356 replies to this topic

[crazytimes]

Tarteso, on 07 January 2024 - 11:39 AM, said:

This is double funny: you are showing one, among several reasons, of why groups in QP are a bad idea; as well as saying that coordinated tactics (involving LRMs) in a team-based mode (FP) are a bad thing.
Anyway, why exactly is, let's say, a 4 man group running 3 x LRM90 boats + a NARC light waaaay worse than 4 man wolfpack hunting (or snipping, or doing anything else) in QP?

I was talking about the influence on data.

This comes as a surprise to most forum warriors- but there is actual performance data that gets posted either here or through some of the various official socials. Sometimes it's broken down by tier even... and this is just the publically released data. The people making the final call for balancing decisions will have access to even more complete and granular data.

Just because some potato "feels" a certain way about weapon performance in no way changes the population wide data of how it is actually performing. What I- very clearly I felt- stated was that for any given potato playing potato builds in a potato way, there are people at the other end of the spectrum utilising the weapon effectively already. A buff to make the potato feel better may mean that the people already using effectively will now use it exclusively.

For example snubpocalypse.

[Dogmeat1]

kalashnikity, on 08 January 2024 - 06:35 PM, said:

He openly said they don't want LRMS used in their snootly little "top tier" matches, so they will ruin it for the majority of players (Tiers 5 thru 2!) by making sure LRMS are so nerfed that if you get a 1000 dmg in a match it wil be a miracle.

You are making a strawman argument and Frostbyte said nothing of the sort. His exact statement was;

Quote

One final note though. While we do want to fix up LRMs, I don't think they should ever be top tier weapons. Same goes for streak SRMs. Any weapon that aims for you should inherently be weaker, as the game should reward you for the amount of effort and skill a weapon takes. Higher skill, higher reward.

By top tier he is not referring to PSR tiers. He means that due to the low skill ceiling associated with lockon weapons, they should never give the greatest rewards so as to not invalidate weapons that require more skill and time investment to use. In the past lockons have been over-buffed (the lurmpocalypses) and the response from the overall playerbases was so negative that the game suffered among the biggest loss of players, month-to-month, in the entire history of the game. Higher skill players compensated by either running lockons themselves or just simply sticking to range poke builds, while it was the lower skilled population who were getting driven away due to how badly they were being farmed every game.

All weapon systems should have a purpose and no one system should dominate the game, however, lockons are an inherintly bad design choice for a PvP game hence why good games generally avoid or only use them in a very limited fashion. Recoding the weapons to be wire-guided by the player would add a proper skill element to them but this is just not feasible due to the lack of available cryengine engineers and issues with MWO's netcode. Therefore, the best that can be done is to continue carefully adjust LRM, ATM and streak stats so they have a niche but do not overpower weapons that actually require skill.

[Tarl Cabot]

Curccu, on 08 January 2024 - 12:41 AM, said:

How about removing missile warning? (Probably needs engineering that we don't have .)

Meet you half way.. incoming Missile warning only for indirect fire but no warnings with direct fire.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 January 2024 - 08:19 PM.

[Shineplasma]

Moadebe, on 08 January 2024 - 11:11 AM, said:

These patch posts always feel a little ...

Well, its often the same uninformed people saying the same things, so that makes sense.

Also, your statement about LRMs and co requiring more facetime to use than direct fire weapons is outright false. Direct fire weapons require facetime on 100% of their shots. LRMs do not, even when solo queuing, but especially when utilized properly in a coordinated group or even just a 2-man. In fact, LRMs can potentially be utilized with 0% facetime if you're doing it right.

I have yet to hear a rational argument for why indirect fire support weapon systems should be just as effective when solo-queueing as weapons which actually require you to aim and face the enemy. They get to bypass 2 of the most fundamental realities of the FPS genre. Why should they also get to deal equivalent effective damage vs direct fire systems? Is having a coordination requirement in exchange for bypassing those fundamental mechanics such a bad thing?

As for other comments in this thread regarding LRMs and other lock ons: You can "feel" like it takes more skill to hold a lock on a light than it takes to shoot them, but your "feelings" are not quantifiable or actionable data. Tracking the outline of an entire mech/lock box is much easier than hitting a specific component with a projectile or holding a burn on said component on a moving target. No other weapon system can close the skill gap between a top-tier light pilot and a T5 better than LRMs or Streaks. Simply put, you're being ridiculous.

Lock on weapons are inherently lower-skill and that is reflected in every serious pvp game. Lock on, indirect-fire capable weapon systems can not and should not ever be as, or more powerful than a weapon which requires aim and exposure to enemy fire.

Edited by Shineplasma, 08 January 2024 - 08:59 PM.

