69 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and Clan PPC is suppose to do 15 pinpoint damage but nooo clans can't have that (Looking at you HPCC)

You can have that if you want to increase slots to 4, tons to 10, and reduce range to 540m optimal.


TL;DR: This comparison is utter nonsense.

[XDarkPrinceX]

I think the simpler solution is to remove all IS mechs

[Alexander of Macedon]

No, remove all mechs and add light vehicles, let us play HarrasserWarrior Online.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Alexander of Macedon, on 09 March 2024 - 12:19 PM, said:

No, remove all mechs and add light vehicles, let us play HarrasserWarrior Online.

The Savanna Master is OP!

Buff the J Edgar!

[Duke Falcon]

ScrapIron Prime, on 09 March 2024 - 12:53 PM, said:

The Savanna Master is OP!

Buff the J Edgar!

I think it's time to talk about IS omni vehicles!

[Ttly]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 March 2024 - 10:04 AM, said:

You can have that if you want to increase slots to 4, tons to 10, and reduce range to 540m optimal. TL;DR: This comparison is utter nonsense.

it's more that clan erppcs have terrible damage per heat than anything else, 0.69 (not counting splash) while IS ERPPC has 0.83.

Oh the cERPPCs also have lower velocity and longer cooldown than the IS ones because yes.

Edited by Ttly, 10 March 2024 - 08:04 AM.

[Daneel Hazen]

The way things played out the IS mechs are effectively omnimechs and it's no secret the Spheroid sympathizers are in charge.

[pattonesque]

Daneel Hazen, on 11 March 2024 - 09:17 AM, said:

The way things played out the IS mechs are effectively omnimechs and it's no secret the Spheroid sympathizers are in charge.

oh for sure man

for folks who have an issue with this, could you share what clan builds you're using that you're having trouble with? I can suggest some adjustments

[pbiggz]

Sigh... here goes...

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

you forgot that almost all clan weapons take longer to do their full damage aside from the LBX and certain other exceptions.

In exchange, they have higher damage. That's what we call a tradeoff. You give, and you get. True to form, you want to get, but you don't want to give.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and Clan PPC is suppose to do 15 pinpoint damage but nooo clans can't have that (Looking at you HPCC)

The Clan ERPPC is lighter and smaller than its IS counterparts. The heavy PPC is both larger, and heaver. Again, tradeoff. For higher damage, the heavy PPC must be heavier, and larger. Again, you don't want to give, only get.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and now HAG does the same because IS whiny babies couldn't learn how to torso twist.

HAG changes are an indication that the cauldron has a distinct idea of what the weapon should be, agree or disagree. Bias against clans does not, and has never factored into decision making on it.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

of all the newest weapons I've died at least 4 times to HAG shots... and alot more to binary lasers and x-pulse.

Put quite simply, i don't believe you. You have a proven record of presenting your anecdotes very selectively.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

Now ontop of all of this they gave all IS ppcs a minimium range damage instead of being useless within 90m but the ATm is still useless within 120 meters.

Comparing two completely different weapons is questionable. ATMs suffer form lock-on-itis and designers need to revisit the weapons across the board with a fresh outlook. You're comparing a clan lock on weapon to IS PPCs, which are, justifiably, one of the best and most popular weapon families in the game, and again insinuating that this is a sign of bias from the developer.

Sorry, i've been a good boy, but i could not ignore this, especially when there are so many rapid fire lies and misdirects coming out of this one post.

The only way you can say clans are underpowered is if you deliberately and willfully ignore all the ways they are distinctly not underpowered. Around where im from, we call that lying. What do you call it i wonder?

Edited by pbiggz, 11 March 2024 - 11:45 AM.

[Ttly]

pbiggz, on 11 March 2024 - 11:42 AM, said:

The only way you can say clans are underpowered is if you deliberately and willfully ignore all the ways they are distinctly not underpowered. Around where im from, we call that lying. What do you call it i wonder?

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?
Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?
What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.
The Dire Wolf is the few example where it worked out thanks to its strong quirks (and lower rating engine that isn't too heavy), not so much for these other mechs.
Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.
Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.
Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.
Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

And this might bbe rather pettiest of them all, but why shouldn't PPCs/ACs+lower arm actuator be allowed? Just let me have some horizontal arm unlocked with these weapons. The Mad2C certainly didn't break the game just because it has arm sway.

Edited by Ttly, 11 March 2024 - 12:58 PM.

[pbiggz]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?

What about all the IS mechs that are bad for specific and cherry picked reasons? C

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?

60 ton mech vs 75 ton mech. Apples and oranges.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.

Is the summoner not one of the best mechs in the game? If your argument is that the stock builds suck, that's true of most IS mechs too.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.

Isn't the linebacker a perfectly serviceable energy boat?

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.

IS does that all the time.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.

The exe is also a great mech. You not liking it does not factor into it being good or not.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.

