69 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Duke Falcon, on 09 March 2024 - 12:31 AM, said:

In BTverse clan mechs are ballbusters and far from fragile glass-cannons. They are superior by any means even during the Jihad-era and later in the Dark Age (please, delete Dark Age and retcon that!).
Initially an equal fight were 3:1 ratio, three IS mechs were equal with a clan omni. IS finally brought this down to 2:1 ratio. Clan-tech however expensive, harder to maintain and manufacture (that is why even the clans had an insufficient amount of omnimechs in their toumans). And the IS tactic to gang against single targets also helped to "even out the chances" as you said.

Clan Omnis were superior being able to switching out their pods, being module. On an average each omni had 4-6 different possible specific payloads that could be changed out in a few hours, whereas IS mechs were stuck with their mixed components. Lets not forget that "tabletop' balance was primarily based on Stock mechs and loadout. A majority of stock IS mechs really do suck, more so in MWO than the boardgame due to its pinpoint accuracy. And in the boardgame, the average Clan mechwarriors had much better gunnery/piloting rating, and with weapons of the similar category, Clan weapons Short/Medium/Long/Extreme (optional rules) range brackets were larger. And if one played by the Solaris rules (2.5sec/turn) vs standard BT (10secs), Weapon Delays (cooldowns) were usually shorter, not longer as with MWO.

As for the quirks, most Clan weapons had longer ranges, more damage and when introduced the lost of the 1st ST had no penalties. And said mechs could change out their omnipods then pack more weapons, heatsinks/other components took up less slots.

As for Battletech, having an insufficient supply of omni showed itself once their operation plan did not go accordingly to expectations. With a few exceptions in their history, the Clans did not have all out wars but relatively contained encounters for resources where the warriors generally did not fight to the last one standing, nor did the captured population/personnel made attempts to rebel fight back after it was over with. And that Clan Wolf batchall removed essentially removed Clan Warships from the equation.

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Clan omnis were vastly downgraded for MWO because they were f**king IMBA. And because MWO not knows proper organization-implementation (e.g.: an IS company of 12 mechs versus a clan binary of 10 mechs or the likes). It were necessary PGI made that, for balance, or just close toward some kind of a balance.
As OP mentioned the dumb quirk-system... That most probably meant to "balance" the dumb implementation of omni-pod system, considering both seems chassis-based.

PGI could have, or eventually, set Clan Omni to allow 2 slotted Omni of the same mech w/different payloads, in both QP and FP. This would have built up on that feature. There is not anything PGI could really do about the pilot gunnery/piloting "rating" though . And the IS "durability" could be changed up by removing the instant death, even at zero heat, when the 1st ST is lost on an XL, while also giving the LFE, cXL and XL different and progressively higher, but non-lethal penalties, making each one unique. Then armor/structure quirks could be changed up some. But then some Clan mechs are also getting quirks that do not relate on the package/8.

/shrugs.. Okay, I will stop daydreaming, since MWO is now in maintenance mode and we will not see any major updates until MWO sunsets. And once that happens, where will people get their mech fix that does not primarily rotate around NPC?

[next comp]

2.7/10 worst new post

[1453 R]

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

...
Now ontop of all of this they gave all IS ppcs a minimium range damage instead of being useless within 90m but the ATm is still useless within 120 meters.

So I know I left for a while, and I wasn't (and likely still am not) conversant on all the changes made while I was out.

But I'm morally certain, because I've done it myself, that ATMs now have a 60-meter deadzone, not a 120-meter deadzone. Here. I will boot up the game right now and test. I cannot take videos, but I can post comparative screenshots. Like this.

Before:


After:


Same range, same angle, same background scenery - 'Mech did not move. Range of 69m (nice), because I actually discovered running this test that the rangefinder on the R-key paperdoll data is technically not accurate. Or rather, 100% accurate to distances you don't see that don't matter. It's the distance from the center dot of your 'Mech to the center dot of the enemy 'Mech (presumably), so when that number says, for example, 62? It's accurate from anchor point to anchor point, but the actual 'Mech geometries mean that the missile launcher and the bits of the 'Mech you hit are closer than 60m and your warheads bounce with minimal damage. That is useful knowledge to have so thank you for pushing me to open the game up and test this directly.

But yes. ATMs have a deadzone of 60m now, not 120. Which everybody knew. But here's additional proof.

