241 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 10:20 AM, said:

Honestly, your comments just remind me of this video, tbh this video is apt for this conversation as a whole:
https://youtu.be/Eit...re=shared&t=184

I know you probably won't watch it but definitely educational.

"Easy game = boring game" - is common misconception, many game developers have. As result - they try to force players into harder content. And cause them to quit instead. Because what players actually need - to play on their desired difficulty. They want to play, what they like. As simple, as that. What if I like my playstyle? What if I've come to it after trying many others? Yeah. I haven't counted, but, I guess, it's 6th iteration. May be 7th. And it's time to stop it. I don't want to be forced to use Gauss builds only, because devs think, that Gauss should be Meta and that we should play Counter Strike instead of MWO. They're wrong. And I don't want to play this game, till they won't admit it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 26 January 2024 - 12:09 PM, said:

"Easy game = boring game" - is common misconception, many game developers have. As result - they try to force players into harder content. And cause them to quit instead. Because what players actually need - to play on their desired difficulty. They want to play, what they like. As simple, as that. What if I like my playstyle? What if I've come to it after trying many others? Yeah. I haven't counted, but, I guess, it's 6th iteration. May be 7th. And it's time to stop it. I don't want to be forced to use Gauss builds only, because devs think, that Gauss should be Meta and that we should play Counter Strike instead of MWO. They're wrong. And I don't want to play this game, till they won't admit it.

:wat:

Who said you had to be forced to use Gauss builds.....? At this point I think you are just being intentionally ignorant of what is actually in the "meta". Not to mention, if you wanted an "easy" game, why are you playing a PvP only game, if you want that power fantasy, MW5 is available.

[feeWAIVER]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 12:14 PM, said:

:wat:

Who said you had to be forced to use Gauss builds.....? At this point I think you are just being intentionally ignorant of what is actually in the "meta". Not to mention, if you wanted an "easy" game, why are you playing a PvP only game, if you want that power fantasy, MW5 is available.

This entire thread is intentionally ignorant, from both sides.

[MrMadguy]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 12:14 PM, said:

:wat:

Who said you had to be forced to use Gauss builds.....? At this point I think you are just being intentionally ignorant of what is actually in the "meta". Not to mention, if you wanted an "easy" game, why are you playing a PvP only game, if you want that power fantasy, MW5 is available.

Well, zero heat, long range, high volley speed, pinpoint damage. What else weapon should I need? ER-PPC is hot. Lasers are prone to spreading. Do you understand, that Meta shifts towards longer ranges? Many weapons are just useless. For now build is just useless, if it doesn't have ER-PPC and/or Gauss. It's better to have both. If we wouldn't have Lights, we would be able to simply remove everything else from game. And game would simply be turned into Counter Strike with it's non-counterable headshots oneshots, i.e. into "Who have better reaction" game.

Instead of nerfing LRMs, I would rather buff some useless weapons, like LBX. Add Lights knockdown at short range, so there would be at least some counter against their "leg hugging" tactic.

Edited by MrMadguy, 26 January 2024 - 01:16 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 26 January 2024 - 01:09 PM, said:

Many weapons are just useless.

Lolno, all I have to say is if you have trouble with other weapons, maybe you just don't have the skill to use them. I mean Gauss is solid and has been in some part of the meta pretty much since closed beta. However, the days where Gauss was just good by itself are pretty far behind us. There are plenty of weapons that are meta outside of Gauss, in fact as I mentioned, Gauss isn't even that amazing by itself currently as there is just too much fast to chew through in this game without supplemental weapons. Even then plenty of builds exist without Gauss being even used.

[MrMadguy]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 01:15 PM, said:

Lolno, all I have to say is if you have trouble with other weapons, maybe you just don't have the skill to use them. I mean Gauss is solid and has been in some part of the meta pretty much since closed beta. However, the days where Gauss was just good by itself are pretty far behind us. There are plenty of weapons that are meta outside of Gauss, in fact as I mentioned, Gauss isn't even that amazing by itself currently as there is just too much fast to chew through in this game without supplemental weapons. Even then plenty of builds exist without Gauss being even used.

Other weapons are too niche. AC/20 for example. It order to use it I would need to deliberately seek for close combat. And it's very risky tactic. It's all or nothing. It's relying on map too much. Because we have maps like Frozen City, that are designed for snipe duels. Such build would be completely useless on this map. Same for many other weapons, like SRMs. And equipping huge weapon, that would may be do just one shot within whole match - is just pointless waste of tonnage and slots.

Some weapons are "just for fun" ones. MRMs for example. Boating them means dealing lots of damage from mid range. But their spread is insane. So, they're purely about farming dmg. They're more like LRMs, but worse.

