69 replies to this topic

[foamyesque]

Gasboy, on 11 March 2024 - 08:10 PM, said:

The Hellbringer makes for a perfectly serviceable laservom/laserboat platform, with ECM. So8 isn't the be all, end all. If you get your mind out of the So8 trap, you might see things differently.

Hell, the Hellbie is one of the best lasvom platforms in the game. ECM, high mounts, good profile, and good but not excessive speed means you can get the firepower where you need to and cool it to boot.


If you're sticking to So8 omnis you're intentionally depriving yourself of the key advantage omnimechs get: being able to customize their hardpoints. That is the whole reason they lose out on engine, structure, etc, options, and while I suppose you could argue the relative merits, being able to stack more or less exactly the hardpoints you want is a pretty useful feature.

Especially when you can fill those hardpoints with clantech gunnery.

[Curccu]

How did I miss this thread... pure gold.

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

I have a couple of decent MKII's. But then I look at rankings and I see pilots with 30 kills and one death. This is not possible with an MKII. How is it possible otherwise?

Very very skilled pilots and seal clubbing alt accounts.

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

you forgot that almost all clan weapons take longer to do their full damage aside from the LBX and certain other exceptions.

You forget that almost all clan weapons do more damage than IS counterparts

KursedVixen, on 09 March 2024 - 05:26 AM, said:

and Clan PPC is suppose to do 15 pinpoint damage but nooo clans can't have that (Looking at you HPCC)

Looking at you not being able to do size and weight comparison with cERPPC and HPPC

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

and now HAG does the same because IS whiny babies couldn't learn how to torso twist.

HAG was stupidly OP, I know I used it a lot.

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

Now ontop of all of this they gave all IS ppcs a minimium range damage instead of being useless within 90m but the ATm is still useless within 120 meters.

And IS LRM doesn't fit into this comparison instead of PPCs?

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 06:57 AM, said:

it's more that clan erppcs have terrible damage per heat than anything else, 0.69 (not counting splash) while IS ERPPC has 0.83.
Oh the cERPPCs also have lower velocity and longer cooldown than the IS ones because yes.

You are not counting the splash why? It is damage and not any of the pilots in this game are not that good that they hit 100% CT.
how many percent smaller and lighter cERPPC is than IS ERPPC?

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?
Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?

What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.

The Dire Wolf is the few example where it worked out thanks to its strong quirks (and lower rating engine that isn't too heavy), not so much for these other mechs.

Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.

Some mechs are bad by core design from BT same goes for IS. I wouldn't recommend playing almost any stock omnis they are just bad So8 is trying to make them playable but not good.
Summoner is a good mech twin ERPPC/SRM are really good on that one. (Sure Vapor Eagle can do ERPPC build way better)
You probably haven't played FP much but linebacker wolfpacks have been very successful tactic in some scenarios (conquest in large maps for example)

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.
Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.

Both are GOOD mechs, Exe is stupidly good if player has enough skill to handle it.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

Blood as is very good trade mech, no need to be on snipy range.
Warhawk is not bad mech.

[MarcinT1981]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

Okay, what about those Omnis with standard structure+FF or standard armor then?
Let's take the Vulture/Mad Dog. In most cases it is a strictly inferior Timber Wolf, less available tonnage, less hardpoints, not even more agility/offensive quirks. Oh but it can mount more missiles/ballistics thanks to the slots and omnipod combos, but that's about it?
What about the Thor? It has a lot of +structure quirks sure, and a dearth of hardpoints on So8 for some variants, lack of available tonnage doesn't really help it either.
The Dire Wolf is the few example where it worked out thanks to its strong quirks (and lower rating engine that isn't too heavy), not so much for these other mechs.
Linebacker? It only exists in the lore because some clanners thought that heavies moving at 81kph is too slow. But okay, it has Endo+FF, but oh wait it has an cXL 390 engine that's too heavy.
Here it's just the clan version of the Dragon with its uniquely high accel/decel for heavy except it can't dab.
Gargoyle? A heavy pretending to be assault.
Executioner? Okay, it has a LOT of energy hardpoints, but other builds for it that isn't just laser spam is kind of meh due to hardpoint placement.
Blood Asp? Good hardpoint placement, mostly played by people to snipe, but otherwise an decent mech if rather unagile.
Warhawk? It's a giant cube just like the DWF but smaller and is surprisingly underwhelming. Surprisingly quick though.

