286 replies to this topic

[BLXKNTRR]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 March 2024 - 07:49 AM, said:

Got it. You love the Black Knight, its your favorite. But its not "out in the cold". The chassis got two quirk passes in the last year and they raised the height of the hardpoints in September and we just got a Legendary mech.

Its not as optimized as you want it, I get that.

So make a proposal, sell it to the Cauldron members. What needs done? And realize that they cannot change geometry (other than hardpoint locations), but they can change numbers. Acceleration, pitch and yaw, bonuses to armor and structure, etc. Make that pitch and make it attractive to them and... maybe?

Just compare the black knight to any orion chassis. Look at the armor difference alone. YES the black knight NEEDS a buff. It is obviously true. Idk how you could possibly be blind to that, but it amazes me the sheep mentality where one mech is fine, totally fine, but for the black knight it would be impossible.

It amazes me that this is not obvious to the devs and some in the community are just fine with it. It is insane.

Edited by BLXKNTRR, 01 March 2024 - 08:58 AM.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

BLXKNTRR, on 01 March 2024 - 08:57 AM, said:

Just compare the black knight to any orion chassis. Look at the armor difference alone. YES the black knight NEEDS a buff. It is obviously true. Idk how you could possibly be blind to that, but it amazes me the sheep mentality where one mech is fine, totally fine, but for the black knight it would be impossible.

It amazes me that this is not obvious to the devs and some in the community are just fine with it. It is insane.

Fun aside, folks been giving you solid feedback and in the end you are free to propose your subjective judgement to the Cauldron. Red Reaper been published this month, kinda likely he will be tuned anyhow once a certain degree of playtesting been done. Derogative terms like "sheep" makes you sound like some entitled wanna-be ... not helping a constructive discussion nor the potential shortcomings of a certain mech-chassis.

[BLXKNTRR]

Tiy0s, on 28 February 2024 - 10:06 PM, said:

Wouldn't bet on a Black Knight rescale at this time, unfortunately. It's a very involved process, not as easy as typing in a new scale.

Is the Black Knight a very large mech for a 75 tonner? I'd say yes, in my opinion. That being said, the Black Knight is a perfectly fine heavy mech with good firepower and armor quirks to make up for the size. I play MWO a lot to get a sense of balance and it's perfectly fine in my observations and experience. Is it the best? No. Is it good? Yes.

That being said, this thread was also made by a player who has named their account after the original Black Knight Red Reaper, BL-X-KNT-RR. So it's a little like me asking for Kit Fox buffs. Is it a bad mech? No. Am I biased towards the Kit Fox? Yes.

I didnt know the numbers on the orion chassis until now. I am kind of sickened. I knew from experience that the orion was hard to kill, but when I saw that unskilled its superior in everyway to a fully skilled black knight in terms of armor.

Do I really need to pose screen shots from mechlab? Is this not common knowledge? And yet, I get push back on something that is so obvious necessary from both devs and community. It amazes me and sickens me. I apologize for my strong language, but this is insane.

[BLXKNTRR]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 01 March 2024 - 09:01 AM, said:

Fun aside, folks been giving you solid feedback and in the end you are free to propose your subjective judgement to the Cauldron. Red Reaper been published this month, kinda likely he will be tuned anyhow once a certain degree of playtesting been done. Derogative terms like "sheep" makes you sound like some entitled wanna-be ... not helping a constructive discussion nor the potential shortcomings of a certain mech-chassis.

None of that matters. And Im not being subjective. Compare armor of orion to bk. Just numbers. GO and look. Smh. Tell me im subjective. insanity.

[BLXKNTRR]

BLXKNTRR, on 01 March 2024 - 09:14 AM, said:

None of that matters. And Im not being subjective. Compare armor of orion to bk. Just numbers. GO and look. Smh. Tell me im subjective. insanity.

it is sheep like behavior when everyone is mindlessly so entirely, and absurdly wrong, and yet continue to slander and argue the few people who actually try to make things better. Sorry for being an "entitled wanna-be" for purchasing a product, expecting it to function, loving the lore, and the game, and making my voice heard in a community that is content with garbage.

Again, sorry for my strong language, I mean no disrespect. Ive been a part of many communities, and I respect this one the most.

That is why I expect so much more from mwo people.

And listen, I am open to objective criticism. Explain to everyone why I am wrong. using the numbers. Dont insult me. I am not directly insulting anyone.

