17 replies to this topic

[Vincefeld]

You know it doesn't have to be ungodly $hite like this. energy weapons are small and look at piranha! that thing got 15 of them plastered all over the mech.
Just remove that "extension" and put 1 mount on the nose part and 2 on shoulder.

Timberwolf already fell off the power scaling and doesn't deserve this gimping "feature" on top of that.

[Curccu]

LOL

[Luckless Horn]

I'm honestly not sure what is being referred to as bad here. Is it the shoulder pod weapon mounts that are the highest point of the mech that's the problem here?

Personally I like those, firing those weapons over teammates and over obstructions is very easy.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

The only thing I would want changed about the A's left torso is for it to scale in size to the number of weapons mounted in it. That's mostly because I hate that little block of empty space that exists with 2 LPL in it

Otherwise it's really nice

[TheCaptainJZ]

For the shoulder pods, they made 2 sizes, small and large plus no pods. Usually these are for missile launchers but the A energy pod is the same as you'd have with an LRM10. Compared to an LRM20, it's fine. I mean, the A pod used to have a negative quirk because of how good the Timby was upon release.

[foamyesque]

the check engine light, on 20 December 2023 - 05:22 AM, said:

The only thing I would want changed about the A's left torso is for it to scale in size to the number of weapons mounted in it. That's mostly because I hate that little block of empty space that exists with 2 LPL in it

Otherwise it's really nice

I put 2 LPLs and an ERPPC in it to avoid that issue.

[-K H A N]

Vincefeld, on 19 December 2023 - 11:57 PM, said:

You know it doesn't have to be ungodly $hite like this. energy weapons are small and look at piranha! that thing got 15 of them plastered all over the mech.
Just remove that "extension" and put 1 mount on the nose part and 2 on shoulder.

Timberwolf already fell off the power scaling and doesn't deserve this gimping "feature" on top of that.

i must behave, I must behave.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

foamyesque, on 21 December 2023 - 04:30 PM, said:

I put 2 LPLs and an ERPPC in it to avoid that issue.

I put 3 ERLL in it but it's a bit too spicy to do that and 6 ERML more than once. 3 ERLL in that pod is stupid good at poking.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I have to say I agree with the OP..

That triple laser left torso on the TimberWolf-A should be exactly the same dimensions as the STK-6/SRM-6 or LRM-5 pod.

Its not really an advantage considering how many mechs have high mounts, and the best Timby builds are still Stock Timberwolf-BH omnipods.

The A left torso being asymmetrical has bothered me since day 1.

Its meant to be a deception at first glance, when paired with SRM2/4/6 size pods for the RT.

Same thing goes for the LongBow-10k, and 13NAIS.
As if they were LRM variants, until the enemy closes distance and the pod doors open to reveal auto-cannons.

Edited by Cyborne Elemental, 21 December 2023 - 10:47 PM.

[MechB Kotare]

the check engine light, on 20 December 2023 - 05:22 AM, said:

The only thing I would want changed about the A's left torso is for it to scale in size to the number of weapons mounted in it. That's mostly because I hate that little block of empty space that exists with 2 LPL in it

Otherwise it's really nice

Actually this. It would be cool to at least adjust the Torso A's size and hitbox to how many weapons it has mounted. Its ridiculous, that we still have to suffer that gigantic hitbox (which increases side torso...) even when we dont use all 3 energy hardpoints...

Timby is already bad enough...

Edited by MechB Kotare, 23 December 2023 - 10:34 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

MechB Kotare, on 23 December 2023 - 10:33 AM, said:

Actually this. It would be cool to at least adjust the Torso A's size and hitbox to how many weapons it has mounted. Its ridiculous, that we still have to suffer that gigantic hitbox (which increases side torso...) even when we dont use all 3 energy hardpoints...

