111 replies to this topic

[Saved By The Bell]

How about change vote: select one map, you dont want to play.

May be smth new?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

the check engine light, on 21 December 2023 - 06:57 AM, said:

HPG appears conspicuously absent from that voting list unless I overlooked it.

It's the second highest voted medium map, behind Mining. Hellebore, Caustic, and Crimson pick up the rear on the medium maps which also makes sense, I don't remember if the vote was before or after they adjust Caustic but it was pretty awful before.

I would say now Caustic is better than what it was voted on in that poll.

KingCobra, on 21 December 2023 - 09:06 AM, said:

I think it's more about TTK Like I have said there is not a map in MWO that I hate and yes some have bugs some are tacitly more difficult but for most MWO players it's all about how fast and how many kills they can get so they pick the maps they have low TTK and fast kills.

Hellebore being awful has nothing to do with TTK, it has everything to do with it pretty much being two trains smashing together and no really good ways to rotate. Hellebore is somewhat like Forest in that 50% or more of the map goes unused, the difference between the two though is that the other parts of Hellebore are unused because they are no man's lands that offer no reason to venture into them. The canyon maze that is to the south for example is just absolutely pointless other than wasting people's time.

KingCobra, on 21 December 2023 - 09:06 AM, said:

But you're not the whole player base in MWO some players like a variety of game modes to keep the game interesting even with the 4 we have only 2 get picked a lot Domination and Skirmish I wait days sometimes to even play the other 2 game modes and in MW 4 they had actually 20 different game modes not variation.

Deathmatch vs Attrition was the main ones which were skirmish with different point schemes, which is what most of the game modes boiled down to. Not saying that CTF or the mission plays weren't picked, just saying 20 badly design modes does not make a good game just like we saw with Incursion or Escort. With no server browser you have to be careful about what game modes are allowed in each queue. Ideally you would want to group game modes for each queue based on the type of player that it attracts. So for people like me, conquest and domination are all I really need for a good no respawn game mode (skirmish is the worst and assault generally plays worse than the other two objective based NR modes).

Mission play, CTF, Siege, etc all fit the more casual style of play that I think people want so that being in a more casual queue would make sense. However this is the point I'm trying to make, what we are talking about is attracting players that want to play stompy robots differently from me, and appeasing them is fine but you have to be careful from trying to branch too far because different audiences have different desires and it can be hard to balance that (which is why you have to focus on your core audience).

The video game industry and the world have changed A LOT since the MW4 days, expecting people to be successful by going back to the old model I think is a fool's errand. That said, I think games like Counterstrike have found a balance for that by allowing both custom maps, server browsers, and matchmaking to co-exist and provide options. One can only hope that if MWO2 comes to fruition, that is the model. However I will say this, with matchmaking, map voting is the way to go.

Saved By The Bell, on 21 December 2023 - 09:20 AM, said:

How about change vote: select one map, you dont want to play.

May be smth new?

I mean what you are talking about is pretty much map vetoes which how typical games do map voting, it just takes longer.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 December 2023 - 09:39 AM.

[Grey Hook]

ScrapIron Prime, on 21 December 2023 - 08:34 AM, said:

This has been a long debate. Personally, I feel that selecting your mech to go along with the map would further reduce penalties for specialist mechs. On some maps your mech might reign supreme while on others it is handicapped. Eliminating random maps would completely kill off the idea of a mech that can do anything besides brawl or snipe.

I understand that creating a system that rewards specialized mechs might end up “punishing” generalist mechs, but isn’t that more realistic? (not that realism is the main concern in a fictional setting with walking tanks, etc). But it’s more intuitive to how humans think, regardless of setting.
When getting ready to leave the house, how do you decide what to wear and bring? A person doesn’t look at all their clothes and decide what to wear at random. They think: What am I doing today? Will I be inside or outside? Do I need to bring a lunch? What is the weather like? Am I going to work? Am I going to a wedding? How long will I be gone for? Do I need my laptop, or my work boots? etc, then they decide accordingly.
MWO’s current mech/map selection order is more like this: First, firmly decide what to wear. Once you’ve committed to going out, you are given a vote between 4 scenarios. “Ok, this time it’s… “Best Friend’s Wedding”, “Yardwork”, “Hit the Gym” or “Ice Fishing”. Hope you’re dressed appropriately!
It is awkward to arrive at a wedding in gym shorts (and small comfort to know they would have been equally useless for ice fishing). But it is very frustrating when one has invested in a perfectly good tuxedo, knowing that there were times they would need it, but it’s hanging in their closet.
This is the current situation in MWO. And while I often enjoy playing generalist, mid-range mechs, I don’t think “just bring generalist mechs” is the right answer. In a game that offers such a deep level of tuning and customization of equipment, having a mission/map/mech selection structure that punishes effective use of the customization features feels almost cruel.
My proposed solution is to simply change the order in which the players make decisions:
1) choose which weight class you will drop in, for matchmaking purposes.
2) vote for the map and game mode, like we do now.
3) once the map and mode are determined, choose which of your mechs (from your chosen weight class) you will deploy in.
Yes, everyone will still have maps they like and ones they don’t. (I personally dislike Solaris City, but others love it there). But they get a fair vote, and if their favorite didn’t get picked they can at least bring the right tool for the job.