Edited by 1453 R, 09 March 2024 - 09:18 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

ATMs are no longer painful because of the min range, it's very workable

They're painful because of lockon mechanics and usually being too slow to nail anyone when they step out of cover to fire

Even dumbfiring them is pointless so the "lockons should be mediocre" dog doesn't hunt and there are obviously ways to separate modality with missiles that don't get utilized, same with streaks lacking dumbfire

[1Exitar1]

Most of the maps are geared towards sniping and long range builds; not brawling. You do NOT need to be in assault in order to brawl. I love to brawl and pilot lights and mediums mostly. You just can't stand there acting like your Tyson pounding on an opponent. You need to move! For light mechs, speed is life! As soon as you stop, you're dead.

[Gas Guzzler]

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and Clan PPC is suppose to do 15 pinpoint damage but nooo clans can't have that (Looking at you HPCC)

You can have that if you want to increase slots to 4, tons to 10, and reduce range to 540m optimal.


TL;DR: This comparison is utter nonsense.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 March 2024 - 10:04 AM, said:

You can have that if you want to increase slots to 4, tons to 10, and reduce range to 540m optimal.


TL;DR: This comparison is utter nonsense.

don't forget the 90m minimum with ramp down in damage at closer range

[XDarkPrinceX]

I think the simpler solution is to remove all IS mechs

[Alexander of Macedon]

No, remove all mechs and add light vehicles, let us play HarrasserWarrior Online.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Alexander of Macedon, on 09 March 2024 - 12:19 PM, said:

No, remove all mechs and add light vehicles, let us play HarrasserWarrior Online.

The Savanna Master is OP!

Buff the J Edgar!

[Duke Falcon]

ScrapIron Prime, on 09 March 2024 - 12:53 PM, said:

The Savanna Master is OP!

Buff the J Edgar!

I think it's time to talk about IS omni vehicles!

[Ttly]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 March 2024 - 10:04 AM, said:

You can have that if you want to increase slots to 4, tons to 10, and reduce range to 540m optimal. TL;DR: This comparison is utter nonsense.

it's more that clan erppcs have terrible damage per heat than anything else, 0.69 (not counting splash) while IS ERPPC has 0.83.

Oh the cERPPCs also have lower velocity and longer cooldown than the IS ones because yes.

Edited by Ttly, 10 March 2024 - 08:04 AM.

[Daneel Hazen]

The way things played out the IS mechs are effectively omnimechs and it's no secret the Spheroid sympathizers are in charge.

[pattonesque]

Daneel Hazen, on 11 March 2024 - 09:17 AM, said:

The way things played out the IS mechs are effectively omnimechs and it's no secret the Spheroid sympathizers are in charge.

oh for sure man

for folks who have an issue with this, could you share what clan builds you're using that you're having trouble with? I can suggest some adjustments

[pbiggz]

Sigh... here goes...

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

you forgot that almost all clan weapons take longer to do their full damage aside from the LBX and certain other exceptions.

In exchange, they have higher damage. That's what we call a tradeoff. You give, and you get. True to form, you want to get, but you don't want to give.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and Clan PPC is suppose to do 15 pinpoint damage but nooo clans can't have that (Looking at you HPCC)

The Clan ERPPC is lighter and smaller than its IS counterparts. The heavy PPC is both larger, and heaver. Again, tradeoff. For higher damage, the heavy PPC must be heavier, and larger. Again, you don't want to give, only get.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and now HAG does the same because IS whiny babies couldn't learn how to torso twist.

HAG changes are an indication that the cauldron has a distinct idea of what the weapon should be, agree or disagree. Bias against clans does not, and has never factored into decision making on it.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

of all the newest weapons I've died at least 4 times to HAG shots... and alot more to binary lasers and x-pulse.

Put quite simply, i don't believe you. You have a proven record of presenting your anecdotes very selectively.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

Now ontop of all of this they gave all IS ppcs a minimium range damage instead of being useless within 90m but the ATm is still useless within 120 meters.

Comparing two completely different weapons is questionable. ATMs suffer form lock-on-itis and designers need to revisit the weapons across the board with a fresh outlook. You're comparing a clan lock on weapon to IS PPCs, which are, justifiably, one of the best and most popular weapon families in the game, and again insinuating that this is a sign of bias from the developer.

Sorry, i've been a good boy, but i could not ignore this, especially when there are so many rapid fire lies and misdirects coming out of this one post.

The only way you can say clans are underpowered is if you deliberately and willfully ignore all the ways they are distinctly not underpowered. Around where im from, we call that lying. What do you call it i wonder?

Edited by pbiggz, 11 March 2024 - 11:45 AM.

[Ttly]

pbiggz, on 11 March 2024 - 11:42 AM, said:

The only way you can say clans are underpowered is if you deliberately and willfully ignore all the ways they are distinctly not underpowered. Around where im from, we call that lying. What do you call it i wonder?

