127 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

SolCrusher, on 26 January 2024 - 11:18 PM, said:

I feel like we're in peak MWO now. sure it's on it's way out to pasture but what 10 year old game isn't?

So us old timers remember when you had to use teamspeak to talk with your group. There was no in game comms. You had to type stuff out. Honestly from the wall of text you publish I think you're 10 years late to the game.
I'm trying to remember, but I honestly can't. I think solo queue had groups in it. 8v8 then moved up to 12v12. I think the groups were capped at 8, then shrank or got their own group queue.

Anyways, we use to sync drop on teamspeak to get around match maker, i'm sure you could do that today with Discord.

Then there was a time on the weekend when people would jump on a big teamspeak server with I don't know 20 lobbies or something so every 24 player game could jump into a room. You could actually insult the other team over the mic and everything. It was great. Sometimes on slower nights the reds and blues would get their own rooms so you could to tactics and stuff.

Then they finally added in game comms and that ended all the real fun. The game was stompy robots with stompy matches.

It's still that now.

So yeah drop with 4 friends tell the 5th to go get bent, or find another and drop in 4 and 2 groups and face off. Fire up discord and bust each others balls over it.

You could get a whole group of 20 friends bustin' their balls in discord all playing MWO all having a great time. Some drinking, some sitting around all sweaty palmed and try harding all night.

This game definitely doesn't need more than 4 in a group in the only queue that has players left. December I dropped in 382 games.

You my friend haven't dropped in a game since 2022, I think that pretty much makes your complaints null and void.

Nah he's right.

[Arnetheus]

1453 R, on 26 January 2024 - 03:53 PM, said:

Okay. Lemme TL;DR it for the Twitter generation that doesn't have the patience or capacity to participate in an adult conversation:

Sorry, but rolling into the thread with a verbal diarrhea, consisting of about a dozen strawmen made up in your head is hardly an "adult conversation".
Sometimes less is more, you know.

And the fact that you don't understand what basic lobby balancing is, well...
Yeah, humanity never had that implemented in any of the games ever, totally.

SolCrusher, on 26 January 2024 - 11:18 PM, said:

You my friend haven't dropped in a game since 2022, I think that pretty much makes your complaints null and void.

He's either one of the unfortunate forum warriors or just playing on a "new main" account.

[1453 R]

Meep Meep, on 26 January 2024 - 07:41 PM, said:

You are in tier 4 which is the sweet spot of the mm. Plenty of tier 3 and 5 to fill out matches for quick drops and plenty of mechdads and casuals to lolz around with and not worry about sweaty premades stinking up your matches. So why are you complaining about things that don't effect you?

One: I intensely dislike sKiLc0r3 jackwaffles constantly whining and kvetching and demanding that People With Friends all get bent and leave MWO forever. As I've said, I'm only here at all and playing matches again because a buddy of mine picked up the game and it was time for me to go to Mentor Mode and make sure he only broke his face against the learning cliff a little bit. If people like Engine Light got their way I wouldn't ever be allowed to do that, and Piranha has proven itself overly amenable to "Listening To The Community" to the detriment of game design in the past.

Two: I don't really care about premades, or blowouts. if I see a lance of like tags on the enemy team it doesn't send me into a frothing frenzy of inconsolable nerdrage and cause me to throw the match or just disconnect on the spot because "we already lost at the matchmaking screen", the way sKiLc0r3 folks do. And if I get blown out 12-2 or whatever? I admonish myself if I made a mistake and was part of the problem, I shrug and say "eh, that's just how the game be" if I did my reasonable best, and I move on.

What I don't do is log into the forums and stridently demand that Piranha butcher the matchmaker and also ban many of the game's most important people so that I can deflect my own suck and briefly feel better about losing a match at the cost of killing the game entirely. Like, ohh, say...'bout two thirds of the folks in this thread?

the check engine light, on 26 January 2024 - 11:18 PM, said:

You're not bully-whining anyone into allowing 12 mans into soup.

Go to faction play or private matches.

One: I don't recall saying I wanted to allow twelve-man drops in quickplay. In point of fact I believe I said that I wanted to give Solo Tryhard sKiLc0r3 jackwaffles more ability to avoid grouped players, not less. My proposal was to allow solos to opt out of playing against grouped players entirely, at the cost of halved match rewards and falling to the back of the line in matchmaking priority. You can get exactly what you profess to want and never see another group again, it will simply cost you because you'll be actively making the game worse for everyone else by doing so.