Edited by BLXKNTRR, 01 March 2024 - 09:20 AM.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

Comparing apples and pears ain't helpful in that regard. Armor values alone do not imply any kind of superiority. You wanna do a somewhat fact-based proposal? Compare hit-boxes, number and location of weapon mounts, agility/speed, quirks etc. ... that is something others can work with. To keep yellin' your personal opinion, deeming it accurate all the way and hope for an supporting echo ain't. Up to you, mate.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 01 March 2024 - 09:21 AM.

[BLXKNTRR]

Recap-

The Black Knight needs some sort of armor buff.

Reasoning- The Orion, a 75 tonner, has 88 armor arms, and 122 side torsos. Similar, if not identical combat roles. I would argue, superior quirks as well.

Solution- buff Black knight to Orion levels

Concession- Keep Black Knight armor the same and add lucky 7 charger anti crit quirks

[ScrapIron Prime]

And we're not blind to these things. Look at my sig file. How happy do you think I was when the Crusader was released, only to find out that there's no use for any of the variants except the two "way too many hardpoints in the arms" ones, that it cannot be the "LRM and Brawl" build that lore tells us about? I made suggestions, little has happened.

And I second that opinion, that armor alone isn't what makes or breaks a mech. Its geometry, mobility, hardpoints, the whole package. Put the Cataphract side by side with the Grasshopper. Why's the Cat so much more tanky? Because hitboxes and hardpoints, the Grasshopper just works better. Same with 75 tonners... the Thanatos has a lot of buffs because its a giant target, while the Marauder is the king of torso twisting damage.

Or the Centurion side by side with the Uziel. They buffed the Centurion and its wonderful, but they buff the Uziel and it still dies quick because of hit boxes. There's only so much that can be done.

EDIT... So tell us... what specific adjustments would make the Black Knight better in your opinion? Make a case for them. And having just read what you typed, why do you think that upping the black knight's armor and structure to equal a mech with horrid hit boxes and worse hardpoint locations is what needs done? (Apart from you wanting your favorite chassis to be as amazing as possible.)

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 01 March 2024 - 09:32 AM.

[Gildashard]

BLXKNTRR, on 01 March 2024 - 08:57 AM, said:

Just compare the black knight to any orion chassis. Look at the armor difference alone.

I just looked and wow....Orion has huge armor buffs. I think any mech with low mounted weapons should have big armor buffs to counter the disadvantage.

Orion
BASE ARMOR (CT)+53
BASE ARMOR (RT)+46
BASE ARMOR (LT)+46
BASE ARMOR (RA)+27
BASE ARMOR (LA)+27
BASE ARMOR (RL)+31
BASE ARMOR (LL)+31

Black Knight

BASE ARMOR (CT)+27
BASE ARMOR (RT)+12
BASE ARMOR (LT)+12
BASE ARMOR (RA)+9
BASE ARMOR (LA)+9
BASE ARMOR (RL)+12
BASE ARMOR (LL)+12

Black Knight (Red Reaper)

BASE ARMOR (CT)+27
BASE ARMOR (RT)+12
BASE ARMOR (LT)+12
BASE ARMOR (RA)+150
BASE ARMOR (LA)+9
BASE ARMOR (RL)+12
BASE ARMOR (LL)+12
BASE STRUCTURE (RA)+32

BK only has 1/4 the armor buff of the Orion. Of course the Orion seems to have way more than other heavies. Also explains why the Orion IIc seems so fragile compared to the orginal.....it has far less armor quirks

[ScrapIron Prime]

Gildashard, on 01 March 2024 - 09:34 AM, said:

I just looked and wow....Orion has huge armor buffs. I think any mech with low mounted weapons should have big armor buffs to counter the disadvantage.

Low mounts and a general lack of ability to torso twist against incoming damage. I think they over-buffed it, but you never saw people playing them until they did that. Now the Onion K is one of my go-to mechs, despite how poor it is at keeping its side torsos intact.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 01 March 2024 - 09:38 AM.

[BLXKNTRR]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 01 March 2024 - 09:19 AM, said:

Comparing apples and pears ain't helpful in that regard. Armor values alone do not imply any kind of superiority. You wanna do a somewhat fact-based proposal? Compare hit-boxes, number and location of weapon mounts, agility/speed, quirks etc. ... that is something others can work with. To keep yellin' your personal opinion, deeming it accurate all the way and hope for an supporting echo ain't. Up to you, mate.

I respect that response. Thank you.

I dont believe the roles are different between the black knight and orion. Any reason to suggest otherwise? I do not see why one would.