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?
Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?
What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.
The Dire Wolf is the few example where it worked out thanks to its strong quirks (and lower rating engine that isn't too heavy), not so much for these other mechs.
Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.
Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.
Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.
Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

And this might bbe rather pettiest of them all, but why shouldn't PPCs/ACs+lower arm actuator be allowed? Just let me have some horizontal arm unlocked with these weapons. The Mad2C certainly didn't break the game just because it has arm sway.

Edited by Ttly, 11 March 2024 - 12:58 PM.

[pbiggz]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?

What about all the IS mechs that are bad for specific and cherry picked reasons? C

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?

60 ton mech vs 75 ton mech. Apples and oranges.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.

Is the summoner not one of the best mechs in the game? If your argument is that the stock builds suck, that's true of most IS mechs too.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.

Isn't the linebacker a perfectly serviceable energy boat?

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.

IS does that all the time.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.

The exe is also a great mech. You not liking it does not factor into it being good or not.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.

The Basp is good, idk what point you're making.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

Again, you not liking a mech doesn't make it bad.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

And this might bbe rather pettiest of them all, but why shouldn't PPCs/ACs+lower arm actuator be allowed? Just let me have some horizontal arm unlocked with these weapons. The Mad2C certainly didn't break the game just because it has arm sway.

???



All you seem to be doing here is whining about the mechs you don't personally like. That's not a valid argument nor does it really indicate anything meaningful, or serve as any kind of proof that the developers and designers hate clans specifically.

I'd tell you to try again, but I really don't want you to. You should stop.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 March 2024 - 03:49 PM.

[Gasboy]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?

One of the means of balancing Clans vs IS.

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Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?

Are you trolling? Well, we may as well get rid of all IS mechs because the Marauder AND Orion are both better than the Rifleman. A 75 ton mech is going to objectively be better than a 60 ton mech in the same tech base, unless the 75 tonner is purposefully gimped.

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What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.

The Hellbringer makes for a perfectly serviceable laservom/laserboat platform, with ECM. So8 isn't the be all, end all. If you get your mind out of the So8 trap, you might see things differently.

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Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.

What?

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Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.

Aka SURPRISE M************!!!!

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Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.

Crappy hardpoint location aren't limited to Clans or assaults.

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Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

Okay, and?

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And this might bbe rather pettiest of them all, but why shouldn't PPCs/ACs+lower arm actuator be allowed? Just let me have some horizontal arm unlocked with these weapons. The Mad2C certainly didn't break the game just because it has arm sway.

No, that would make Clans impure. Next you'd be wanting armored fists to *shudders* engage in 'mech fisticuffs.

Edited by Gasboy, 11 March 2024 - 08:11 PM.

[Ttly]

pbiggz, on 11 March 2024 - 03:46 PM, said:

What about all the IS mechs that are bad for specific and cherry picked reasons?

A player has the freedom to make any IS mechs less bad than it is rather than being under the mercy of the devs' willingness to give it quirks.
Or you know, not being locked into an engine that's too heavy.

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60 ton mech vs 75 ton mech. Apples and oranges.

Except the 60t here hardly has any noticable advantages.
Being cheaper in c-bills? Less tonnage? Less BV?
What's that? Once you're in a match, a mech's price tag doesn't matter.

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Is the summoner not one of the best mechs in the game? If your argument is that the stock builds suck, that's true of most IS mechs too.

No, it's not one of the "best mechs in the game", what even gave you that idea? It literally has one of the most asymmetrical cockpit in the game even which makes using the left side rather awkward.
And yeah, most stock builds suck, except omnis have this thing called So8 (and So6 is possible to code into this game if you look at Scaleshot even) builds to try making it work. It's what makes them more unique instead of just "Oh look, enough hardpoints to do the same 3C-ERPPC/C-LPL loadout everyone uses!"

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Isn't the linebacker a perfectly serviceable energy boat?

And like I said, it's just a clan version of the Dragon gameplaywise.
The Dragon is certainly not a mech considered to be top tier, rather undergunned for a heavy if unusually agile and tanky.

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IS does that all the time.

Yeah alright I guess the Zeus does exist and does something similar.

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The exe is also a great mech. You not liking it does not factor into it being good or not.

But I like the Executioner, the -100% UAC jam on the C variant is one of the most fun I've had even, as long as it's on a map that works with it.
You can't read minds.

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Again, you not liking a mech doesn't make it bad.

Okay?

Edited by Ttly, 11 March 2024 - 09:41 PM.

[Curccu]

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

I have a couple of decent MKII's. But then I look at rankings and I see pilots with 30 kills and one death. This is not possible with an MKII. How is it possible otherwise?

Very very skilled pilots and seal clubbing alt accounts.