Timby is already bad enough...

sarcasm detected
the empty space being at the one end instead of like, centered bugs the **** out of ne and if I put an ERML up there one of the arms is lopsided (also BH's CT hardpoint is off center ffjsblyddhhf)

Edited by the check engine light, 23 December 2023 - 10:39 AM.

[MechB Kotare]

the check engine light, on 23 December 2023 - 10:37 AM, said:

sarcasm detected
the empty space being at the one end instead of like, centered bugs the **** out of ne and if I put an ERML up there one of the arms is lopsided (also BH's CT hardpoint is off center ffjsblyddhhf)

Sarcasm? Im not being sarcastic. I genuinely agree with you.

The empty space should not be there at all. Its not worth mounting only one or two lasers/ERPPCs, because you still get that empty space, and thus you still have to suffer that gigantic ear.

Im also very serious when saying, that Timber wolf is one of the worst clan heavies in the game. There is nothing it does, that other mechs dont do better.

Night gyr = smaller engine = more rooms for guns = more firepower + JJs. Also relatively high cockpit, even though its high shoulders make it vulnerable to hits. Still better than timbys ears. You get shots to them before you even peak far enough for you to see behind terrain.

Hellbringer = Same, high cockpit, much better torso hardpoints, ECM capable, same speed/engine

Mad dog = king of SRM boating, and LRMs, extremely high cockpit makes it much safer than Timby, they also share the same engine

Timber wolf is just very bad mech in MWO. It has got low mounted arms, its high mounts are above cockpit, while HBR's are almost perfectly right below its cockpit

TBR S torsos with JJs are either in exchange for torso A (which is necessity for laser vomit), or ECM, which is also huge advantage to have in MWO, or energy hardpoint in CT.

Its rear is so ''boxy'' that even a blind person would hit its side torso from the rear.

It doesnt have any more armor than any other clan heavies.

Sun Spider is also honorable mention, though i think HBR is still better thanks to its cockpit placement, making it much better for hill/corner poking.

I think im most bothered by the MWO paper doll limitations. Back in MW 4, you would have shoulder mounts (ears) on TBR separated from side torsos.

Like you can literally destroy a mech just by shooting its ear weapons, place where no part of engine should ever be.

[martian]

I like the Madcat, even with its LT A OmniPod.

[Captain Caveman DE]

you forget that the timberwolf is WAY more agile than the other clan-omnis.
you can move like crazy in it, shield easily and throw it around.
hellbringer moves like a truck in comparison, and the gyr is a freighttrain with a dead engine next to it.

it might be shoehorned into laserboat-builds and I'd honestly prefer other omnis for everything else,
but it's still very viable - including the LT-A.

I'm not saying it's the best there is - just that it's not as bad as you people describe it.
there's a ton of vids out there that showcase the mech, especially since it's "requirk"
some time ago.
especially the bountyII seems to do well.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 31 December 2023 - 07:03 AM.

[w0qj]

Clicky: GrimMechs S-Tier List (work-in-progress)
https://grimmechs.is...ts?list=general

There are nine (9) mech builds in this elite build, and 2 of these are Timber Wolf mechs!

a) TBR-S: mix-and-match OmniMech build for Laser Vomit + ECM
TBR-S: 2xLPL + 6xERML + TC1 + ECM + JJ
~JJ in CT (I personally prefer the TBR-Warrant or TBR-Prime for its CT heat dissipation, but who am I to comment?)
~ECM in RT
~TBR-A Left Torso with that mid-sized above-shoulder pod.

b ) TBR-BH: 4xLPL: mid/longer range laser vomit sniper, and no mid-sized above-shoulder pod.
~SO8 for its full set set bonuses
-5% Pulse Laser Heat
+100m Sensor Range
+30% Targeting Info Gathering

Does the GrimMechs folks consider that TBR-A LT mid-sized above-shoulder pod a liability?
Apparently not...

Edited by w0qj, 31 December 2023 - 12:51 PM.