The black knight can be somewhat faster but that requires an xl or lighter weapon loadout.

Orion 88 122 164 122 76 ; 2 snubs uac20 3 srm2 artemis. Firepower 53. Heat 1.31 Speed 70

Black knight partisan 67 82 133 82 80 ; 2 snubs uac20 4 ersmalls. Fire power 55 heat 1.35 Speed 72

There are 2 similar mechs with similar loadouts.

Pretty obvious if you ask me.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

Recap-
A / some player(s) deem the Black Knight Legendary being in need for buffs.

Reasoning-
Black Knight Legendary is inferior (to what?), since ONE other 75t mech has more armor (no shield, worse hitboxes, low main-weapon mounts) and better quirks (across all variants).

Solution-
Buff the Black Knight Legendary (based on a potentially biased/unfit comparison) to the armor levels an Orion.

Widen the scope, mate. No offense, but this ain't working. It is so hard to keep somewhat of an equilibrium across a weight class (like heavy mechs in this matter) that allows most mechs / variants to have a legit reason to be played. You gotta keep a whole weight class (or at least a ton-range of +/- 15) in mind when you wanna have a somewhat solid conclusion.

Otherwise I just can second the arguments ScrapIron Prime posted. We ain't here to devalue your favourite mech or opinion, we just do not think your arguments are valid enough to prove your point.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 01 March 2024 - 09:47 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

BLXKNTRR, on 01 March 2024 - 09:39 AM, said:

I respect that response. Thank you.

I dont believe the roles are different between the black knight and orion. Any reason to suggest otherwise? I do not see why one would.

The black knight can be somewhat faster but that requires an xl or lighter weapon loadout.

Orion 88 122 164 122 76 ; 2 snubs uac20 3 srm2 artemis. Firepower 53. Heat 1.31 Speed 70

Black knight partisan 67 82 133 82 80 ; 2 snubs uac20 4 ersmalls. Fire power 55 heat 1.35 Speed 72

There are 2 similar mechs with similar loadouts.

Pretty obvious if you ask me.

That's a good comparison. Now add geometry into it. Check the hit box diagrams below. Note how that no matter how you twist with the Orion, the CT is visible if you just aim for the very top of the mech. And the left torso has kind of a "bunny ear" effect that always gets Blood Asps and Ebon Jags cored out. The Black Knight doesn't have that limitation just by the way its shaped and where the hit boxes are.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

Plus the Orion has no shielding arm and generally bigger/bulkier components => easier to hit!

[ScrapIron Prime]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 01 March 2024 - 09:50 AM, said:

Plus the Orion has no shielding arm and generally bigger/bulkier components => easier to hit!

Pre-cisely. Even on the regular black knight, you can twist and have your arm block most of your side torso and completely block the opposite torso and the CT. On the Orion, you can always hit the CT from any angle, you can always hit the side torso facing you because the arm doesn't block, and you can even hit the LT from the right side.

Hence the reason they mega buffed the armor. Geometry counts!

[Gildashard]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 01 March 2024 - 09:50 AM, said:

Plus the Orion has no shielding arm and generally bigger/bulkier components => easier to hit!

Good point, the Orion is definitely thicker and may warrant high armor buffs. I will say that the BK CT is less likely to get hit which has been my experience with it.....I almost always lose a side torso rather than the CT. I haven't tried the Orion in 2 years so I may give it another go.

I pilot mostly heavies and in the BK I die more often than others. I about lost half a tier trying to play the Red Reaper all day in QP to get get all of the XP tiers. I think its the attention that shield gets, everyone thinks "dmg points" and aims for the RT.

[BLXKNTRR]

I would argue that despite less of a shield arm, the hitboxes are superior on the orion. Torso twist is also 30 points higher on the orion than the black knight partisan. 20 on the better bl-6. That makes no sense to have on a mech that is already so armored

When you torso twist the orion, having a light engine, you use your side torso as the shield if the arm is missed. But remember side torso is 122 vs 82. I use the left side of my mechs to shield, as I prefer right handed mechs- I assume that is the norm as most people are right handed.

Either way, it is by design the more appropriate side torso to shield with when twisting, as it is has less weapons. Making the dmg potential of the orion after left side torso destruction superior. The back of the orion is also more slim( there is a box shape jutting out form the back of the black knights massive side torso that often gets hit when over twisting.


https://i.imgur.com/cHDgpFQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/131kF4i.jpg

All of this is obvious and trivial because the solution is so evident. Simply buff the black knight armor. Or add anti crit quirks.

