283 replies to this topic

[BLXKNTRR]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 March 2024 - 08:00 AM, said:

The hyperbole here, they are made of glass, but only need an extremely slight survivability buff? Quite the conundrum. I think of all the 75 IS tonners, Black Knights have the smallest side torsos.

Thanatos = largest and easiest to isolate side torsos
Orion = easy to isolate side torsos, not as easy as the Thanatos though
Marauder = stalker profile meaning side torsos typically take a lot of damage

None of the above are really XL safe like the BK is.

Could it use some tweaks? Probably. Is it worth 5 pages of arguments considering there are much worse mechs that could use attention for? No

Your premise that the black knight is xl safe means what exactly? Sounds like a goofy myth

Everyone knows the thanatos is more tanky than the black knight. You think one of the best gauss heavies needs buffed?

Everyone knows the orion is more tanky than thr black knight- it got the buff because of geometry? Is not the black knights dimensions ( annihilator size, but wider) worthy of geometric scrutiny and a subsequent adjustment, one that takes into account its hotboxes of course. I dont expect 122 side torsos

Everyone knows the Marauder is more tanky than the black knight- you think one of thr best heavies needs buffed?

Not sure what xl safe is supposed to mean. You can twist and use arms?
Not really that effective when you consider the black knight is 2 times as tall as 2/3 mechs you listed, and wider. The orion is smaller as well.l, with significantly faster torso twist. It cant spread damage, albeit less on the arms presumably. But more importantly, it can peak a corner, fire and swivel much more effectively and for much greater damage - especially considering laser duration. If the black knight has the best possible set up for corner peaking, it will still be out gunned, out dodged, and out armored by the onion

I play with a light engine, because the extra damage from an xl build is not worth bad heat management, and instant death when my st pops from 2 seconds of exposurer.

Its worth any number of pages. For all the people that play mwo, talking about their experience constructively with overall, fair improvement in mind is worth conversation.

If you dont think so then perhaps you shouldnt be here wasting my time and arguing against a valid request with your petty senseless criticism

The black knight is supposed to be a clan buster inner sphere heavy that is renowned for its durability.
The way it stands the black knight is a joke. It deserves a buff. If other mechs do too in thr eyes of this community, then stand up and fight with me now. Dont criticize me. Saying no we cant buff the black knight because other mechs need buffed. How is shooting down a thread about buffing a mech going to convince the devs to buff other mechs?

Edited by BLXKNTRR, 04 March 2024 - 11:01 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Un-playable? no
Over-scaled? no
Underpowered.. meh.. its laservomit, except for the Partisan Hero, and Reaper. so.. no.

Where it lacks is... agility and structure.
I'm not going to get into the hardpoints, because the chest points were raised a little.

Its one of those Almost assaults, like the Zeus.

Except it has the same structure as a medium mech.

So once that Armor does go, even if you have max structure skill tree and crit reduction, The mech is going to lose the stripped section almost instantly.

Its just one of those glass cannon mechs, like the Kintaro or Battlemaster, where it just really needs that structure to be viable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 10:50 AM, said:

Your premise that the black knight is xl safe means what exactly? Sounds like a goofy myth

Everyone knows the thanatos is more tanky than the black knight. You think one of the best gauss heavies needs buffed?

This is how you lose all credibility, the Thanatos has only 3 more armor per side torso, but has garbage hitboxes. If you think the Thanatos is more tanky, well, there's not really much help for you.

I hate saying it, but your problems with the BK sound like the definition of a skill-issue.

As for XL safe, it means you are much less likely to get XL checked because it is typically harder to check than just wreck the CT. The Grasshopper/Charger are notorious for this as well, being XL safe because well, they have super-wide CTs. I don't think the BK has quite as wide of a CT but it is still typically able to get away with an XL against good shots.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 March 2024 - 11:49 AM.

[BLXKNTRR]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 March 2024 - 11:46 AM, said:

This is how you lose all credibility, the Thanatos has only 3 more armor per side torso, but has garbage hitboxes. If you think the Thanatos is more tanky, well, there's not really much help for you.