[Shineplasma]

kalashnikity, on 08 January 2024 - 06:35 PM, said:

He openly said they don't want LRMS used in their snootly little "top tier" matches

We took lrms in comp last season during ToS in the top division and slapped people with them. They're already in our "snooty little top tier matches".

Edited by Shineplasma, 08 January 2024 - 09:09 PM.

[Abisha]

meanwhile nobody talks about airstrike how accurate that is it cant be countered by AMS, it don't have problems with ECM
etc

yea keep complaining about LRM when your mech getting damaged for like 25% by a red flag total fine.

how it should work,

the player who called in the airstrike should hold a tag on the mech as long as possible for the guided missiles
losing tag the missiles no longer are guided and just random drop

Tag for artillery strike consider the range artillery's strikes not accurate and drop somewhere around 10 to 50 meter area.

o wait that makes actual sense no way it ever be ingame

Edited by Abisha, 08 January 2024 - 09:30 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Not much point in continuing this thread.

PGI Employee:
(With major influence on weapon balance)

Frost_Byte, on 07 January 2024 - 09:12 PM, said:

While we do want to fix up LRMs, I don't think they should ever be top tier weapons. Same goes for streak SRMs.

CS 2022 Gold Champ:
(Possibly lead Cauldron balancer)

Navid A1, on 08 January 2024 - 02:11 AM, said:

I play MWO and I find hovering the mouse over a gigantic square from the safety of being across the map behind cover the easiest thing in video game history.

CS 2019 Gold Champ:

Vxheous, on 08 January 2024 - 04:32 AM, said:

I remember Writhen streamed using his forehead to hit his keyboard to launch lrms a few times back when lrms were even more garbage than now (2018) just to show how absurdly easy it was to do non focused damage with them.

CS 2020 Gold Champ:

Dogmeat1, on 08 January 2024 - 08:07 PM, said:

Therefore, the best that can be done is to continue carefully adjust LRM, ATM and streak stats so they have a niche but do not overpower weapons that actually require skill.

I had suspected there was 1 key player in the Cauldron that was possibly being influenced by D A T A who was responsible for these LRM nerfs. I was wrong. It's all of them.

This is uncharted territory for me. I've never seen such broad-based disdain for an aspect of a game by those responsible for maintaining that game. It's all starting to make sense now why STREAKs suck so badly. These guys aren't within a hundred miles of being able to properly balance lock-on weapons.

- Not one mention of the fact that LRMs/ATMs are the only weapons in the game that can have their damage output completely negated by a defensive system. (AMS)
- No understanding of the fact that getting and maintaining a lock at close/intermediate range against a small and fast target is VERY difficult.
- Not appreciating how frustrating it is to fire LRMs indirectly over terrain they should be able to clear only to see them stupidly slam into that terrain.
- Glossing over the amount of positioning involved in being a good LRMer.

It's over. Do what you guys will in the next patch.

[Abisha]

MechMaster059, on 08 January 2024 - 09:28 PM, said:

Not much point in continuing this thread.

PGI Employee:
(With major influence on weapon balance)


CS 2022 Gold Champ:
(Possibly lead Cauldron balancer)


CS 2019 Gold Champ:


CS 2020 Gold Champ:


I had suspected there was 1 key player in the Cauldron that was possibly being influenced by D A T A who was responsible for these LRM nerfs. I was wrong. It's all of them.

This is uncharted territory for me. I've never seen such broad-based disdain for an aspect of a game by those responsible for maintaining that game. It's all starting to make sense now why STREAKs suck so badly. These guys aren't within a hundred miles of being able to properly balance lock-on weapons.

- Not one mention of the fact that LRMs/ATMs are the only weapons in the game that can have their damage output completely negated by a defensive system. (AMS)
- No understanding of the fact that getting and maintaining a lock at close/intermediate range against a small and fast target is VERY difficult.
- Not appreciating how frustrating it is to fire LRMs indirectly over terrain they should be able to clear only to see them stupidly slam into that terrain.
- Glossing over the amount of positioning involved in being a good LRMer.

It's over. Do what you guys will in the next patch.

I think a team that's based on balance should not be "emotional involved" they look they have a strong opinion on the matter
explains why MWO is in a state of decay

[MechMaster059]

Shineplasma, on 08 January 2024 - 08:55 PM, said:

Tracking the outline of an entire mech/lock box is much easier than hitting a specific component with a projectile or holding a burn on said component on a moving target.

This CS 2023 Gold Champ doesn't understand that it's impossible for lock-on weapons to even target specific components which is the price they pay for being able to seek targets.

This is THE biggest disadvantage of lock-on weapons and is a HUGE negative for them..

I've seen Mad Dog STREAK boats fire salvo after salvo trying to take down a cored Atlas and they can't do it because their STREAKs keep flying all over the place and hitting armored components.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 08 January 2024 - 09:40 PM, said:

This CS 2023 Gold Champ doesn't understand that it's impossible for lock-on weapons to even target specific components which is the price they pay for being able to seek targets.

