48 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

pattonesque, on 26 January 2024 - 12:05 PM, said:

wait did they release the Thunderbolt missile stats yet? what makes you say they're DOA? too few HP? low velo?

I'd guess that the train of thought goes along these lines: the lore version's nature of a one-shot weapon puts even the more varied 5/10/15/20 versions that have been announced for MW:O in the same territory as Rocket Launchers (despite inherent differences concerning spread vs. no spread and thus the damage to singular mech zones) and how much those see usage regardless of for now missing detailed stats like missile HP and velocity. ~shrug~

In cases of Event Queue with the "unlimied ammo" trait they might actually replace Rocket Launchers when it comes to "sh!ts and giggles"

[1453 R]

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 January 2024 - 12:21 PM, said:

I'd guess that the train of thought goes along these lines: the lore version's nature of a one-shot weapon puts even the more varied 5/10/15/20 versions that have been announced for MW:O in the same territory as Rocket Launchers (despite inherent differences concerning spread vs. no spread and thus the damage to singular mech zones) and how much those see usage regardless of for now missing detailed stats like missile HP and velocity. ~shrug~

In cases of Event Queue with the "unlimied ammo" trait they might actually replace Rocket Launchers when it comes to "sh!ts and giggles"

...Thunderbolt launchers have perfectly normal ammo/ton counts. They're 'one shot' in that they fire a single large missile per trigger pull, but they have no more or less damage/ton of ammo than LRMs.

[Der Geisterbaer]

~hmm~ I was mentally with just the original Thunderbolt missile (which is one-shot) but didn't think of the also existing Thunderbolt Launchers (haven't played that much with Tactical Operations)

[JediPanther]

pattonesque, on 25 January 2024 - 08:07 AM, said:

oh dang they've released the Thunderbolt's stats already? Do they need buffs?

Pretty sure they do already.Unless they move faster than 160m/s or 244m/s which every other ac and guass does.

[pattonesque]

JediPanther, on 26 January 2024 - 01:56 PM, said:

Pretty sure they do already.Unless they move faster than 160m/s or 244m/s which every other ac and guass does.

do they? I don't see any stats for them yet

[Meep Meep]

Eh I get the feeling the new weapons will be balanced outside of lore to fit in the reality of a real time shooter. Thats the direction cauldron has been taking the game so far. Weed out the unusable lore stats and insert stats that make sense in the context of this specific game.

[Novakaine]

Meep Meep, on 26 January 2024 - 03:43 PM, said:

Eh I get the feeling the new weapons will be balanced outside of lore to fit in the reality of a real time shooter. Thats the direction cauldron has been taking the game so far. Weed out the unusable lore stats and insert stats that make sense in the context of this specific game.

Like I said DOA.

[Rhaelcan]

Felbombling, on 25 January 2024 - 03:18 AM, said:

Looking forward to March, when the announced inclusion of Thunderbolt Missiles should arrive. I was quite excited to read this, as the only other time I can think of when Thunderbolt Missiles were part of a BattleTech game was waaaaaay back in perhaps the second MechWarrior title. I could be wrong. What I remember of them was two points. 1) They were hard to come by, it seemed. 2) They had black contrail smoke, which easily identified them on the battlefield.

I am throwing this post together in the wee hours of the morning for peace of mind. I wanted to get out there my gentle suggestions for the design team and the Cauldron folks as they plan for and implement my all-time favorite weapon system. This has been a long time coming, so please bear with me.

• Please go with realism when it comes to the weapon geometry that is summoned when a Thunderbolt Missile occupies a missile weapon port. If you're not going to model a new representation of the weapon on the various Mechs and hardpoints, at least summon the Narc missile geometry. I don't think anyone wants to see a Thunderbolt 20 represented by twenty missile tubes, etc.
  
• Please armor the missiles to ward off some value of AMS fire. I don't think players will be interested in mounting Thunderbolt 20s or 15s if they continuously get swatted down by AMS.
  
• A distinguishing exhaust flame and contrail would be nice, as they are a new weapon. Black smoke seems to fit the bill, as my memory serves of the first iteration back in the Microsoft days. Red or orange exhaust flames might be a nice addition.
  
• As far as sound goes, something to give the feel of a beefy, heavy missile would be nice. Fidelity is important in a game like MechWarrior: Online, as you already know.
  