Which by the way, would help alot on the bk 7 lppc build. (always losing lppcs after a few hits)

My prefered is the 6. I think it is the closest bk to an actual red reaper due to the range quirks that make mxp lasers more viable as the face time required is helped by having a somewhat boosted medium range (340-350 meters vs 270) while assaults are taking the front line position I use 2 snubs for close range corner peaking.

When I peak the corner, I take dmg in my arm and torso. I lose them. Im left with very little weapons. When the orion corner peaks, it can twist faster, peak for 60 dmg and has far less chance of losing a side torso or arm due to the superior armor.

The higher speed of the black knight is not really useful unless running between cover and firing. With an armor buff, it could be more of a brawler. That would be fun. As is, the hit boxes and size making brawling discouraging. You must pic your engagements on weaker damaged mechs, where as with an orion, I can walk up to an atlas and blast him in the face with impunity

That is not fun.

This has been my experience. I feel we've all waited beyond long enough, for years and years and years and years and years...

and at this point is insane that such an iconic mech would be reduced to basically a shadow hawk the size of an annihilator.

[BLXKNTRR]

Gildashard, on 01 March 2024 - 10:01 AM, said:

Good point, the Orion is definitely thicker and may warrant high armor buffs. I will say that the BK CT is less likely to get hit which has been my experience with it.....I almost always lose a side torso rather than the CT. I haven't tried the Orion in 2 years so I may give it another go. I pilot mostly heavies and in the BK I die more often than others. I about lost half a tier trying to play the Red Reaper all day in QP to get get all of the XP tiers. I think its the attention that shield gets, everyone thinks "dmg points" and aims for the RT.

No, the black knight side torso are larger, weaker, and always get hit. every match. Torso twist speed is also slower on the bk than the orion.

The orion is tiny compared to the bk as well, overall.

Go play 50 matches with the orion, and 50 with the bk.

You will see your side torsos are extremely vulnerable.

That is why I almost always use light engines. Also, how often do you lose your torso mounted ac? Now put lppcs on a bk and come back and you will understand.

Lasers not so much, but the less heat and superior dmg of the torso mounted ac on the orion means that a side torso loss on a bk is tantamount to death. Some build may mitigate this, but you will find that with double heat sinks, you are very limited in maintaining heat management post side torso destruction. The best Ive found is to keep your main weapons in the arm you peak with.

But that is besides the point.

EVEN IF the black knight has better geometry- which i dont agree

The armor is so much lower, it doesnt matter.

A similar mech, the charger, benefits on the lucky 7 benefits from anti crit quirks. And with less armor than a bk on center torso, it still performs well. And often it does less dmg per alpha.

That is why I recommended that one possible solution be to add anti crit quirks to the bk.

You could make it 50% perhaps. Add addition 32% on skills. That would keep it from being a lucky 7 clone at 75 tons with more e mounts.

THoughts?

Edited by BLXKNTRR, 01 March 2024 - 10:33 AM.

[BLXKNTRR]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 01 March 2024 - 05:43 AM, said:

The OUZO (Official Union of Zeus Operators) does neither approve, support nor accept any kind of engulfment by third-party agendas. The inappropriate status quo of Zeus's speaks for itself and does not need the profane cackle of already twice-fostered 75t-beatniks lamenting about being missed out.

Quod liket Iovi, non liket bovi! Zeusmembrance Day - Zeusfirmative action NOW!

Lmao what

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sorry, but comparing the Black Knight to the Orion is a pretty faulty comparison. The Black Knight typically doesn't have the firepower issue the Orion is known for because it is an energy boat. Laser vomit is pretty solid. Orion has the issue of just a lack of really solid mid range options that are competitive to laser vomit leaving you to brawling and before the buffs builds were generally two of the following: slow, fragile, anemic firepower-wise. The cauldron chose to give it solid armor since speed has been the typical route and they wanted to do something different, making builds only slow or anemic which is a solid trade-off.

It's also worth noting that the BK is typically XL safe in upper tiers which benefits IS mechs pretty well. Honestly the variants probably just need a little cleaning up. The 7-KNT-L should probably keep its duration quirks and get 5% heat to make it the goto for BLC+ERML vomit, 6B for LPL-ERML, 6 could be HPPC/ERPPC/SNPPC + Smalls, 7 could be XPL boat. Drop the worthless sensor range quirks, maybe buff the sides to make XL checks a little more difficult but honestly the BK feels like one of the better 75 tonners on the IS side of things outside of maybe the Bounty Hunter.