The Basp is good, idk what point you're making.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

Again, you not liking a mech doesn't make it bad.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

And this might bbe rather pettiest of them all, but why shouldn't PPCs/ACs+lower arm actuator be allowed? Just let me have some horizontal arm unlocked with these weapons. The Mad2C certainly didn't break the game just because it has arm sway.

???



All you seem to be doing here is whining about the mechs you don't personally like. That's not a valid argument nor does it really indicate anything meaningful, or serve as any kind of proof that the developers and designers hate clans specifically.

I'd tell you to try again, but I really don't want you to. You should stop.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 March 2024 - 03:49 PM.

[Gasboy]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?

One of the means of balancing Clans vs IS.

Quote

Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?

Are you trolling? Well, we may as well get rid of all IS mechs because the Marauder AND Orion are both better than the Rifleman. A 75 ton mech is going to objectively be better than a 60 ton mech in the same tech base, unless the 75 tonner is purposefully gimped.

Quote

What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.

The Hellbringer makes for a perfectly serviceable laservom/laserboat platform, with ECM. So8 isn't the be all, end all. If you get your mind out of the So8 trap, you might see things differently.

Quote

Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.

What?

Quote

Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.

Aka SURPRISE M************!!!!

Quote

Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.

Crappy hardpoint location aren't limited to Clans or assaults.

Quote

Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

Okay, and?

Quote

And this might bbe rather pettiest of them all, but why shouldn't PPCs/ACs+lower arm actuator be allowed? Just let me have some horizontal arm unlocked with these weapons. The Mad2C certainly didn't break the game just because it has arm sway.

No, that would make Clans impure. Next you'd be wanting armored fists to *shudders* engage in 'mech fisticuffs.

Edited by Gasboy, 11 March 2024 - 08:11 PM.

[Ttly]

pbiggz, on 11 March 2024 - 03:46 PM, said:

What about all the IS mechs that are bad for specific and cherry picked reasons?

A player has the freedom to make any IS mechs less bad than it is rather than being under the mercy of the devs' willingness to give it quirks.
Or you know, not being locked into an engine that's too heavy.

Quote

60 ton mech vs 75 ton mech. Apples and oranges.

Except the 60t here hardly has any noticable advantages.
Being cheaper in c-bills? Less tonnage? Less BV?
What's that? Once you're in a match, a mech's price tag doesn't matter.

Quote

Is the summoner not one of the best mechs in the game? If your argument is that the stock builds suck, that's true of most IS mechs too.

No, it's not one of the "best mechs in the game", what even gave you that idea? It literally has one of the most asymmetrical cockpit in the game even which makes using the left side rather awkward.
And yeah, most stock builds suck, except omnis have this thing called So8 (and So6 is possible to code into this game if you look at Scaleshot even) builds to try making it work. It's what makes them more unique instead of just "Oh look, enough hardpoints to do the same 3C-ERPPC/C-LPL loadout everyone uses!"

Quote

Isn't the linebacker a perfectly serviceable energy boat?

And like I said, it's just a clan version of the Dragon gameplaywise.
The Dragon is certainly not a mech considered to be top tier, rather undergunned for a heavy if unusually agile and tanky.

Quote

IS does that all the time.

Yeah alright I guess the Zeus does exist and does something similar.

Quote

The exe is also a great mech. You not liking it does not factor into it being good or not.

But I like the Executioner, the -100% UAC jam on the C variant is one of the most fun I've had even, as long as it's on a map that works with it.
You can't read minds.

Quote

Again, you not liking a mech doesn't make it bad.

Okay?

Edited by Ttly, 11 March 2024 - 09:41 PM.

[Curccu]

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

I have a couple of decent MKII's. But then I look at rankings and I see pilots with 30 kills and one death. This is not possible with an MKII. How is it possible otherwise?

Very very skilled pilots and seal clubbing alt accounts.

[foamyesque]

Gasboy, on 11 March 2024 - 08:10 PM, said:

The Hellbringer makes for a perfectly serviceable laservom/laserboat platform, with ECM. So8 isn't the be all, end all. If you get your mind out of the So8 trap, you might see things differently.

Hell, the Hellbie is one of the best lasvom platforms in the game. ECM, high mounts, good profile, and good but not excessive speed means you can get the firepower where you need to and cool it to boot.


If you're sticking to So8 omnis you're intentionally depriving yourself of the key advantage omnimechs get: being able to customize their hardpoints. That is the whole reason they lose out on engine, structure, etc, options, and while I suppose you could argue the relative merits, being able to stack more or less exactly the hardpoints you want is a pretty useful feature.

Especially when you can fill those hardpoints with clantech gunnery.

[Curccu]

How did I miss this thread... pure gold.

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

I have a couple of decent MKII's. But then I look at rankings and I see pilots with 30 kills and one death. This is not possible with an MKII. How is it possible otherwise?