I hate saying it, but your problems with the BK sound like the definition of a skill-issue.

As for XL safe, it means you are much less likely to get XL checked because it is typically harder to check than just wreck the CT. The Grasshopper/Charger are notorious for this as well, being XL safe because well, they have super-wide CTs. I don't think the BK has quite as wide of a CT but it is still typically able to get away with an XL against good shots.

Perhaps you are the one with a skill issue, at constructive criticism.. When you fight a thanatos, its dangerous because they have gauss. Stop laying b.s. traps for me on mechs i dont play with. I try to do my due diligence. I bought a zues, i skilled it, i compared. I dont own a thanatos. Either way, the role of the thanatos is much different drom the black knight.

Which is why you make zero sense.

Im quite good in my black knights, thank you. Mr Troll

[BLXKNTRR]

Cyborne Elemental, on 04 March 2024 - 11:12 AM, said:

Un-playable? no
Over-scaled? no
Underpowered.. meh.. its laservomit, except for the Partisan Hero, and Reaper. so.. no.

Where it lacks is... agility and structure.
I'm not going to get into the hardpoints, because the chest points were raised a little.

Its one of those Almost assaults, like the Zeus.

Except it has the same structure as a medium mech.



So once that Armor does go, even if you have max structure skill tree and crit reduction, The mech is going to lose the stripped section almost instantly.

Its just one of those glass cannon mechs, like the Kintaro or Battlemaster, where it just really needs that structure to be viable.

Mostly agree, i see no issue with agility on the black knight. One possible concession to that is the torso twist speed. Its quite good, but if the orion is gonna have 160 vs the black knights 128-140 then it might help make up for the black knight lack of structure.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 12:18 PM, said:

Perhaps you are the one with a skill issue, at constructive criticism.. When you fight a thanatos, its dangerous because they have gauss.

The fact you think the Gauss Thanatos is a serious threat is telling. Double Gauss just isn't what it used to be and is best in blue flashlight poke fights but any closer and it is just outperformed by so many mechs.

To be clear, you can't hand wave the role comparison of the Thanatos and Black Knight if you are also trying to compare the Orion and Black Knight because the Orion and Black Knight do not share the same role either.

Doesn't matter though, you are screaming into the void that is the forums.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 March 2024 - 12:24 PM.

[BLXKNTRR]

@quicksilver

Try address more than point of my arguments and using it as a way to undermine this important topic via ad hominem and straw man trollinn

You want to call my skill in question. Im as good as it gets in a black. Thanks for asking

[BLXKNTRR]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 March 2024 - 12:22 PM, said:

The fact you think the Gauss Thanatos is a serious threat is telling. Double Gauss just isn't what it used to be and is best in blue flashlight poke fights but any closer and it is just outperformed by so many mechs.

To be clear, you can't hand wave the role comparison of the Thanatos and Black Knight if you are also trying to compare the Orion and Black Knight because the Orion and Black Knight do not share the same role either.

Doesn't matter though, you are screaming into the void that is the forums.

1500+ people have viewed this thread. Dually gauss is a threat when you have 80 armor side torsos, and by the time you are facing a thanatos in close range, youre most likely down 30% or more with kittle structure left. It will be a interesting fight. Im not here to compare thanatos to bk tho

The orion is the same role as the black knight.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 12:31 PM, said:

The orion is the same role as the black knight.

Yeah, no they really aren't.

BK is a mid-range pressure mech with the legendary being probably the sole exception (you push against long range and kite/receive short range. The Onion is a push mech, it wants to brawl because it is losing at pretty much everything else even with all that armor. The exception with the Onion being the Protector with the Lt Gauss/ERPPC build.

You can even see this with the builds on GrimMechs:
https://grimmechs.is...ht&f=IS&c=heavy
https://grimmechs.is...on&f=IS&c=heavy

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 March 2024 - 12:38 PM.