In the theoretical world where this was attempted, my plan was to implement this Solo Opt-Out feature without touching group size limits and see what it did to matchmaking and player numbers, see which percentage of selfish sKiLc0r3 jackwaffles opted to make the game worse for everyone else, and only when those numbers were available decide whether it was feasible to improve group limits in QP.

Two: Faction Play doesn't exist anymore. Private matches have never been a solution. This is another big reason I hate sKiLc0r3 people - they say "just play Faction Play!" and assume we're all too stupid to know what they actually mean. We all know what "go play Faction Play" actually means, CEL. it means "stop playing MWO and leave forever", because Faction Play isn't real anymore. If it ever truly was.

MWO has one queue, with the exception of whenever Event Queue is running. If you're not in QP, you're not playing MWO. A "queue" in which you can sit waiting for a match for an entire night and never actually get that one, single match is not a valid queue. So quit pretending it's anything but a place to banish people you've arbitrarily decided don't deserve to play the game anymore.

[torsie]

I think this problem is not exactly in teams but more in organized players.

I will sometimes see one person on our team, and I think they play alone sometimes, sometimes I will be in their squad so at least they are not team of 4 players.
And this person will immediately become commander and start placing markers on map and lead our whole team. Usually when this happens its such super win that even I survive until the end, very often it ends 12-0 in few moments.

Well and few matches later, I will see this person on other team and it become 0-12 very quick.

Playing as team and moving together and knowing what is going to happen is very strong in this game, that doesnt mean any random group of players is going to win every match, I was invited once to play with some people and while they were good I wasnt help much at all, but just by staying together because you joined match together will give you better chance at winning than 12 people all running alone in completely different directions.

So where is limit? 4 people playing together? Maybe 5? If you want to join with 8 people into game that has 12 people on team, you are definitely being organized and you will absolutely have advantage against your opponents.
If it is just 2 or 3 of you and you play well together, you will also have big advantage over other 20+- people who are complete strangers and just come in to watch big robots explode .

With this on mind, I think it is reasonable to ask "why dont you go play game that is made for groups of organized people" because only answer to this is "I like winning with no effort" and if you join that other game mode there are other organized people and you suddenly lose that advantage.

Well our only problem here is we have second answer to this and that is "we dont have enough people" from what I am reading this game seems to be relatively small and not enough people are trying to join as teams and just join for quick matches.

If there was option for quickplay to select if you want to play with teams or only with random people, I would probably select both, I am not good enough to blame my performance on other people and I wouldnt mind being that last person to join team of 11 people on one side.
But I cant see myself joining for faction play, it takes a lot of time to find match, but its mostly because that looks like nothing for bad people who cant communicate, so it will probably stay out of my reach probably forever. .

PS: I would add here personal experience. When I was playing some other games with friends, they are very good at playing games and even with me dragging them down they could easily bring any round completely around and win. I would see people being angry in chat all the time and telling us to go play some competitive mode, or being very rude . But we couldnt go anywhere, because torsie has trouble walking straight in any game and every time we tried something harder I would just sit dead most of the time watching my friends and doing nothing, so our only option was staying in normal games, but playing as "organized" team.

Edited by torsie, 27 January 2024 - 11:05 AM.

[pbiggz]

the check engine light, on 27 January 2024 - 06:25 PM, said:

Some groupers don't seem to recognize that solos were made to compromise, not groupers, and they should sit the **** down and shut the **** up about demanding MOAR. You got something, we lost something.

You do understand if they didnt make that change the servers would have gone down ages ago right?

Everyone compromised, because it was that or nothing.

[Meep Meep]

The short term solution would be to incentivize grouping. Grouping isn't really the core issue. It's that for the average casual player there isn't really any reason to group up be it time constraints or just not being very social so they tend to solo drop. But if there were rewards for grouping that would help bunches on fostering a more team oriented general playerbase instead of the random groups in a sea of solo droppers. Maybe have a few quick play events with lance oriented rewards if thats possible. Just some weekend stuff stuff to test the waters and get people slowly used to grouping instead of soloing it?

[pbiggz]

the check engine light, on 28 January 2024 - 06:58 PM, said:

12 mans is not a compromise that should ever happen and the audacity of conflating disapproval of that with wanting abolishment of groups begs for a karmic reward.

I dont want 12 mans.

[Meep Meep]

I think 12 mans ~should~ be allowed. But they would have to wait in queue until enough other premades made up the difference on the other team via 4 mans or another 12 man. Bring back 8 man with the same caveat. That way you can't complain about long waits because you chose to do it. Then 3 and 2 man groups would get full mm treatment not restricted to dropping with other groups so casuals wouldn't be punished.