All the mechs you mentioned are very good
Good Brawler mdd-prime
Again good brawler smn-b
Dire Wolf heh... whatever you want
dwf-c
dwf-c
dwf-w
dwf-uv
Very strong, mid to long range bas-b
Very strong brawler gar-d
OP as hell exe-a Edit , why i put 5 Spl , nvm 6Spl and 6 micro
Very good sniper whk-prime

Edited by MarcinT1981, 12 March 2024 - 02:35 AM.

[torsie]

The best clan girl bas-a

[pbiggz]

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

A player has the freedom to make any IS mechs less bad than it is rather than being under the mercy of the devs' willingness to give it quirks.
Or you know, not being locked into an engine that's too heavy.

Players have the freedom to make clan mechs less bad too. Its called using the right build, and playing to a mech's advantages. Spud mechs are spud mechs, thats why quirks exist. You have not proven a bias here.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

Except the 60t here hardly has any noticable advantages.
Being cheaper in c-bills? Less tonnage? Less BV?
What's that? Once you're in a match, a mech's price tag doesn't matter.

Your preferences and lack of imagination do not indicate or prove a bias.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

No, it's not one of the "best mechs in the game", what even gave you that idea? It literally has one of the most asymmetrical cockpit in the game even which makes using the left side rather awkward.
And yeah, most stock builds suck, except omnis have this thing called So8 (and So6 is possible to code into this game if you look at Scaleshot even) builds to try making it work. It's what makes them more unique instead of just "Oh look, enough hardpoints to do the same 3C-ERPPC/C-LPL loadout everyone uses!"

And like I said, it's just a clan version of the Dragon gameplaywise.
The Dragon is certainly not a mech considered to be top tier, rather undergunned for a heavy if unusually agile and tanky.

The summoner is one of the best mechs in the game. You're telling on yourself here. Your opinion is one that you could only hold if you didnt take the time to understand what the Summoner is and how it works, which seems to be the case.

Ttly, on 11 March 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

Yeah alright I guess the Zeus does exist and does something similar.


But I like the Executioner, the -100% UAC jam on the C variant is one of the most fun I've had even, as long as it's on a map that works with it.
You can't read minds.

So you conceded your own point part way through your post. Nice. Im glad we agree that both clan and IS mechs are distinctly balanced in their own ways, there are some outliers on either side but as a whole both are in a pretty good spot.

Edited by pbiggz, 13 March 2024 - 05:41 AM.

[An6ryMan69]

If the OP likes Battletech generally but has major issues with MWO, then give MW5 a try. Same battletech universe but completely different look and feel with vastly more player options, including not worrying whatsoever about what's Clan or not, as all tech is mix-and-match as you please anyway.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 14 March 2024 - 03:38 PM.

[FriedIV]

This has been an interesting read. With , as usual a plethora of useless rants and interesting insights. I'm glad there is still a btech community attached to MWO. I started with Clan Jade Falcon on mplayer or some similar client with MW3 I believe. Lag shooting and JJ sliding was a frustrating blast. Then as now I spent a lot of time trying to squeeze the best mech out of my allowed chassis as possible. Most of the fun for me is building a better mech. But, due to the extremism of man and the limitations of the devs this is a fools game. I understand why all of the mechs have to be basically uniform. But, I don't like it. I understand why MWO maps are so small and cluttered, all matches end in face to face brawls, gotta keep those servers churning. But, I don't like it. The thing about MWO vs other fps games is the finality of death. You don't just respawn and head back where you died. Nutz. I'm sixty-two years old now. I definitely cannot keep up with twitchy fingers. I had a pilot back when, 12 year old called Ultramek, he was fast. I started this thread as a rant. I knew it was a mistake as soon as I did it. So, I deleted it, then thought about it, then rewrote it. The game is forcing us to play a certain way. And it is aggravating me. I've tried hard to follow the rules and elevate my skill rating. But watching that number go up or go down has become unfun. Yet like wise I have to ask who is a skill level 1 pilot and how are they better than me? I know my reflexes are standard. My PC is pretty good. My internet access is passable. And I work very hard to make solid clan mechs.
It's an interesting condition that I have noticed during this recent journey. Once I rebuilt my mechs and truly focused on upping my skill rating, I noticed that sometimes I would build a mech that worked. And for a hand full of matches I was invincible. But then the opposite would happen. I would go on seemingly endless loosing streaks. Not just my team but also myself. Bad choices. And the luck of a draw that put me with not so bright bulbs, where my excuses. It is scary when a team drops and wins with a 12 : 1 win. I've been on the winning and loosing side of those. And it really didn't matter if I was there or not.
I guess what I really want is insight. How is this done? I loved the osiris video that was done. That is a mean mech. But I do not think I could play it well. Especially while watching my skill rating drop right back off the scale again. So many aspects of this game go against the lights. You can't get the damage. You're running around scouting or capping, no points. A similar story can be said for mediums and even heavies. With an assault and a fairly good round of damage you will increase your skill points, win or loose.