[MarcinT1981]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 12:18 PM, said:

Either way, the role of the thanatos is much different drom the black knight.

And what role does Thanatos have?
tns-4s

[Cyborne Elemental]

MarcinT1981, on 04 March 2024 - 12:46 PM, said:

And what role does Thanatos have?
tns-4s

This is why I shoot Thanatos legs whenever possible.

[MarcinT1981]

Cyborne Elemental, on 04 March 2024 - 12:49 PM, said:

This is why I shoot Thanatos legs whenever possible.

[MarcinT1981]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 12:18 PM, said:

Im quite good in my black knights, thank you. Mr Troll

For ****'s sake, stop insulting everyone. Either you are a troll or you cannot understand simple arguments. Several people explain to you and try to help you, but you keep insulting people who, no offense, understand the game much better than you.

[BLXKNTRR]

MarcinT1981, on 04 March 2024 - 01:15 PM, said:

For ****'s sake, stop insulting everyone. Either you are a troll or you cannot understand simple arguments. Several people explain to you and try to help you, but you keep insulting people who, no offense, understand the game much better than you.

My guy, youre clearly in on this trolling. If qucksilver abberation was truly coming st me w constructice criticism, i would be most grateful

But hes not, hes cberry picking 1 thing out of 5 i say, and then straw manning my whole argument

In my book, its some of the people in this thread who are trolls and are repeatedly insulting me or wasting my time by posting disingenuous replies

MarcinT1981, on 04 March 2024 - 12:46 PM, said:

And what role does Thanatos have?
tns-4s

I would imagine the role of carrying dual gauss, so long range, or if it can carry 2 heavy ( i honestly dont know) then hill peaking

2 rolls the orion and the black knight are not suitable for, but that i would argue the orion could make it work better since the armor is an atlas amount of armor

There are plenty of reason why the black knight is a close range support brawler. Theyre called close range energy weapons. I suggest you look them up if youre not familiar

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 March 2024 - 12:37 PM, said:

Yeah, no they really aren't.

BK is a mid-range pressure mech with the legendary being probably the sole exception (you push against long range and kite/receive short range. The Onion is a push mech, it wants to brawl because it is losing at pretty much everything else even with all that armor. The exception with the Onion being the Protector with the Lt Gauss/ERPPC build.

You can even see this with the builds on GrimMechs:
https://grimmechs.is...ht&f=IS&c=heavy
https://grimmechs.is...on&f=IS&c=heavy

Youre out of your depth

The black knight fills the exact same role as the orion

270 metrer rangg-500 meters, with the overwhelming variety of builds. The black knight has the staple weapon called medium lasers. I suggest you find out what they are

[ScrapIron Prime]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 06:09 PM, said:

The black knight fills the exact same role as the orion

Yup, you're totally right. My goodness the Black Knight is so perfectly quirked for this build, it'd be a shame not to use it:

https://mwo.nav-alph...=2d4768ea_ON1-K

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 06:09 PM, said:

270 metrer rangg-500 meters, with the overwhelming variety of builds. The black knight has the staple weapon called medium lasers. I suggest you find out what they are

Most Orions do not operate at that range (typically shorter), and why are you using only standard medium lasers? ERML is the better option because 90m (33% extra range) is easily worth the heat so you can do more damage at BLC/LL/LPL/LXPL range.

The only one who is out of their depth is you, claiming that you and you alone know best how to play a mech.

[BLXKNTRR]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 March 2024 - 07:43 PM, said:

Most Orions do not operate at that range (typically shorter), and why are you using only standard medium lasers? ERML is the better option because 90m (33% extra range) is easily worth the heat so you can do more damage at BLC/LL/LPL/LXPL range.

The only one who is out of their depth is you, claiming that you and you alone know best how to play a mech.