P.S. About video. It's about misconception, that FOOS should be removed as soon as possible, i.e. players should be forced into harder content as soon as possible. Problem is - there aren't just A and B. There are much more options. C - to pick next available FOOS. D - player has certain playstyle, so nerfing this playstyle and forcing other one on player would make him quit anyway. E - player has certain skill cap, so trying to push player higher than his skill cap would make him quit anyway. Overall it's always good to allow player to choose his way by himself. Player should make next step only when he is ready to make it. Now when devs decide to push him.

Edited by MrMadguy, 26 January 2024 - 01:46 PM.

[JediPanther]

Arnetheus, on 26 January 2024 - 02:22 AM, said:

So, basically any T1 player who plays anything they want and stays in T1 anyway?
What kind of a foolish request is that?


Weak attempt at a troll post?
You seem to have zero understanding of the skill floor and skill ceiling concepts, something so simple.
Why does this magical "point and click" direct fire never seems to work, when i see 4 pugs struggle to kill a single light?

Lack of aim pure and simple. I've spectated plenty of mechs that simply can not aim at fast moving close up targets. Many of which don't even bother to press "r" or try breaking the legs of a light. The best way to kill a light or any other fast mover is to just break its leg to take away its speed advantage.

Perhaps you and the other pilots here need light mech killing training. I'll gladly be your teacher if we can drop together in the future. I have a lot of lights but it sounds like the usual stealth fle,lct no aim problem when they use the er sml/spl mg combo.

[Bassault]

JediPanther, on 26 January 2024 - 02:01 PM, said:

Lack of aim pure and simple. I've spectated plenty of mechs that simply can not aim at fast moving close up targets. Many of which don't even bother to press "r" or try breaking the legs of a light. The best way to kill a light or any other fast mover is to just break its leg to take away its speed advantage.

Perhaps you and the other pilots here need light mech killing training. I'll gladly be your teacher if we can drop together in the future. I have a lot of lights but it sounds like the usual stealth fle,lct no aim problem when they use the er sml/spl mg combo.

Lets drop together in the future, add me ingame

[kalashnikity]

feeWAIVER, on 26 January 2024 - 12:18 PM, said:

This entire thread is intentionally ignorant, from both sides.

"Intentionally Ignorant"

I got a 3 day time out when I said "gaslighting".

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Gaslighting

All the herp derp about no skill, I can only imagine how much dmg I could have done with blue beamz in the time it took me to get a lock.

[kalashnikity]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 01:15 PM, said:

maybe you just don't have the skill to use them

abusive language

[Heavy Money]

90% of discourse on this forum is simply:

"This thing feels really unbalanced and unfair, what is going on?"
"It isn't, don't worry. You just aren't very good. If you do xyz and improve, you'll not have a problem with that thing anymore."
"OMG HOW COULD YOU INSULT ME LIKE THIS!"

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 26 January 2024 - 01:21 PM, said:

Other weapons are too niche. AC/20 for example. It order to use it I would need to deliberately seek for close combat. And it's very risky tactic. It's all or nothing. It's relying on map too much. Because we have maps like Frozen City, that are designed for snipe duels. Such build would be completely useless on this map. Same for many other weapons, like SRMs. And equipping huge weapon, that would may be do just one shot within whole match - is just pointless waste of tonnage and slots.

I never said there aren't niche weapons or that balance is perfect, but you thinking Gauss is the best weapon just tells me you don't understand what is even meta.

MrMadguy, on 26 January 2024 - 01:21 PM, said:

P.S. About video. It's about misconception, that FOOS should be removed as soon as possible, i.e. players should be forced into harder content as soon as possible. Problem is - there aren't just A and B. There are much more options. C - to pick next available FOOS. D - player has certain playstyle, so nerfing this playstyle and forcing other one on player would make him quit anyway. E - player has certain skill cap, so trying to push player higher than his skill cap would make him quit anyway. Overall it's always good to allow player to choose his way by himself. Player should make next step only when he is ready to make it. Now when devs decide to push him.

"playstyles" still can fall under the FOOS category, if a playstyle has a low skill floor and its power level is too high, this results in players leveraging it as a crutch rather than learning how the game is played. If your playstyle has a low skill ceiling, you shouldn't expect it to be as powerful as something that has a higher ceiling, full stop. That said, the amount of power you gain from using the playstyle/weapon/equipment/etc with the higher ceiling as mentioned in that video should not be linear, ie diminishing returns on the skill-to-power equation if you will.

This is also why lock-ons will be top of the meta, because if that happens it well, results in a game that caters to lower skill floor, low skill ceiling weapons.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 26 January 2024 - 06:25 PM.

[pattonesque]

Heavy Money, on 26 January 2024 - 05:33 PM, said:

90% of discourse on this forum is simply:

"This thing feels really unbalanced and unfair, what is going on?"
"It isn't, don't worry. You just aren't very good. If you do xyz and improve, you'll not have a problem with that thing anymore."
"OMG HOW COULD YOU INSULT ME LIKE THIS!"