Very very skilled pilots and seal clubbing alt accounts.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

you forgot that almost all clan weapons take longer to do their full damage aside from the LBX and certain other exceptions.

You forget that almost all clan weapons do more damage than IS counterparts

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and Clan PPC is suppose to do 15 pinpoint damage but nooo clans can't have that (Looking at you HPCC)

Looking at you not being able to do size and weight comparison with cERPPC and HPPC

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

and now HAG does the same because IS whiny babies couldn't learn how to torso twist.

HAG was stupidly OP, I know I used it a lot.

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

Now ontop of all of this they gave all IS ppcs a minimium range damage instead of being useless within 90m but the ATm is still useless within 120 meters.

And IS LRM doesn't fit into this comparison instead of PPCs?

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 06:57 AM, said:

it's more that clan erppcs have terrible damage per heat than anything else, 0.69 (not counting splash) while IS ERPPC has 0.83.
Oh the cERPPCs also have lower velocity and longer cooldown than the IS ones because yes.

You are not counting the splash why? It is damage and not any of the pilots in this game are not that good that they hit 100% CT.
how many percent smaller and lighter cERPPC is than IS ERPPC?

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?
Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?

What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.

The Dire Wolf is the few example where it worked out thanks to its strong quirks (and lower rating engine that isn't too heavy), not so much for these other mechs.

Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.

Some mechs are bad by core design from BT same goes for IS. I wouldn't recommend playing almost any stock omnis they are just bad So8 is trying to make them playable but not good.
Summoner is a good mech twin ERPPC/SRM are really good on that one. (Sure Vapor Eagle can do ERPPC build way better)
You probably haven't played FP much but linebacker wolfpacks have been very successful tactic in some scenarios (conquest in large maps for example)

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.
Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.

Both are GOOD mechs, Exe is stupidly good if player has enough skill to handle it.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

Blood as is very good trade mech, no need to be on snipy range.
Warhawk is not bad mech.

[MarcinT1981]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?
Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?
What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.
The Dire Wolf is the few example where it worked out thanks to its strong quirks (and lower rating engine that isn't too heavy), not so much for these other mechs.
Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.
Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.
Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.
Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

All the mechs you mentioned are very good
Good Brawler mdd-prime
Again good brawler smn-b
Dire Wolf heh... whatever you want
dwf-c
dwf-c
dwf-w
dwf-uv
Very strong, mid to long range bas-b
Very strong brawler gar-d
OP as hell exe-a Edit , why i put 5 Spl , nvm 6Spl and 6 micro
Very good sniper whk-prime

Edited by MarcinT1981, 12 March 2024 - 02:35 AM.

[torsie]

The best clan girl bas-a

[pbiggz]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

A player has the freedom to make any IS mechs less bad than it is rather than being under the mercy of the devs' willingness to give it quirks.
Or you know, not being locked into an engine that's too heavy.

Players have the freedom to make clan mechs less bad too. Its called using the right build, and playing to a mech's advantages. Spud mechs are spud mechs, thats why quirks exist. You have not proven a bias here.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

Except the 60t here hardly has any noticable advantages.
Being cheaper in c-bills? Less tonnage? Less BV?
What's that? Once you're in a match, a mech's price tag doesn't matter.

Your preferences and lack of imagination do not indicate or prove a bias.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

No, it's not one of the "best mechs in the game", what even gave you that idea? It literally has one of the most asymmetrical cockpit in the game even which makes using the left side rather awkward.
And yeah, most stock builds suck, except omnis have this thing called So8 (and So6 is possible to code into this game if you look at Scaleshot even) builds to try making it work. It's what makes them more unique instead of just "Oh look, enough hardpoints to do the same 3C-ERPPC/C-LPL loadout everyone uses!"

And like I said, it's just a clan version of the Dragon gameplaywise.
The Dragon is certainly not a mech considered to be top tier, rather undergunned for a heavy if unusually agile and tanky.

The summoner is one of the best mechs in the game. You're telling on yourself here. Your opinion is one that you could only hold if you didnt take the time to understand what the Summoner is and how it works, which seems to be the case.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

Yeah alright I guess the Zeus does exist and does something similar.


But I like the Executioner, the -100% UAC jam on the C variant is one of the most fun I've had even, as long as it's on a map that works with it.
You can't read minds.

So you conceded your own point part way through your post. Nice. Im glad we agree that both clan and IS mechs are distinctly balanced in their own ways, there are some outliers on either side but as a whole both are in a pretty good spot.

Edited by pbiggz, 13 March 2024 - 05:41 AM.

[An6ryMan69]

If the OP likes Battletech generally but has major issues with MWO, then give MW5 a try. Same battletech universe but completely different look and feel with vastly more player options, including not worrying whatsoever about what's Clan or not, as all tech is mix-and-match as you please anyway.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 14 March 2024 - 03:38 PM.