Mechs:
Assault:
MKII-B 2-LBX5, 2 - AC5, JJ
DW - C 2 - er LLas, 2 - HLLas, 2 - erMLas , 2 - ATM 6

Heavy:
TBR-H 2 - AC10 , 2 - LRM 10, 2 - c Streak 6

MDD C(C) 6 - ATM3, 4 - HMedLas

MDD RV 2 - HLLas 2 - erLLas

I like the MDD frame own most of them But, I cannot get MMD Prime to work.

EJB-EC 1 - AC10 , 1 - HLLas, 2 - ArtyLRM 15

Medium

SHC-B 2 - ATM 3 , 2 HMedLas

HMN-Prime 1 - LPLas , 6 erMLas

Lite:
MLX-G 3 HMedLas, 6 CMachineGun

Right now I have 86 mechs. I'd say the mechs listed above are my best mechs. I prefer to play heavy. I always carry Active Probe. I've started removing Targeting Computers due to their uselessness. I don't need to know who you are I need to know where you are and lock on as fast as possible. The description of the targeting computer is misleading. It does not speed up locking on target. I used to always use ECM mechs but that has changed. A big rock works too. And how do those narc missiles appear out of nowhere?

An6ryMan69, on 14 March 2024 - 03:34 PM, said:

If the OP likes Battletech generally but has major issues with MWO, then give MW5 a try. Same battletech universe but completely different look and feel with vastly more player options, including not worrying whatsoever about what's Clan or not, as all tech is mix-and-match as you please anyway.

I prefer the IS/Clan nature of things. I was born in a tube, remember? I just want to be able to make it work reliably.

Thx All

[Alexander of Macedon]

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

The MKII is one of the few mechs that can be made to stand toe to toe. But again , as stated, this is brawling. Everything about MWO is tilted towards quick brawling matches. I have a couple of decent MKII's. But then I look at rankings and I see pilots with 30 kills and one death. This is not possible with an MKII.

Not possible for you.

FriedIV, on 15 March 2024 - 04:31 AM, said:

MKII-B 2-LBX5, 2 - AC5, JJ

This is a large part of why why you can't get as good of a performance out of your MCII-B.

The "standard" build on it is 2x cUAC/10 + 2x cUAC/5. In the time it takes your build to do a single 20-damage alpha, this build can double-tap for 60 damage. Add on behavioral things like trading efficiently and good stats are doable. People who have extremely lopsided K/D are usually the ones who hide in a corner until late in the match then go kill all of the mostly-destroyed enemies remaining, or who run away and shut down in a hiding spot when their team starts losing.

I will tell you that nobody who has a high K/D is actively seeking out brawls. MWO damn sure isn't tilted towards brawling and I'm not sure where you got that impression. Almost everyone is running a build specialized in sniping, trading, or skirmish/ambushing (i.e lights and mediums that attack in close range but don't try to stay there and trade damage). Even if you get your 'mech into brawling range it's pretty rare to consistently get more than one kill per life in QP.

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

How is it possible otherwise? I don't like being forced into an assault just to level the battlefield. But the line is drawn with heavys/ And what about the binary lasers and x-pulse lasers and stealth in heavies.

Heavies aren't better, they're easier to play. Assaults depend so heavily on awareness and positioning that they tend to be worse picks for people who aren't very good.

FWIW, I'm not the best player in the world. Maybe decent. This is a list of 'mechs I have >2.0 K/D on, disregarding ones I've played <10 times: ACH-C, BJ-1, BLR-2C, BNC-3M(C), CP-S, CPLT-C4, CTF-IM, HBK-IIC, HMN-B, LCT-1E, MC-IIB, Revenant, OSR-4D, PIR-1(S), PIR-2, RVN-3L, RVN-4X, SDR-5K, SHD-2D2, TBR-A, Howl, TDR-10SE(S), UM-R63, UZL-2S.