• Lastly, it might be fun to have initial thrust animations for the missiles as they leave the launcher, then the actual flight animation. Just thinking about modern missile systems and how they often have a two-stage launch sequence, with the first stage being the ejection from the launcher. The second, actual flight system then kicks in mid-air, sending the missile to target. Plenty of examples of that on YouTube with regard to anti-tank missiles like the Javelin.

Alright, that's my two cents on the topic. I'd love to see other ideas or thoughts on the new system. Discuss!

Tbh, they already got plans on how to do it. We just need to wait.

1453 R, on 26 January 2024 - 10:06 AM, said:

It's off topic for this thread (y'know, like two thirds of the thread) but I'm also seriously keen to see how Magshots/AP Gauss are implemented. Depending on how they work, they could be a gigantic game changer for a huge number of 'Mechs. Even if the numbers aren't awesome, I can't imagine them being just new-sounds versions of machine guns, they have to be single-shot weapons you aim, fire, and then cycle like a more typical Gauss or autocannon. That's gonna open up entire new playstyles for fast skirmishers with massed ballistic hardpoints, and could allow 'Mechs with a smattering of ballistics but no real decent way to use them (TBR-Prime So8 immediately comes to mind for me) to add weapons that don't have great throughput but which better match their normal combat cadence.

They're going to have lower DPS than machine guns, and likely lower damage per ton of ammo, simply because machine guns are spread-y face-staring point-blanky weapons whose only advantage whatsoever comes from being heatless and having good DPS. Magshot and AP Gauss, if they're going to differentiate from machine guns, need to be fire-and-twist weapons that let light 'Mechs utilize more defensive maneuvering - or, as the update says, let heavier units have a better chance at poking and engaging light 'Mechs.

Gonna be incredible to finally have OPTIONS for ballistic weapons other than machine guns for light 'Mechs.

They are going to be short range ac2. It'll allow for machine gun boat mechs to actually do something new

[KingCobra]

Meep Meep, on 26 January 2024 - 03:43 PM, said:

Eh I get the feeling the new weapons will be balanced outside of lore to fit in the reality of a real time shooter. Thats the direction cauldron has been taking the game so far. Weed out the unusable lore stats and insert stats that make sense in the context of this specific game.

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And this comment is exactly why the Cauldron need to go they have basically neutered so many weapons in the game missiles are so bad now you're lucky to even hit targets with them there velocity is gone there firing arcs are gone their damage ratios are all destroyed from short range missiles to long-range missiles all in favored of sniping and new weapons that they prefer to use for themselves and their friends which are sniping weapons mostly for the Calderin and their buddies.

The Cauldron don't care about the game as much as what their friends and their groups friends want and that's why they need to disappear MWO does not need Whack a mole balance in MWO anymore. And don't expect thunderbolt missiles to be OP very long before they nerf them in favor of what their Pals want them to do.

[pbiggz]

You guys need to calm down. You're calling for the cauldrons heads because they hurt your feelings.

[Meep Meep]

pbiggz, on 28 January 2024 - 04:02 PM, said:

You guys need to calm down. You're calling for the cauldrons heads because they hurt your feelings.

It's the forums. It's what they do here.

[LordNothing]

not making any judgments until i see numbers or at least a video demo.

ams efficacy can be controlled by setting the missile hitpoints. set it up so a missile has a 25% chance of being destroyed by a single un-boosted ams, and know there are some mechs you simply cannot engage with the missile (kitfoxes, corsair 7a, etc, essential knowledge for lerm jockeys).

bone homing is fine if you give the weapon splash ala ppc, thus the damage diffuses out across your armor, though to a lesser degree than a lerm salvo. actually this works out no matter which homing method you employ. i kind of wish we had a tag chaser but as i understand that mechanic is not possible with how they got missiles set up and programming a new feature is out of the question.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 January 2024 - 08:33 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

pbiggz, on 28 January 2024 - 04:02 PM, said:

You guys need to calm down. You're calling for the cauldrons heads because they hurt your feelings.

It's just the usual "I don't know how to read patchnotes so I assume any changes to LRMs mean that I can no longer braindead click on hidden doritos to farm damage" crowd going for a slight change of pace.

[Novakaine]

They should be rebranded Thunder-snail LRM's.
There I said it.