"i absolutely will not do anything to improve and you're a monster for suggesting it's even possible"

[SolCrusher]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 06:20 PM, said:

I never said there aren't niche weapons or that balance is perfect, but you thinking Gauss is the best weapon just tells me you don't understand what is even meta.


"playstyles" still can fall under the FOOS category, if a playstyle has a low skill floor and its power level is too high, this results in players leveraging it as a crutch rather than learning how the game is played. If your playstyle has a low skill ceiling, you shouldn't expect it to be as powerful as something that has a higher ceiling, full stop. That said, the amount of power you gain from using the playstyle/weapon/equipment/etc with the higher ceiling as mentioned in that video should not be linear, ie diminishing returns on the skill-to-power equation if you will.

This is also why lock-ons will be top of the meta, because if that happens it well, results in a game that caters to lower skill floor, low skill ceiling weapons.

Okay, I'm not an engineer or anyting.....

But um. Lock on weapons are not FOOS by any means. There's tons of skill in getting them to work otherwise we'd see LRMS and Streaks everywhere.

So really just your blue lasers and gauss / hags are really FOOS.

They are simple to use, simple to hit with, and simple to climb up Tiers with.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SolCrusher, on 26 January 2024 - 08:41 PM, said:

Okay, I'm not an engineer or anyting.....

But um. Lock on weapons are not FOOS by any means. There's tons of skill in getting them to work otherwise we'd see LRMS and Streaks everywhere.

So two things:
What work?
They might not be now because of several changes, but in the lower tiers they definitely used too be.

Let's use a different example since people love Gauss rifles in this thread for some reason. The charge time does not really impact the skill necessary to use them, just changes the situations you can use them effectively. Now Gauss is not a direct comparison given the mechanics aren't quite 1:1 but the point is the same. That time to deliver damage does not magically increase the skill to use a weapon.

[Besh]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 09:21 PM, said:

So two things:
What work?
They might not be now because of several changes, but in the lower tiers they definitely used too be.

Let's use a different example since people love Gauss rifles in this thread for some reason. The charge time does not really impact the skill necessary to use them, just changes the situations you can use them effectively. Now Gauss is not a direct comparison given the mechanics aren't quite 1:1 but the point is the same. That time to deliver damage does not magically increase the skill to use a weapon.

Your definition of skill is pretty narrow if you think "charge time does not impact the skill necessary" . Ofc it does . Unless your Target is static, you need to get the timing down to hit it . Being able to do that - get the timing down - is a skill in itself . Oh, wait, that also applies if shooting at a stationary Target in case you are moving out of cover to shoot . Getting the timing down just perfect means minimal exposure for you .

Lets try something .ELI5 what you regard as "skill" in the context of MW:O. Please .

Edited by Besh, 27 January 2024 - 12:47 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 26 January 2024 - 06:20 PM, said:

"playstyles" still can fall under the FOOS category, if a playstyle has a low skill floor and its power level is too high, this results in players leveraging it as a crutch rather than learning how the game is played. If your playstyle has a low skill ceiling, you shouldn't expect it to be as powerful as something that has a higher ceiling, full stop. That said, the amount of power you gain from using the playstyle/weapon/equipment/etc with the higher ceiling as mentioned in that video should not be linear, ie diminishing returns on the skill-to-power equation if you will.

This is also why lock-ons will be top of the meta, because if that happens it well, results in a game that caters to lower skill floor, low skill ceiling weapons.

It's big mistake, when devs assume it. Because there are much more reasons beyond power and skill. For example I don't play Mediums and Lights, because I don't like how they look. It's my personal reason and it can't be changed. In order to change it, I would need to overcome myself. Of course devs may say, that I don't play their game properly, that I refuse to learn all it's aspects, that I don't truly experience it, blah blah blah. But if devs would say something like "Lights should be more powerful, because they require higher skill" - I'd quit. I have some adaptation threshold. I liked AC/2 and LLs in the past, now I like Gauss and ER-PPC. But that's it. Nothing would make me love SRMs.

Not all players are competitive. Not all players ready to adapt to any Meta, devs would force on them. Sometimes players play games just because they like it. And they hate, when they're forced to play differently, just because devs assume, that it's better for game. Like in that video, when author suggested to make gameplay mode diverse. And then devs start to add stupid puzzles to their games, while players want to just play game itself.

Edited by MrMadguy, 27 January 2024 - 12:14 AM.

[Besh]

kalashnikity, on 26 January 2024 - 04:55 PM, said:

"Intentionally Ignorant"

I got a 3 day time out when I said "gaslighting".

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Gaslighting

All the herp derp about no skill, I can only imagine how much dmg I could have done with blue beamz in the time it took me to get a lock.