Edited by Grey Hook, 21 December 2023 - 09:55 AM.

[Saved By The Bell]

Well, I am collecting votes, and vote against HPG all times. I am holding votes, if no HPG. So do the same and be saved from premade sniper defeat.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Grey Hook, on 21 December 2023 - 09:54 AM, said:

I understand that creating a system that rewards specialized mechs might end up “punishing” generalist mechs, but isn’t that more realistic? (not that realism is the main concern in a fictional setting with walking tanks, etc). But it’s more intuitive to how humans think, regardless of setting.
.
My proposed solution is to simply change the order in which the players make decisions:
1) choose which weight class you will drop in, for matchmaking purposes.
2) vote for the map and game mode, like we do now.
3) once the map and mode are determined, choose which of your mechs (from your chosen weight class) you will deploy in.
Yes, everyone will still have maps they like and ones they don’t. (I personally dislike Solaris City, but others love it there). But they get a fair vote, and if their favorite didn’t get picked they can at least bring the right tool for the job.

I hear you. But consider this... how much worse would HPG Manifold be if there were 8-10 snipers on each team instead of 2-3?

Perhaps a bit of a compromise? Make every player use their drop decks. Build it out with 250-260 tons for 4 mechs like you do in faction play. You pick one of your drop decks and try to find a game. Then when you see the map, you choose one of the four mechs from the drop deck you have selected for the game.

With that, you're still going to have decks comprised of "my sniper, my brawler, and the two mechs I never intend to select", but its better than just picking anything after you see the map.

And it would encourage players to buy drop decks again, since Faction Play is just a shambling corpse of what it used to be.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Map voting gives the player some measure of agency and players generally like having some sense of control, even if it's loose. The system we have is generally fine. If it's all RNG you better believe there'd be just as much complaining if not more.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 December 2023 - 09:39 AM, said:

It's the second highest voted medium map, behind Mining. Hellebore, Caustic, and Crimson pick up the rear on the medium maps which also makes sense, I don't remember if the vote was before or after they adjust Caustic but it was pretty awful before.

It's a medium map? Okay that's why. Seems large to me, hence me looking in that field.

[foamyesque]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 December 2023 - 09:39 AM, said:

Hellebore being awful has nothing to do with TTK, it has everything to do with it pretty much being two trains smashing together and no really good ways to rotate.

See, that's the good thing about Hellebore. Best new map they've made.


My general evaluation:

Solaris and River City are fine maps, if with too much ground clutter. Alpine Peaks is the absolutely standout trash map. New Highlands is okay but needs to be at least one grid square smaller in radii, Bearclaw has been interesting though prone to geometry issues, Viridian is good, Caustic suffers from being incredibly easy to see people on in thermal, classic Terra Therma is a good map that people hate on for superstitious reasons, new HPG is a bit of a sniper fishbowl but it's biggest issue is that it just get played way too much, Mining Collective is a standout except for the ability to hide up on the dark walls surrounding the installation, Coliseum needs to have the mushrooms removed completely, Crimson Strait is fine, Emerald Vale is prone to sniper disease and one side has much cleaner access to the ridges than the other, you can't see crap on Ceres but the map layout is fine. Forest Colony is a bit big but offers lots of interesting places to fight and the trees interfering with sightlanes and projectiles allow for interesting engagements to develop, Forest Colony Classic and Snow Classic are usually fun, generally high-intensity fights that develop quickly, Tourmaline needs a LOD or terrain geo pass *badly* and either smaller mountains or more cover across the middle, since it's a map you can literally shoot one spawn point from another spawn point, Frozen City Assault is a travesty because of the death valley and FC's Dom bowl is a deathtrap. Conquest and Skirmish are okay. Frozen City Classic is mostly good but needs a spawn pass to resolve asymmetry issues. Canyon Network is okay, but has some asymmetries that favour certain spawns and also the layout hugely encourages rotations. Hibernal's mostly the same but it's even worse because Hibernal has fewer / less obvious ways to move between the levels.

TTC gets played so little I still don't understand the map layout well enough to comment :v

Edited by foamyesque, 21 December 2023 - 05:47 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

foamyesque, on 21 December 2023 - 05:46 PM, said:

See, that's the good thing about Hellebore. Best new map they've made.