Its the price they pay for bad lock-on mechanics, its got nothing to do with homing. Again, there was a certain mech game that had homing weapons that targeted specific sections over 20 years ago. And that fact can't be changed because there is no engineering support for this game. So here we are.

Edit:
My favorite is that in all the quotes of the gold champs. They conveniently left out the best one:

Shineplasma, on 08 January 2024 - 09:08 PM, said:

We took lrms in comp last season during ToS in the top division and slapped people with them. They're already in our "snooty little top tier matches".

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 08 January 2024 - 10:06 PM.

[Ilostmycactus]

If indirect lockons are bad then I'd like for direct fire lrms to be more useful, "skilled" as it were. The velocity, arc, and spread makes dumb firing not really worth it even if I were to direct fight. Locking on in facetime is just going to get your components cored while you wait to reacquire locks every time you twist.

Losing locks when twisting in itself doesn't make sense to me, as that seems like behavior that would be limited to a laser designated missile (tag) and not a radar guided one (what I'm assuming lrms are) (though I admit I don't know much about radar).

As I've mentioned before lrms should have had been like tow missiles in direct fire, but that's not going to happen. Srms give you punch, mrms give you speed, and lrms would give you flexibility.

It would be nice if lrms didn't munch legs so much.

What about bringing the variant ammo types out? Infernos etc.




One thing I do find strange is that there's no effort to patch flamers into something usable and balanced. I almost never see them brought out and even then it's only a problem if you have the misfortune to be a heat heavy build. If anything needs normalized it's them. Turn them into an energy machinegun or give them damage over time or something if the heat mechanic is too oppressive.

[Dogmeat1]

MechMaster059, on 08 January 2024 - 09:28 PM, said:

I had suspected there was 1 key player in the Cauldron that was possibly being influenced by D A T A who was responsible for these LRM nerfs. I was wrong. It's all of them.

This is uncharted territory for me. I've never seen such broad-based disdain for an aspect of a game by those responsible for maintaining that game. It's all starting to make sense now why STREAKs suck so badly. These guys aren't within a hundred miles of being able to properly balance lock-on weapons.

Players who show competence in a given game are generally going to have a far better understanding of its mechanics than those who are not. Who is better qualified to give advice on how to drive a car; someone who can drive or someone who cannot? The Cauldron is represented by a range of casual and competitive players of very differing skill levels and only two of the people you mentioned are in the Cauldron (I am not). Data’s opinions were a minority and did not reflect the views of the majority of Cauldron members on a range of topics. Comp should never be the primary focus on game balance, however, one common theme all cauldron members must have is a basic understanding and competence in the game because if someone lacks the ability to drive a car competently then they shouldn't be telling others how to drive.

Quote

- Not one mention of the fact that LRMs/ATMs are the only weapons in the game that can have their damage output completely negated by a defensive system. (AMS)

AMS works against all missile types, lockon or direct fire, and will only stop a small percentage of missiles unless AMS is stacked in high volume against relatively lower volume missile fire. Direct fire has a far bigger counter in that you must expose in order to shoot and by the simple fact that you need to actually aim to do damage.

Quote

- No understanding of the fact that getting and maintaining a lock at close/intermediate range against a small and fast target is VERY difficult.

Aiming at a small fast-moving target at short range is magnitudes more difficult than simply tracking a lockon with the target reticule. Everyone on the cauldron has a lot of experience using lockons and has used them against better quality light players than you will find in tier 3.

Quote

- Not appreciating how frustrating it is to fire LRMs indirectly over terrain they should be able to clear only to see them stupidly slam into that terrain.

Human aimed weapons have no ability to be fired indirectly over terrain at all and suffer far more issues from clipping terrain than LRMs or ATMs do.

Quote

- Glossing over the amount of positioning involved in being a good LRMer.

The amount of positioning knowledge required to be effective with LRMs is minimal relative to the experience needed to be effective with any short range or direct fire weapon.

The reality is that if lrms were buffed to an extent that lower tier players are calling for, then those same lower tier players would get farmed out of the game by players who have the ability to exploit lockons. This is speaking from experience of playing through both lurmpocalypses and seeing the data on how many players quit after that. You would get farmed and you would not have a good time.

[Shineplasma]

MechMaster059, on 08 January 2024 - 09:40 PM, said:

This CS 2023 Gold Champ doesn't understand that it's impossible for lock-on weapons to even target specific components which is the price they pay for being able to seek targets.

This is THE biggest disadvantage of lock-on weapons and is a HUGE negative for them..

I've seen Mad Dog STREAK boats fire salvo after salvo trying to take down a cored Atlas and they can't do it because their STREAKs keep flying all over the place and hitting armored components.