Of my best-performing 'mechs (in terms of KDR), 17% are assaults, 25% are heavies, 21% are mediums, 37% are lights. 37% are clan, 63% are IS -- but I own markedly more IS 'mechs than Clan ones.

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 06:14 PM, said:

I don't think the haters care to open their minds cause they are IS dedicants. I knew I should not have done this when I did. But I just am furious over how fragile clan mechs are.

Calling everyone who disagrees with you or who suggests that your personal experience is not universal objective truth a hater is not going to convince anyone. Clan 'mechs don't get as much armor/structure quirking specifically because they perform better than their IS counterparts (with good builds).

Also, not trying to be mean, but all of the favorite builds you listed are a ) tabletop bracket builds that do not work effectively in MWO or b ) badly undergunned. Often both. If you want to run tabletop-style builds, MW5 is a much better environment for that, since it's actual combined-arms combat against large numbers of enemies instead of 12v12 arena deathmatch against other people where specializing into a single range band and maximizing damage output in that band is paramount.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 15 March 2024 - 05:59 AM.

[pattonesque]

FriedIV, on 15 March 2024 - 04:31 AM, said:

Mechs:
Assault:
MKII-B 2-LBX5, 2 - AC5, JJ
DW - C 2 - er LLas, 2 - HLLas, 2 - erMLas , 2 - ATM 6

Heavy:
TBR-H 2 - AC10 , 2 - LRM 10, 2 - c Streak 6

MDD C(C) 6 - ATM3, 4 - HMedLas

MDD RV 2 - HLLas 2 - erLLas

I like the MDD frame own most of them But, I cannot get MMD Prime to work.

EJB-EC 1 - AC10 , 1 - HLLas, 2 - ArtyLRM 15

Medium

SHC-B 2 - ATM 3 , 2 HMedLas

HMN-Prime 1 - LPLas , 6 erMLas

Lite:
MLX-G 3 HMedLas, 6 CMachineGun

Right now I have 86 mechs. I'd say the mechs listed above are my best mechs. I prefer to play heavy. I always carry Active Probe. I've started removing Targeting Computers due to their uselessness. I don't need to know who you are I need to know where you are and lock on as fast as possible. The description of the targeting computer is misleading. It does not speed up locking on target. I used to always use ECM mechs but that has changed. A big rock works too. And how do those narc missiles appear out of nowhere?

Your MLX and HMN builds are good but the rest are probably a major reason why you're struggling


MKII-B 2-LBX5, 2 - AC5, JJ -- this is not enough firepower for a Mad Cat MK II. If you want a similar build which is more effective, try one of these:

https://mwo.nav-alph...ba6fc3f1_MCII-B
https://mwo.nav-alph...41cbef12_MCII-B


DW - C 2 - er LLas, 2 - HLLas, 2 - erMLas , 2 - ATM 6-- this is also not enough firepower, mixes too many weapons/firing groups, and requires too much staring time with a DWF for not enough damage in return. Maybe try something like this:

https://mwo.nav-alph...=32a0e319_DWF-C
https://mwo.nav-alph...=382eb468_DWF-C
https://mwo.nav-alph...=b50a9e9d_DWF-C

TBR-H 2 - AC10 , 2 - LRM 10, 2 - c Streak 6 -- this is built to engage at three different ranges. Unfortunately it's also built to lose at all of them. Your AC/10s can't compete with dakka boats, your LRM10s will be knocked out of the sky by AMS (and won't do much effective damage if they don't) and your streak-6s aren't going to scare away anyone. These would probably work better:

https://mwo.nav-alph...065dd8_TBR-HLGD
https://mwo.nav-alph...120c76_TBR-HLGD

MDD C(C) 6 - ATM3, 4 - HMedLas -- in general ATM boats need JJs to maximize their effectiveness. the MDD-C also lends itself to ballistic builds, quirk-wise
https://mwo.nav-alph...=e5b10639_MDD-C
https://mwo.nav-alph...=e5b10639_MDD-C


MDD RV 2 - HLLas 2 - erLLas -- these don't sync up terribly well. You can keep either the 2 HLL or 2 ERLL but add a bunch of ERML to them for more effectiveness

https://mwo.nav-alph...edf28944_MDD-RV
https://mwo.nav-alph...66c1e5dc_MDD-RV

in general though I agree that Mad Dogs are in a tough-ish spot.