[Void Angel]

I can't swallow the idea of the Timber Wolf being a very bad 'mech. Yeah, it doesn't poptart like the Night Gyr, and its architecture isn't the best - but it still runs at the speed of a Combat Medium and leverages those tiny Clan energy weapons for strong, repeatable alphas.

Certainly other Clan Heavies get used more these days; you can make a case for the Hellbringer being better for laser vomit trading, for example, and stuff like the Night Gyr do the long-range trading game very much better with Gaussvomit, ERPPCs, etc. But the Timber Wolf still has more armor and flexibility than the Hellbringer; it's got more speed than any Night Gyr build. It may not be optimally min-maxxed for the current metagame - but very bad? I can't see it.

Edited by Void Angel, 31 December 2023 - 10:12 AM.

[MechB Kotare]

w0qj, on 31 December 2023 - 09:40 AM, said:

Clicky: GrimMechs S-Tier List (work-in-progress)
https://grimmechs.is...ts?list=general

There are nine (9) mech builds in this elite build, and 2 of these are Timber Wolf mechs!

a) TBR-S: mix-and-match OmniMech build for Laser Vomit + ECM
TBR-S: 2xLPL + 6xERML + TC1 + ECM + JJ
~JJ in its CT (I personally prefer the TBR-Warrant or TBR-Prime for its heat dissipation, but who am I to comment?)
~ECM in its RT
~TBR-A Left Torso with that mid-sized above-shoulder pod.

b ) TBR-BH: 4xLPL: mid/longer range laser vomit sniper, and no mid-sized above-shoulder pod.
~SO8 for its full set set bonuses
-5% Pulse Laser Heat
+100m Sensor Range
+30% Targeting Info Gathering

Does the GrimMechs folks consider that TBR-A LT mid-sized above-shoulder pod a liability?
Apparently not...

Anyone who is at least decent shot, and knows basics of this game, will aim for that pod, which is an easy target.

1 of two builds you mentioned does not have pod A at all. It still got low mounted arm hardpoints though. Kinda offtopic imo.

The work of S tier list is still in progress btw. My real counter argument would be, that many top tier players can have different understanding and opinion about this. For example, Geeram did tier list for cs 23, where he puts spider into S tier of competitive play, while night gyr, which is S tier for me in qp, he puts in b tier. Does it mean, that spider is a S tier mech in general?

I'm judging by my own experience, coming from 10 years of playing this game. Despite of how much i love Timber wolf in general (one of best heavies in mw3, very good mech in mw4, s tier in mechcommander 1, solid in MWLL), i always found it much worse Laser vom, than hellbringer/sunspider, always worse smr/lrm boat than Maddog, always worse ERPPC jump sniper than summoner, always worse skirmisher than hellfire/Maddog/Linebacker and always worse ERLL boat sniper than Night gyr.

TIMBER WOLF TBR-C 1,110 733 367 2.00 1,654 532 3.11 628,257 1,585,967 4 days 22:25:23
TIMBER WOLF TBR-C(C) 214 140 74 1.89 263 116 2.27 123,802 438,011 1 day 00:49:37

(Mech') (Matches Played) (Wins) (Losses) (Ratio) (Kills) (Deaths) (Ratio) (Damage Done) (XP Earned) (Time Played)

^Glimpse of my stats. 95% is all from qp, ever since clan invasion. These make TBR (C) my most played mech in the game, right after Cataphract 3d pre clan invasion.

Void Angel, on 31 December 2023 - 10:11 AM, said:

I can't swallow the idea of the Timber Wolf being a very bad 'mech...

I meant ''a very bad mech'' and ''its one of the worst clan heavies in the game'' in context of comparing it to other clan heavy chassis (Night Gyr, Sun spider, Summoner, Hellbringer, Linebacker, Maddog, Hellfire), because they simply do specific build specializations much better. Sorry for not clarifying this more accurately

Void Angel, on 31 December 2023 - 10:11 AM, said:

But the Timber Wolf still has more armor and flexibility than the Hellbringer;

Any real significant difference in their armor values is tbr has 8 more points in its CT. Its still the same armor bracket. If you look at MechDB, you will realize, that their armor values are also very variant (omni pod) dependent.