[1453 R]

KingCobra, on 28 January 2024 - 10:53 AM, said:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And this comment is exactly why the Cauldron need to go they have basically neutered so many weapons in the game missiles are so bad now you're lucky to even hit targets with them there velocity is gone there firing arcs are gone their damage ratios are all destroyed from short range missiles to long-range missiles all in favored of sniping and new weapons that they prefer to use for themselves and their friends which are sniping weapons mostly for the Calderin and their buddies. The Cauldron don't care about the game as much as what their friends and their groups friends want and that's why they need to disappear MWO does not need Whack a mole balance in MWO anymore. And don't expect thunderbolt missiles to be OP very long before they nerf them in favor of what their Pals want them to do.

Have you tried playing a medium or mobile heavy 'Mech with a reasonable number of LRM tubes and firing from 400-600 meters into the fight, rather than playing a superbloated assault 'Mech with 120+ tubes that moves 30kph at best and never fires missiles at any distance less than 900 meters?

I've recently been playing with Howl (a TBR with MASC and jump jets with BattleMech construction rules and a SuperMegaUltraQuirk for one of my favorite weapon types? How could I resist?), and it's proven hellaciously fun. I'm rusty as **** after a year off so it doesn't always put up numbers, but playing it as an aggressive roving fire support platform angling for direct shots is more fun than it has any right to be, and way more effective than slinging ATMs at their maximum range even if that maximum range is utterly bugphonk ludicrous for Howl. Even before hiatus and Howl, my best LRM machines weren't assault 'Mechs with implausible numbers of tubes, they were Stormcrows that mated ~40-odd tubes with a big double battery of red lasers to defend myself with, finish wounded targets, and assist in Final Pushes.

The bloatboats do not work in Puglandia, KC. They only work in comp play, when they even work there, because compy players can actully coordinate well enough to ensure solid indirect locks. Puglandians don't have that luxury, they need to be able to see to their own locks and their own defense. If you're going to play a build that only functions while in the presence of a particular teammate and then play random QP matches where the odds of that teammate actually being on the team are well below fifty percent, you're honestly kinda inviting poor performance, ne?

[KingCobra]

1453 R, on 30 January 2024 - 05:41 AM, said:

Have you tried playing a medium or mobile heavy 'Mech with a reasonable number of LRM tubes and firing from 400-600 meters into the fight, rather than playing a superbloated assault 'Mech with 120+ tubes that moves 30kph at best and never fires missiles at any distance less than 900 meters?

I've recently been playing with Howl (a TBR with MASC and jump jets with BattleMech construction rules and a SuperMegaUltraQuirk for one of my favorite weapon types? How could I resist?), and it's proven hellaciously fun. I'm rusty as **** after a year off so it doesn't always put up numbers, but playing it as an aggressive roving fire support platform angling for direct shots is more fun than it has any right to be, and way more effective than slinging ATMs at their maximum range even if that maximum range is utterly bugphonk ludicrous for Howl. Even before hiatus and Howl, my best LRM machines weren't assault 'Mechs with implausible numbers of tubes, they were Stormcrows that mated ~40-odd tubes with a big double battery of red lasers to defend myself with, finish wounded targets, and assist in Final Pushes.

The bloatboats do not work in Puglandia, KC. They only work in comp play, when they even work there, because compy players can actully coordinate well enough to ensure solid indirect locks. Puglandians don't have that luxury, they need to be able to see to their own locks and their own defense. If you're going to play a build that only functions while in the presence of a particular teammate and then play random QP matches where the odds of that teammate actually being on the team are well below fifty percent, you're honestly kinda inviting poor performance, ne?

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First off friend I personally have played every combo of missile mechs since the early days of MWO almost day1 plus all the other combos of weapons I could in this game in solo/Faction/8v8/4v4 scouting and comp as my real self. But the real point of all this topic is how OP will this mech and weapons be upon release and for how long as you know the Cauldron love to nerf weapons of their choice not what's best for this game.

In fact yesterday I took out my 80 KPH madcat with 2 C atm and found out the Cauldron had nerfed them as well with no arc no velocity and no damage to targets when you fire them, they hit almost into the ground now that is why I call for them to be removed from anything to do with programming MWO and PGI do a stat rewind for all weapons and for gosh sakes if they want to play wack a mole with weapons balance find professionals to do the job.

So, let's see they have nerfed all misses in MWO now from short range to long range so there it is go try them all yourself there basically not viable to even take into combat against other far more powerful weapon systems now. Until they nerfed LRMs to death I could boat in QP and get over 800-1000 a game easy now you're lucky to do even half that damage.