Accurate...

Quote

• one partner is consistently listening and considering the other partner's perspective;
  
• one partner is consistently negating the other's perception, insisting that they are wrong, or telling them that their emotional reaction is irrational or dysfunctional.

[Arnetheus]

MrMadguy, on 26 January 2024 - 12:09 PM, said:

Well, zero heat, long range, high volley speed, pinpoint damage. What else weapon should I need?

Any weapon you want/prefer, considering we're in a much better spot today compared to maintenance meta. Something people pretend to forget.

Quote

Lasers are prone to spreading.

I'm sorry, what?
Spread is something weapon does by itself, like LBX. Lasers are pinpoint. Any "spread" happens either because of your opponent twisting or your aim being wonky.
That's why high alpha lasvom is so good vs people with lower awareness of what's going on around them. They just take it to the face before reacting.

Quote

Do you understand, that Meta shifts towards longer ranges? Many weapons are just useless. For now build is just useless, if it doesn't have ER-PPC and/or Gauss. It's better to have both.
If we wouldn't have Lights, we would be able to simply remove everything else from game.

Again with the myth of long-range meta in QP, while mid-range is the universal king.

Quote

Other weapons are too niche. AC/20 for example. It order to use it I would need to deliberately seek for close combat. And it's very risky tactic. It's all or nothing. It's relying on map too much.

Brawling and knife-fighting always was risky, yes. With the payoff being an instant win vs basically anything else, once you get to them.
Aren't snipers also "relying on map too much" by that logic though? You get nascared on, you die. Match in Solaris? Tough luck, now go shoot reds 300m in front of your face. A not so bad PPC poptarter behind that ridge 500m away from you, on your flank? Have fun while your armor goes down shot by shot.
"Map" argument applies to literally any build ever. MWO is a game about specialised builds, not lore kitchen sinks (provided you want to play an actual PvP game). You have to know where to go and what to do on any map, according to your current build

As for 20s, played a bunch of different Hunchies recently, fun mechs. Would not call them easy to use though.

Quote

Because we have maps like Frozen City, that are designed for snipe duels. Such build would be completely useless on this map.

Frozen is a big map with lots of space for manoeuvre. Depending on the game mode chosen, you should know where to go and what to do.
People cry all the time about Frozen Assault sniping fiesta, yet all it takes is to cross the valley in 1 of the 2 spots and get into mid/close range.

Quote

Same for many other weapons, like SRMs. And equipping huge weapon, that would may be do just one shot within whole match - is just pointless waste of tonnage and slots.

SRM bombers are one of the best backstabbers/flankers in the game. No idea what are you on about.
Plenty of brawlers use SRMs for frontlining.

Quote

Some weapons are "just for fun" ones. MRMs for example. Boating them means dealing lots of damage from mid range. But their spread is insane. So, they're purely about farming dmg.

They are also comparatively easy to hit with, which is a benefit to someone with not-so-good aim.
It's the same comparison of AC vs LBX. I'd rather have someone hit at least some of the pellets on their target, rather than keep missing single AC shots over and over.
Different weapons for different people.

JediPanther, on 26 January 2024 - 02:01 PM, said:

Lack of aim pure and simple.

Wait, hold on.
You just said "nothing easier than point and click, just shoot and do 100% of damage", now you're saying "lack of aim" is a factor?
In a conversation of lock-ons vs direct fire?
Irony overload.

Quote

I have a lot of lights but it sounds like the usual stealth fle,lct no aim problem when they use the er sml/spl mg combo.

No, i was referring to the general issue of people not being able to hit things moving faster than 100 kph, irrelevant of the size.

Quote

Perhaps you and the other pilots here need light mech killing training. I'll gladly be your teacher if we can drop together in the future.

Oooooh, how generous of you!
But sorry, i will have to decline. I prefer not to drop with people into lower tiers, if i can avoid it.

[MrMadguy]

Arnetheus, on 27 January 2024 - 12:50 AM, said:

Brawling and knife-fighting always was risky, yes. With the payoff being an instant win vs basically anything else, once you get to them.
Aren't snipers also "relying on map too much" by that logic though? You get nascared on, you die. Match in Solaris? Tough luck, now go shoot reds 300m in front of your face. A not so bad PPC poptarter behind that ridge 500m away from you, on your flank? Have fun while your armor goes down shot by shot.
"Map" argument applies to literally any build ever. MWO is a game about specialised builds, not lore kitchen sinks (provided you want to play an actual PvP game). You have to know where to go and what to do on any map, according to your current build

Close distance doesn't make long range weapons bad. That's why they're universal, so they're always useful and never waste of tonnage and slots. For example Gauss having high volley speed - little to no leading in close combat. That's why it's one of the best anti-Light weapons.

Edited by MrMadguy, 27 January 2024 - 01:06 AM.