For example. if you build classical laser vomit (2xHLL,6xERML) on HBR featuring HBR prime arms, you will get total possible max armor value of 452. If you make classical TBR laser vom, featuring LT TBR A omni pod, warran ECM RT, and PRIME arms, you get max value of 462. The difference is negligible, and totally worth the same speed, same maneuverability, better hardpoints, better hitboxes and higher alpha (edit: also 10t less for 4man group drop). TBR gets one extra heatsink

MechDB codes for HBR:
AV3M<:@1ph0EU7|PC|lB|l^|l^|l^qh0lH7|PC|lB|lB|l^|l^rP0kH7|lB|l^sX0oH7|lB|l^|l^tc00I7|l^uc01I7|l^vB02I7|lBw404040

MechDB codes for TBR:
Ae4D<:H1pl0]Y7|lB|m<2|l^|l^ql0jK7|0C|0C|lB|l^r`0aD7|lB|lB|l^|l^|l^s`0eD7|lB|lB|l^|l^|l^tf0nK7uf0oK7vA0hK7w404040

Void Angel, on 31 December 2023 - 10:11 AM, said:

it's got more speed than any Night Gyr build. It may not be optimally min-maxxed for the current metagame - but very bad? I can't see it.

Sure you can make it work, especially against worse players, who dont focus that giant ear, but just because you can do 1000+ damage in quick play game, doesnt mean that its top tier mech, best of the best and so on... Its totally one of the better mechs in the game overall, but one of the worst in its weight class within its tech.

As an example:
I've seen people do 1000+ in Assasin with ECM + 2xSnubs. Does it mean its a S tier mech? Phoenix hawk 7S with 2xSnubs + 5x small lasers, or Shadowhawk 2k with 2x HvyPPC, or shadowcat with 2x cERPPC, MASC (+ occasionally with ECM) are far superior mechs than assasin with snubs, thanks to their superior hardpoints, hitboxes, tonnage and armor values etc.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 31 December 2023 - 01:23 PM.

[Void Angel]

It's not off-topic when I'm responding to "The Timber Wolf is a very bad mech." You've got a point about armor, though you're including the quirked HBR arms in that total... why do the arms matter? Aren't good players who know how to aim always hitting the TBR's ears? Do they target the Hellbringer's arms instead? Why no ECM? In any case, the side torsos on the TBR have 4 armor more, a little under 6% difference, which is pretty small. Plus the flexibility option of jump jets (for the chassis) doesn't go away, though, and you've still got the trade-off between longer stare times and better damage on the HLLs with shorter burn duration and more range on the LPLs. The Timber Wolf is going to fire faster as well, yielding a 17% higher sustained DPS. If you find a similar loadout on MechDB for the HBR, you get This, which goes the other direction: less alpha for significantly more sustainability - and still slightly less sustainable dps^*

Now, maybe that's not valuable in comp, which is the only place to go, really, if you discount quickplay; I'll take your word for it. But the game lives in quickplay. Comp results aren't fungible, not only because of pilot demographics, but because the game format isn't the same. Do top comp builds translate into top quickplay builds? Almost universally. But just because something isn't viable when every factor needs to be min-maxxed to win - that doesn't mean it's "very bad."
I'm not claiming the Timber Wolf is the "best of the best," but "very bad" is still a tough sell. You can't reasonably divide everything into "min-maxxed for organized comp play" or else "very bad 'mechs." There is room between those extremes for something to be good, but still not be viable in comp, or even top-tier any more.

---

_*: this suggests the HLL build is the better comparison, but I compared similar optimized builds for completeness. You could stack the exact same guns on the HBR, but it just becomes a less-effective copy of the TBR.

Edited by Void Angel, 31 December 2023 - 02:21 PM.