Yes.

It's also really pretty and very vertical.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 21 December 2023 - 05:46 PM, said:

See, that's the good thing about Hellebore. Best new map they've made.

It really isn't, not being able to rotate is more than just no nascar, it's also about just limited avenues of approach. If you want trains smashing into each other, honestly just put us on one of the solaris maps, that would still probably be better than the waste of space that is hellebore.

Hellebore is a lot like all the worst parts of Canyon, but dialed up several notches.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 December 2023 - 06:24 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 December 2023 - 06:22 PM, said:

It really isn't, not being able to rotate is more than just no nascar, it's also about just limited avenues of approach. If you want trains smashing into each other, honestly just put us on one of the solaris maps, that would still probably be better than the waste of space that is hellebore.

Hellebore is a lot like all the worst parts of Canyon, but dialed up several notches.

Disagree. Worst part of Canyon is "let's all rotate OOPS THEY ROTATED BETTER." That and "hey let's go stall out in D3 and get farmed."

Edited by the check engine light, 21 December 2023 - 06:48 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

the check engine light, on 21 December 2023 - 06:43 PM, said:

Disagree. Worst part of Canyon is "let's all rotate OOPS THEY ROTATED BETTER." That and "hey let's go stall out in D3 and get farmed."

I mean the whole stalling part is due to one of the issues with Canyon, specifically the C3/D3/C4 area being a bunch of no man's lands that are where rotations go to die either from rotating to an inferior position or to getting shot from D4 and/or C5 while you rotate. It's one of the problems I would've expected them to fix when they added more ramps. Nascar is just a by-product of PUGs being PUGs.

[ScrapIron Prime]

the check engine light, on 21 December 2023 - 06:43 PM, said:

Disagree. Worst part of Canyon is "let's all rotate OOPS THEY ROTATED BETTER." That and "hey let's go stall out in D3 and get farmed."

Had one of those earlier today. The team kept rotating until they’d lost all the slower mechs and then stalled and died. 12-1, because I killed one before I died in my big slower mech.

[W4R GOD]

Solaris sucks but if you get rid of it there is no map the tryhards with range cant own every drop.

[Ilostmycactus]

HPG is my favorite map ;_; maybe because of the moon sounds. I like that the center is accessible without nascaring, but you can get some cover too.

Solaris is my least favorite because it has the worst performance and how it punishes long range builds. I also don't think it really feels in scale like you're a massive mech stomping through a city.

[kalashnikity]

It might be cool to have a drop deck to choose from, maybe in ~10 seconds before drop loading screen, right after map selection but before you get to see your team -so people can't game it.

Be able to switch within a one weight class, or maybe +/- ~15 tons, something like that.

On the other hand, I do enjoy the challenge of dropping on Solaris in a LRM boat.

I did ~500dmg in a Mean Baby yesterday, LRM80 LPPC3, we won. I almost survived too, but died at the end.

[kalashnikity]

In a way it also adds realism, in a real fight you might not have a choice what you bring, "you fight with what you have", as it were.

Being able to switch between highly customized mechs isn't a luxury most mechwarriors would have "in real life".

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah i hate Solaris as well, it is my least favorite map of all of them.

honestly there are ways around the map generation without making it fully random. just have the game keep track of what maps are selected (something i am pretty sure it already does) then every hour or so remove the 2 most selected maps from the rotation for the next hour and then repeat.

[ScrapIron Prime]

kalashnikity, on 22 December 2023 - 11:25 PM, said:

In a way it also adds realism, in a real fight you might not have a choice what you bring, "you fight with what you have", as it were.

Being able to switch between highly customized mechs isn't a luxury most mechwarriors would have "in real life".

Very exactly true. But, as folks are fond of pointing out, that is Lore while this is a first person shooter. That's kind of reserved for campaign style play where you only have a limited number of mechs, like MW5 or Battletech (HBS).

[MechB Kotare]

I'd be ok, if they just redesigned Solaris to be more versatile. Its a bad and unbalanced map, full of useless objects to get stuck on. Too many skyscrappers in center arena, while outskirts have nice places where you can utilize JJs.

Those train/metro tracks look so clunky and unrealistic, some of the building passages are not adjusted accordingly for all mech classes. It is also a very badly optimised map, with huge frame drops (which .cfg file Geeram provided fixes thank Kerensky...). Objects clipping, buldings disappearing and reappearing... Very buggy map.

Im fine with vote and vote multiplier system thought. I remembers times before it, and the rng made the map selection more repetitive. Vote system was implemented, because people would often get dropped 3 times in a row on one map, without any way, to influence it, for different outcome. With the current amount of active players, history would just repeat itself.

Just redesign Solaris and Alpine, these maps make one style of play dominant over the others.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 23 December 2023 - 10:29 AM.