I never said any of that but keep straw manning me, it assumes me

ScrapIron Prime, on 04 March 2024 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yup, you're totally right. My goodness the Black Knight is so perfectly quirked for this build, it'd be a shame not to use it:

https://mwo.nav-alph...=2d4768ea_ON1-K

My God the desperate attempts to do anything and everything possible to cast doubt on the idea thst the black knight should be slightly buffed in terms of durability is hilarious at the point

Yea, should i upload a partisan with lrms and gauss and er large lasers now or???

Cyborne Elemental, on 04 March 2024 - 12:49 PM, said:

This is why I shoot Thanatos legs whenever possible.

I do like my leg shooters. Give em hell!!

[BLXKNTRR]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 04 March 2024 - 07:43 PM, said:

Most Orions do not operate at that range (typically shorter), and why are you using only standard medium lasers? ERML is the better option because 90m (33% extra range) is easily worth the heat so you can do more damage at BLC/LL/LPL/LXPL range.

The only one who is out of their depth is you, claiming that you and you alone know best how to play a mech.

Sir, youre so ridiculous please continue straw manning me so everyone can see how absurd your resistance to buffing the black knights durability (slightly) is

I never said im the only one who knows how to use a black knight, my friend.

I said im (just about) as good as it gets

Im not here asking the devs for some gigantic advantage. Its simply and truly been my experience that the black knight should be just a little bit more durable on the side torsos. Im not asking for armor on the arms or ct. Just a small bump to the side torsos. Or, for ease of implementation, a small anti crit chance quirk or perhaps more structure. Whichever the devs think is better, as well as the community. I value your input. Please relax and try to add some constructive criticism because at this point i genuinely think youre just trollinn

And i dont use just mediums typically. I use mediums on the 7l tho. And i use mxp and medium pulse. Generally i only use er mediums on the 6b. My only xl build ( at the moment) Its around 400 meter range. And I can tell you, its not xl safe. Its quite fragile

Besides theres no reason to use the 6b when you can get a lucky 7 charger.

Edited by BLXKNTRR, 04 March 2024 - 08:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BLXKNTRR, on 04 March 2024 - 08:16 PM, said:

And i dont use just mediums typically. I use mediums on the 7l tho. And i use mxp and medium pulse. Generally i only use er mediums on the 6b. My only xl build ( at the moment) Its around 400 meter range. And I can tell you, its not xl safe. Its quite fragile

Besides theres no reason to use the 6b when you can get a lucky 7 charger.

Well yeah, it isn't safe when you are trying to brawl with it. MPL, MXPL, MLs are all shorter range than you want to use the Black Knight. LL/LPL/BLC/LXPL are your mainstays. You use MXPL, ERML, SXPL to supplement those builds in case something closes or to supplement your alpha but you aren't trying to close that gap outside of maybe against ERLL mechs.

That said, yeah, currently the Charger (1A1, 3K, and N7) are probably better for the tonnage but part of that is definitely because of the strength of LXPLs and the 3K's HSL+2, but that's some of the top meta mechs, my point is that there are mechs that need more attention than the BK. Say all you want about how horrible the BK is, but the only relevant Thanatos is the 5S, and it's only for gimmicky Stealth Gauss builds. It could use love sooner than the BK. The Vindicator (which is getting some attention in March) and the Zeus are worse off than the BK. Plenty others as well.

From what I've seen, Cauldron have limited runway on how many mechs can be adjusted per patch, so that space is typically reserved for the mechs that need it most and the BK doesn't fit that bill.

I'm not saying it couldn't use a light touch (though side armor is less important compared to the importance of the heat quirk for the mech), just that it isn't as dire as you make it out.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 04 March 2024 - 08:42 PM.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 01 March 2024 - 09:01 AM, said:

Red Reaper been published this month, kinda likely he will be tuned anyhow once a certain degree of playtesting been done. [...] ... not helping a constructive discussion nor the potential shortcomings of a certain mech-chassis.

This still running? Don't let him draw you into this circle-conversation any further, just leave him be. As many other mechs / variants BKs might get tuned (or not) in the future ... object lessons for simplistic and tendentious campaigning certainly ain't helping though.