - looks like you're going to need it

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 16 December 2023 - 06:19 AM.

[Horseman]

Besh, on 16 December 2023 - 03:22 AM, said:

I am constantly amazed by the amount of baseless assumptions being used in these discussions as well as the goalpostmoving.

The one moving the goalposts is yourself.
When you argued Urbie is "wrong" that was an implicit assertion that target lock is required for direct-fire weapons.
If that was not what you meant, that's on you. Nobody else bears the responsibility for your poorly chosen phrasing.

Quote

Though it needs to be said that 2 things are being mixed up here when mentioning "target lock", which in itself is interesting since it borders on giving useless, wrong information .
Unless you are speaking lockon weapons, you get target lock hitting "R" . In the OP, lockon weapons were not mentioned

No, a target lock is not a missile lock. You are arguing against a strawman of your own making here.

Quote

Its by no means necessary to be standing around in the open exposing youself getting the paperdoll once you achieved Target Lock with "R". In fact, with the new IS Sensor Package and skills, quirks... , it is possible to get instant paperdoll when "R" . Theres even Information sharing between Players of same team .

There is no such thing as an instant paperdoll.
Getting the target lock and the paper doll information takes time during which you need to maintain visual contact unless someone else is holding locks for you (which in QP is a dubious proposition).
That time mean exposure to enemy return fire. It might be fractions of a second, but it still is time.
Further, reliably getting a target lock requires being closer to the enemy and consequently being exposed to more risk than you'd be at if you maintained range.
That you're unable to appreciate that that exposure is unnecessary and can mean the difference between retreating into cover and getting cored out is a you problem.

Quote

I'll say for PPFLD weapons, like PPCs, you absolutely want the paperdoll info, if possible before you shoot. Checking for weakness in armor and already open components to be hitting them ( which is heaps and bounds *better* than "just hitting stuff", esp. when it means disabling an opponent in 1shot, and if that means you survive the engagement, I'd argue you need the paperdoll...) , or checking where you hit, and effect of that hit.

I've been there, you know? And what I learned is that this approach just leads to analysis paralysis, holding your fire in attempt to get that perfect shot that never comes.

Quote

All of the positives of getting Target Lock have been ignored, the post I replied to making it sound as if locking Target was useless for PPC shooting.
Which is wrong .
And bad advice .

No, you're arguing against a strawman of your own making there. Urbie very clearly described the paperdoll data as a luxury.
With weapons that shoot beyond brawl range - PPCs among them - and the proliferation of ECM carriers, it's pretty much a given you will not have that luxury much, perhaps even most, of the time.

Refusing to fire in that situation is a noob mistake and only makes you easy prey for ECMed or stealthed opponents unless you're close enough to be within their jamming range - which for weapons with minimum range like IS PPCs and HPPCs is a terrible idea.

TL;DR: Paperdoll is a luxury. If you have it, great. If you don't, shoot center mass and that is good enough.

[Besh]

Horseman, on 16 December 2023 - 10:43 AM, said:

~ blahblah

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about . And you either don't understand, or intentionally misrepresent what I was writing .

It was you coming aorund assuming one would have to stand around in the open exposing oneself to get Target Lock ( its instant when R ), clearly indicating you assumed OP was talking about getting lock related to Lock on Weapons (even then you would be wrong...) . It was my post that cleared up that Target Lock is not Missile Lock, as well as making clear no, you dont need to be standing around in the open exposing yourself to achieve Target Lock with "R". Target Lock using "R" is instant. You claimed different in your post I replied to above .

You misrepresenting what I wrote does not change this .

If you think instant paperdoll after getting Target Lock with "R" is not possible, you need to brush up on your Gameknowledge .



from 3:16 on .

Edited by Besh, 16 December 2023 - 01:48 PM.

[Horseman]

Besh, on 16 December 2023 - 12:00 PM, said:

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about .

Son, in past seven years I've played over twice the amount of matches you did (besides participating in two Comp Series). If anything, you haven't played the game for two and a half years until you came back to it last month.

Quote

And you either don't understand, or intentionally misrepresent what I was writing .

I understood what you wrote. The responsibility to express yourself clearly is on you and if you wrote something different than what you meant to, too bad - for you.

Quote

It was you coming aorund assuming one would have to stand around in the open exposing oneself to get Target Lock ( its instant when R ), clearly indicating you assumed OP was talking about getting lock related to Lock on Weapons

Incorrect.

Quote

you dont need to be standing around in the open exposing yourself to achieve Target Lock with "R".

Unless someone on your team is holding locks for you, you need to see the enemy and maintain visual contact. If you can see them, so can they. If you advocate for repeatedly poking out of the same spot, that's just as bad.

Quote

Target Lock using "R" is instant.

Record a few matches where you follow your own advice against targets you locked yourself instead of relying on teammates, then a few where you take purely optical shots.
Then compare the timestamps of the frames between when you spotted the enemy in your field of view and when you fired.
There will be an appreciable difference.
Your idea of "instant" disregards the time it takes you to press the key, obtain target lock, obtain target data, process it visually and then make the decision based on it. All of which adds delays that add up together and slow you down.
When playing against opponents who aren't perpetual Tier 5 inmates, that hesitation will be a difference between your life and death.

As both myself and Urbie told you, there are times when the paperdoll can be useful - and more often, times when it's not. As a pilot you have to be able to tell the two apart.

Quote

First, increasing Targeting Data Speed by a percentage is not equivalent to reducing the time the paperdoll takes to display by that percentage. There are several spots in the video that make this apparent, including 19:51 (paperdoll at 19:53), 20:17 (paperdoll at 20:20), 20:36 (no paperdoll before enemy mech leaves LOS)
Speed is not travel time, it's like you'd argue that +100% velocity makes a projectile weapon hitscan. That the author of that video made that mistake it is on them, but failing to realize that error and trying to use it in your argument is still on you.

Also, that very video invalidates your very argument regarding waiting for the paperdoll - it's author fires a whole hell of a lot at mechs they don't have locked, or before they get targeting data. See 9:03, 9:26, 9:38, 9:54, 10:00, 10:07, 10:19, 10:33, 10:52, 11:01, 11:14, 11:21, 11:28, 12:00, 12:07, 12:14, 14:19, 15:04, 17:03, 17:15, 17:30, 18:16, 18:28, 18:42, 18:56, 19:21, 19:28, 19:34, 20:05, 20:17, 20:30, 20:36, 20:56, 21:18, 21:29, 21:54, 22:38

Edited by Horseman, 17 December 2023 - 06:47 AM.

[An6ryMan69]

I think we would be better off if the game had a manual "lock target under reticle" ability, like other similar games.