[KingCobra]

pbiggz, on 28 January 2024 - 07:01 PM, said:

I dont want 12 mans.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally do not want groups in solo quick play even 4 mans they need to go back and play in faction or a 8v8 teams only environment where they belong many have given great suggestions to fix faction play or make a 8v8 drop system work almost as fast as solo quick play.

There is becoming to many 4man groups plus sync dropping in groups farming everyone in games and that is because of coordinated groups exploiting the game mechanics. Their behavior is nothing but destructive and not constructive to MWO's survival as a viable game for all to play.

And don't get me wrong I'm into team coordinated gameplay as in faction play ECT but I'm not into seal clubbing solo/casual/new players that just further destroy this game.

[pbiggz]

KingCobra, on 29 January 2024 - 08:01 AM, said:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally do not want groups in solo quick play even 4 mans they need to go back and play in faction or a 8v8 teams only environment where they belong many have given great suggestions to fix faction play or make a 8v8 drop system work almost as fast as solo quick play.

There is becoming to many 4man groups plus sync dropping in groups farming everyone in games and that is because of coordinated groups exploiting the game mechanics. Their behavior is nothing but destructive and not constructive to MWO's survival as a viable game for all to play.

And don't get me wrong I'm into team coordinated gameplay as in faction play ECT but I'm not into seal clubbing solo/casual/new players that just further destroy this game.

This is far from the first time I have told you that's literally impossible now. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. Its a compromise you have to make, or you can find another game to play.

[Besh]

pbiggz, on 29 January 2024 - 08:30 AM, said:

This is far from the first time I have told you that's literally impossible now. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. Its a compromise you have to make, or you can find another game to play.

Its not impossible to syncdrop 4man and a group of solos, which I think what was meant by KingCobra .

In fact, I experienced syncdropping 3man, 2 man and solos, all in same discord . Max I experienced personally was 6 ppl in the same discord ending up at same side in one match . This only happened once with me involved, 'cos since then, I make it a point to NOT be part of that again .

In addition, I don't rly think "Play something else" is something to repeatedly tell people who are actually playing MW:O, esp. not by an account that is retired by now .

^^

Edited by Besh, 29 January 2024 - 10:52 AM.

[pbiggz]

Queue can't handle any more subdivisions, and when I say "play something else" I mean the measures in place to make sure the queue works right now are the bare minumum needed to make sure the game even functions. Had those changes not been made the servers would have gone down ages ago. That's what usually happens to dead freemium games from the early twenty teens.

[Besh]

pbiggz, on 29 January 2024 - 11:06 AM, said:

Queue can't handle any more subdivisions, and when I say "play something else" I mean the measures in place to make sure the queue works right now are the bare minumum needed to make sure the game even functions. Had those changes not been made the servers would have gone down ages ago. That's what usually happens to dead freemium games from the early twenty teens.

That may be so, but does not mean syncdropping would be impossible, also does not mean syncdropping in groups of 4 with Solos, 2s, 3s with solos would be impossible .

[Ignatius Audene]

He never said so. He said it's impossible to take groups out of qp, otherwise server power down asap.

FP is a totally different thing and only active during a few selective hours per day. No one jump in empty que first.

Removing groups from an multi player game would kill a big portion of the population. I only come back every now and then for FP, and some drop with my friends. And still around 50% of my drops are solo. Not being able to play with my friends =instant uninstall.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 29 January 2024 - 12:08 PM.

[Besh]

Ignatius Audene, on 29 January 2024 - 12:02 PM, said:

He never said so. He said it's impossible to take groups out of qp, otherwise server power down asap.

FP is a totally different thing and only active during a few selective hours per day. No one jump in empty que first.

Removing groups from an multi player game would kill a big portion of the population. I only come back every now and then for FP, and some drop with my friends. And still around 50% of my drops are solo. Not being able to play with my friends =instant uninstall.

Its called a slippery slope...

In addition, maybe read up a bit .

Your point of it being impossible to take groups out of QP is attacking a strawman. Thats not what has been mentioned by King Cobra in the post that was replied to .

KingCobra explicitly wrote

KingCobra, on 29 January 2024 - 08:01 AM, said:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally do not want groups in solo quick play
*snip

I just find the whole Idea of "not allowing Groups to farm solos will kill the Game" somewhat telling. Ofc. that is not what is openly stated . What is said are things like

• we dont have the population;
  
• its impossible ;
  
• etc .