Any new mech they introduce will be nerfed when sales drop and a new wonderful OP mech is introduced so players go WOW its so OP I can become a hero LOL . And please take your HOWL out now with the new nerfed missles and see how it does you have to stand completely in the open now as you cannot stand behind cover and fire them as they go directly into the side of even a small hill with no arc.

So, there it is the Cauldron just gave all their snipper buddies a new gift missile boats now have to be out in the open exposed to all that fire from enemy snippers and defective misses that can't repel them.

[1453 R]

...so the entirety of this complaint boils down to "I can't hide behind three hills nine hundred meters from the fight and fling lerms at random locks to farm entirely ineffectual damage and feel good about my Bigly Numbers while being a total detriment to my team as well as I used to and it's all the evil Cauldron's fault."

Right. Baseless and irrelevant opinion ignored. Moving on.

Anyone else notice that they specifically called out Thunderbolts as a "medium range" option? Definitely thinking these will be less "big LRMs" and more "big ATMs", with an emphasis on the 300-600m bracket. Don't think they'll bother with the range-specific damage thing from ATMs, but giving Thunderbolt launchers a flat trajectory and possibly higher cycle rates could position them as something of a sidegrade answer to ATM blasters on the Clan side, ne?

[Curccu]

KingCobra, on 30 January 2024 - 06:19 AM, said:

In fact yesterday I took out my 80 KPH madcat with 2 C atm and found out the Cauldron had nerfed them as well

You got link to patch notes that says that?

KingCobra, on 30 January 2024 - 06:19 AM, said:

So, let's see they have nerfed all misses in MWO now from short range to long range so there it is go try them all yourself there basically not viable to even take into combat against other far more powerful weapon systems now.

SRMs worked fine last time I played them in December at least, cannot recall any nerfs after that to them.

KingCobra, on 30 January 2024 - 06:19 AM, said:

Until they nerfed LRMs to death I could boat in QP and get over 800-1000 a game easy now you're lucky to do even half that damage.

If you can do every game always easy 800-1000 damage with LRMs maybe they deserved nerf? I'd estimate by your average match scores that you do not average 400-500 damage with other weapons?

KingCobra, on 30 January 2024 - 06:19 AM, said:

So, there it is the Cauldron just gave all their snipper buddies a new gift missile boats now have to be out in the open exposed to all that fire from enemy snippers and defective misses that can't repel them.

Buddy LRMs were never Sniper counter weapon and never will be.

[Felbombling]

Ok, so based on everything I've read in this thread, my hopes will float or sink on the Cauldron's love of Thunderbolt missiles. Got it.

[1453 R]

I mean, the basic idea is that the weapon system is entirely dependent on where its final balance numbers lie, yeah. Despite what Some People seem to think, the Cauldron has no interest or motivation to see any weapon system be rendered completely worthless, but by that same token every weapon has to have things it's good at and also things it's bad at. LRMs, for example, are very good at denying space by dealing heavy, difficult-to-avoid damage over a wide area, and they reward tight team play more than any other weapon system. That ability is so oppressive in top-tier gameplay that a single LRM machine paired with a single dedicated spotter/NARCbot can dictate the flow of an entire match. In exchange, LRMs are almost entirely unable to defend themselves against concentrated direct attack and perform very poorly in a direct one-on-one slugging match given their crippling minimum range and facetime requirements.

Thunderbolts won't be set up that way, because LRMs already occupy that niche and there's no sense repeating it. I still believe the smart play is positioning them as a rough analog to ATMs on the Sphere side. A very rough analog, mind, but yeah - flat or nearly-flat trajectory, higher velocity, but still lock-based and designed to work primarily in the 300-600 meter range bracket. I don't know if I'd bother with a minimum range on them given that Thunderbolt launchers are supposed to be bulkier and heavier than LRMs, but if the DPS numbers are good enough I imagine they might have to. Either way, the make-or-break will be how they interact with AMS. If you can shut the entire system out completely forever with one ton and two slots (AMS, half-ton of AMS ammo), then it almost doesn't matter how good Thunderbolts are - if they become THAT common people will just start mass equipping AMS and shut them out.

'Course, the real question is "will Spitfire be able to fire fourteen Thunderbolt-5s at once without Ghost Heat?" Hueh.