EJB-EC 1 - AC10 , 1 - HLLas, 2 - ArtyLRM 15 -- too many varied weapon systems, too much staring required for a mech which isn't super durable. Any of these builds will either let you let loose and twist to spread damage or utilize a range advantage
https://mwo.nav-alph...1633ff5b_EBJ-EC
https://mwo.nav-alph...ac0743c3_EBJ-EC
https://mwo.nav-alph...5b102bad_EBJ-EC

Medium

SHC-B 2 - ATM 3 , 2 HMedLas -- Shadow Cats struggle to put out damage and unfortunately this exacerbates that problem. the JJs are good for ATMs but two ATM3s might as well not exist. A traditional poptart might work here:
https://mwo.nav-alph...=7d3bfcea_SHC-B

If you want to rely on the lasers, this could be good (works on any SHC, not just the D):
https://mwo.nav-alph...=630cacf4_SHC-D

[Gas Guzzler]

The post before me is very solid advice.

You may decide that you want to tune the MCII 4AC5 2ERPPC build to go a bit slower and bring more DHS. I'm comfortable running hot builds but they aren't for everyone. (That happens to be one of my favorite weapon sets on the MCII, I've just found I need more heat dissipation than speed for it)

[Venshaw Kerensky]

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 03:35 PM, said:

I could just suck.

[Insects]

The game is much too violent. Weapons should be removed and replaced with food and medicine baskets for the poor civilians.
This would resolve the Clam mech imbalance by eliminating brawls and replacing them with love.

[caravann]

Inner sphere mechs were sold to defeat clan mechs who were solely to be goblins in a dungeon.

The main purpose of the clans is to be defeated. And why mechs like the pillager was created to increase the sales of replacing the old models is the same reason how the clans became the leftovers created from outdated models.

[pbiggz]

caravann, on 17 March 2024 - 03:02 AM, said:

Inner sphere mechs were sold to defeat clan mechs who were solely to be goblins in a dungeon.

The main purpose of the clans is to be defeated. And why mechs like the pillager was created to increase the sales of replacing the old models is the same reason how the clans became the leftovers created from outdated models.

I bet you're fun at parties

[Valdarion Silarius]

caravann, on 17 March 2024 - 03:02 AM, said:

The main purpose of the clans is to be defeated.

Tell that to the writers for Clan Wolf in the IlClan Era.

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 03:35 PM, said:

But, I really don't want to believe that. I spend a lot of time trying to build better mechs. And I stick to clan mechs. Call me foolish. But my better mechs are few and far between. Most of them fall apart if a flea farts. I'm just sick of the one sided view that only IS pilots pay your bills. Deaf ears.

[ScrapIron Prime]

caravann, on 17 March 2024 - 03:02 AM, said:

The main purpose of the clans is to be defeated.

That was true for a couple years right after the clans were introduced in lore. They were the "them" from the other side of space, the opponent du jour to be defeated and unite the inner sphere.

But then the story continued. And as with every story in Battletech, the folks on the other side of the border, on the other side of the fight, are real people too... and they get their story told in time.

[Void Angel]

Ladies and gentlemen! Boys, and/or girls of all ages!

Don't feed the trolls.

[FriedIV]

Clan mechs are broken.

F. O. Valdarion Silarius,
Venshaw Kerensky

Edited by FriedIV, 09 April 2024 - 06:08 PM.

[pattonesque]

FriedIV, on 09 April 2024 - 06:04 PM, said:

Clan mechs are broken.

F. O. Valdarion Silarius,
Venshaw Kerensky

pattonesque, on 08 March 2024 - 06:40 PM, said:

clan mechs are somewhat fragile but make up for it by packing overwhelming firepower. mechs like the Dire Wolf and Stone Rhino can deliver extremely devastating alphas.

Binaries and X-pulses are good on certain mechs. I believe they're getting a slight nerf in the upcoming March patch. Stealth is not particularly strong, however, as it nerfs a mech's DPS. It really only has use cases in light mechs, and even then it doesn't make them more threatening.

Maps these days make brawling viable but mid and long range play are also quite strong. What clan mechs do you prefer playing? I can suggest some builds that I find to be very impactful.

[DONTOR]

The ATM argument is valid, i rarely see them, and would never use them personally.