These concepts are well understood by skilled players. The only ignorance revealed by your words is your own.

Said Mad Dog in your example also gains the ability to one-shot light mechs without aiming. Unfortunately, there is no changing the binary nature of these lock-on mechanics, due to factors mentioned above concerning mwo, cryengine and lack of developers available to re-build lockons from the ground up.

Edited by Shineplasma, 08 January 2024 - 11:21 PM.

[Shineplasma]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 08 January 2024 - 09:58 PM, said:

Its the price they pay for bad lock-on mechanics, its got nothing to do with homing. Again, there was a certain mech game that had homing weapons that targeted specific sections over 20 years ago. And that fact can't be changed because there is no engineering support for this game. So here we are.

Edit:
My favorite is that in all the quotes of the gold champs. They conveniently left out the best one:

Of course they left that one out. It doesn't fit the victim or conspiracy narratives that are so common on these forum "discussion" threads.

People don't want to understand the game. They just want to complain. Its why direct community engagement by game devs is so rare.

Edited by Shineplasma, 08 January 2024 - 10:39 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Shineplasma, on 08 January 2024 - 10:31 PM, said:

These concepts are well understood by skilled players. The only ignorance revealed by your words is your own.

Said Mad Dog in your example also gains the ability to one-shot light mechs without aiming. There is no changing the binary nature of these lock-on mechanics, due to factors mentioned above concerning mwo, cryengine and lack of developers available to re-build lockons from the ground up.

If a light mech get's one-shot by a Mad Dog, then it's the light mechs fault.
The light has complete zone control over a Mad Dog.

[Shineplasma]

feeWAIVER, on 08 January 2024 - 10:36 PM, said:

If a light mech get's one-shot by a Mad Dog, then it's the light mechs fault.
The light has complete zone control over a Mad Dog.

Yes, if a light walks into a streak boat and dies, it is their fault.

Is it good game design or an interesting interaction? That's another story.

As for a light mech having "zone control" over a mad dog. Well, that's a blanket statement which lacks nuance.

Can a HLL Incubus have "zone control" over a streak mad dog in a QP match? Sure.

Does a SPL Firestarter have "zone control" over a streak mad dog?

Hell no haha.

[feeWAIVER]

Shineplasma, on 08 January 2024 - 10:44 PM, said:

Yes, if a light walks into a streak boat and dies, it is their fault.

Is it good game design or an interesting interaction? That's another story.

As for a light mech having "zone control" over a mad dog. Well, that's a blanket statement which lacks nuance.

Can a HLL Incubus have "zone control" over a streak mad dog in a QP match? Sure.

Does a SPL Firestarter have "zone control" over a streak mad dog?

Hell no haha.

When's the last time you saw an SPL Firestarter in an actual match?
And yes, can still identify the threat and act according.


Here's the thing..
The game has been sucking lately. Like the past few months.
The new weapons + a billion new Assault mechs means half the team is Assaults boating vom and ballistics.
I think we need to buff lurms to counter the stationary Assault meta.

I'm seeing too many assaults sitting in the back with 95% health at the end of the game. These kids are playing with zero pressure, while the lights and mediums take all the pressure, and carry the actual game.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 08 January 2024 - 11:14 PM.

[Shineplasma]

feeWAIVER, on 08 January 2024 - 11:11 PM, said:

When's the last time you saw an SPL Firestarter in an actual match?
And yes, can still identify the threat and act according.

Not sure, but it was probably more recent than the last time I saw a streak mad dog in QP. I've at least seen an spl firestarter or 2 in comp matches.

This response is an example of "missing the forest for the trees"

The specific mechs are less important than the underlying concept.

Edited by Shineplasma, 08 January 2024 - 11:43 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Shineplasma, on 08 January 2024 - 11:40 PM, said:

Not sure, but it was probably more recent than the last time I saw a streak mad dog in QP. I've at least seen an spl firestarter or 2 in comp matches.

yeah, lock on weapons are the worst weapons in the game.

Streaks had a purpose when Faction Play was a thing, because you would bring your mad dog for final wave defense against a light rush.

But FP is dead, and so are streaks.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 08 January 2024 - 11:45 PM.

[The Brewer]

Serious question - has anyone present arguing with the top comp players in here ever watched a competitive match or asked any questions in good faith?

From what I have been reading, it doesn't seem that way. LRMs have been used, at this level of adjustment, at the highest level, in some strats to drive wins. Why is no one asking how to make them work as they are, or looking into it?

ECM has even recently been adjusted to help with lock and target acquisition, with further adjustments being considered. Can't see how anyone figures the 'stationary assault meta' isn't being addressed. Add in the adjustments to Clan heat dissipation and the continual tweaking of HAGs to turn down alpha inflation... among other things.

Get your fingers on the pulse a little.