No matter how often the mantras are repeated does not change the experience and perception of a not small portion of people actively participating on the Forums . Which is groups are farming Solos a lot, and that does not help new players/player retention . There is also very little evidence for the ritual assertions being made, they are just being stated as if they were true .

At least one proposal has been made in the past that would be very well workable, which comes down to not split buckets . Its far from impossible to go ahead and think up solutions for the problem of Groups farming Solos .

[pbiggz]

Besh, on 29 January 2024 - 12:43 PM, said:

Its called a slippery slope...

The slippery slope is a fallacy. It asks the question "where do we stop?" The answer is "wherever we want".

Besh, on 29 January 2024 - 12:43 PM, said:

Groups farming Solos .

There it is again, the eternal, impossible to prove or disprove assertion. The boogeyman.

[Besh]

pbiggz, on 29 January 2024 - 01:07 PM, said:

The slippery slope is a fallacy. It asks the question "where do we stop?" The answer is "wherever we want".

The fallacy lies in asserting "not mixing groups with solos will kill the Game" .

pbiggz, on 29 January 2024 - 01:07 PM, said:

There it is again, the eternal, impossible to prove or disprove assertion. The boogeyman.

Just as can be stated "Its impossible to not let Groups into SoloQP" without any evidence, it can be stated "Groups farming Solos, a lot" without evidence . Its one thing to make this an Issue of logic...its an entirely different game when you simply go on denying the experience and perception of people, as well as ignoring and denying people straight up telling you what they have experienced by being part of . That in essence comes down to gaslighting .

Most importantly to me though is how you keep on making comments and strong statements about things happening in a Game you don't even play, according to Jarl's list .

*shrug*

Edited by Besh, 29 January 2024 - 01:45 PM.

[pbiggz]

Besh, on 29 January 2024 - 01:40 PM, said:

The fallacy lies in asserting "not mixing groups with solos will kill the Game" .

This game already experienced essentially a complete collapse once. Im not forecasting the future im recounting the past.

Besh, on 29 January 2024 - 01:40 PM, said:

Just as can be stated "Its impossible to not let Groups into SoloQP" without any evidence, it can be stated "Groups farming Solos, a lot" without evidence . Its one thing to make this an Issue of logic...its an entirely different game when you simply go on denying the experience and perception of people, as well as ignoring and denying people straight up telling you what they have experienced by being part of . That in essence comes down to gaslighting .


*shrug*

Experience and perception are important but they aren't the only part of the story. There's another thread going on right as we speak wherein the OP is convinced a number of perfectly functional mechs are absolute dogwater because, as it turns out, he's bad at using them and doesn't feel ok with admitting that. Is his experience valuable data?

None of us have visibility into the matchmaker. None of us have full data. We only have steam charts and Jarls list, and steam charts suggest the game's population is stable, and Jarls list suggests average KD ratios didnt meaningfully change before and after the queues were joined. That's all we can go on.

If you and a few other guys are here insisting you're getting farmed, basically that's the definition of anecdotal evidence. Im not saying its not important, but anecdotes can't be confused for hard data, and if you're annoyed by that standard of proof, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Besh]

pbiggz, on 29 January 2024 - 01:47 PM, said:

This game already experienced essentially a complete collapse once. Im not forecasting the future im recounting the past.



Experience and perception are important but they aren't the only part of the story. There's another thread going on right as we speak wherein the OP is convinced a number of perfectly functional mechs are absolute dogwater because, as it turns out, he's bad at using them and doesn't feel ok with admitting that. Is his experience valuable data?

None of us have visibility into the matchmaker. None of us have full data. We only have steam charts and Jarls list, and steam charts suggest the game's population is stable, and Jarls list suggests average KD ratios didnt meaningfully change before and after the queues were joined. That's all we can go on.

If you and a few other guys are here insisting you're getting farmed, basically that's the definition of anecdotal evidence. Im not saying its not important, but anecdotes can't be confused for hard data, and if you're annoyed by that standard of proof, then I don't know what to tell you.

I am not insisting I am getting farmed . I am telling you its happpening . Theres a difference .

As for the standard of proof : time will tell how you handle being held to the same standards you are holding others to . For starters, I am actually quite curious how you can simultaneously admit not having insight into hard Data AND assert it being impossible to not allow groups into SoloQ .

^^

Edited by Besh, 29 January 2024 - 02:03 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Back in the day we could group up to 12, but each additional person reduced the max weight for the team.
That I was fun, and I do miss that.