69 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

DONTOR, on 09 April 2024 - 07:01 PM, said:

The ATM argument is valid, i rarely see them, and would never use them personally.

they require certain mechs to use well (Howl or Veagle come to mind) but they can do work on those mechs.

which is why I keep asking this guy what builds he's using. I get the impression he's not building his mechs well and it's holding him back

[FriedIV]

I use atm3's behind a direct fire weapon like a ppc. The cool down time is what I'm using. A Maddog with 6 atm3's a ppc and lbx5 is a decent build for me.

I really try to stay away from assaults. Basically they are giant targets. Maddogs, Ebon Jaguar, Helbringer, Sunspider and Timberwolf are my primary mechs. Usuall I have an ac10 or ac5 , atm3s, heavy med las , sometimes heavy large. And I try to use ppcs but the heat is always an issue. I built a timber D yesterday with 2 erppc and 4 atm3s . I works but not always well enough. Maybe when it is fully skilled it will be better. My other timber is the howl with 2 ac10 and 4 atm3. Timbers arms are generally too low. And, they really cannot seem to out gun a maddog. The helbringer has a 2xerppc in the torso with and atm9 and I'm trying the new C-ap guass x 4. It's ok. My EBJ-EC has 1xac10, 1 hllas, and 2 artylrm15. Generally I run the atms because so much ammo is wasted shooting at targets that are out of site. As far as lites go I like the sch-b 2xhmlas, 2 x srm6arty.

I'm not sure what my problem is. Except I'm old. I'm on the border between skill level 5 and 4. I seem to win a few and move into 4 then loose a bunch and drop back to 5. And, it is valid that the team that drops decides everything. Sometimes we get rolled. Sometimes we roll. I really cannot speak to the mechanics of the team selection process. I appreciate your interest. But we can debate what works till the cows come home. The XL engine are a weak spot. Though the speed is, at times helpful. Mostly it seems you are supposed to pop off an alpha strike will peaking from behind cover. And eventually you end up in some kind of brawl. I don't like the small area of the maps. Though they are pretty good maps. Some are range maps. some are brawl maps. God forbid you get caught in the wrong mech on the wrong map. I know there are a lot of great pilots and those that are not. I gotta believe that I'm better than it seems I am. So, I don't want to play IS. I'm done for now. Thx

Edited by FriedIV, 10 April 2024 - 09:00 AM.

[pattonesque]

FriedIV, on 10 April 2024 - 08:24 AM, said:

I use atm3's behind a direct fire weapon like a ppc. The cool down time is what I'm using. A Maddog with 6 atm3's a ppc and lbx5 is a decent build for me.

I really try to stay away from assaults. Basically they are giant targets. Maddogs, Ebon Jaguar, Helbringer, Sunspider and Timberwolf are my primary mechs. Usuall I have an ac10 or ac5 , atm3s, heavy med las , sometimes heavy large. And I try to use ppcs but the heat is always an issue. I built a timber D yesterday with 2 erppc and 4 atm3s . I works but not always well enough. Maybe when it is fully skilled it will be better. My other timber is the howl with 2 ac10 and 4 atm3. Timbers arms are generally too low. And, they really cannot seem to out gun a maddog. The helbringer has a 2xerppc in the torso with and atm9 and I'm trying the new C-ap guass x 4. It's ok. My EBJ-EC has 1xac10, 1 hllas, and 2 artylrm15. Generally I run the atms because so much ammo is wasted shooting at targets that are out of site. As far as lites go I like the sch-b 2xhmlas, 2 x srm6arty.

I'm not sure what my problem is. Except I'm old. I'm on the border between skill level 5 and 4. I seem to win a few and move into 4 then loose a bunch and drop back to 5. And, it is valid that the team that drops decides everything. Sometimes we get rolled. Sometimes we roll. I really cannot speak to the mechanics of the team selection process. I appreciate your interest. But we can debate what works till the cows come home. The XL engine are a weak spot. Though the speed is, at times helpful. Mostly it seems you are supposed to pop off an alpha strike will peaking from behind cover. And eventually you end up in some kind of brawl. I don't like the small area of the maps. Though they are pretty good maps. Some are range maps. some are brawl maps. God forbid you get caught in the wrong mech on the wrong map. I know there are a lot of great pilots and those that are not. I gotta believe that I'm better than it seems I am. So, I don't want to play IS. I'm done for now. Thx

OK, perfect! Lemme see if I can give you some builds that will work.

First: ATMs are best if you can poptart with them. They can put out a lot of damage but you have to stare with them too much and the fact that they're not really indirect fire means you have to expose yourself to the enemy. So your best bet is to hover, get a quick lock, fire, and drop back into cover. This also lets you engage from closer to ATM optimal range. These builds have worked for me and others in the past:
https://mwo.nav-alph...=af8a86ba_VGL-3
https://mwo.nav-alph...=79427490_VGL-1
https://mwo.nav-alph...065dd8_TBR-HLGD
https://mwo.nav-alph...=7fc8e8a8_SNV-A

For your other builds, you're mixing and matching weapon types/ranges/cooldowns too much. Take the ERPPC/ATM and AC10/ATM builds you're using. this is a mixture of pinpoint and spread damage that makes you worse at both and decreases your DPS. I'll only post builds I'm confident will work, but there are far more that you can try on grimmechs.

For your Timber Wolves, lasers are basically always a good choice. You can do LPL/ML laservomit
https://mwo.nav-alph...dfe247fd_TBR-BH

Or LPLs
https://mwo.nav-alph...dfe247fd_TBR-BH

For the Howl, you can also do a traditional sniper build
https://mwo.nav-alph...73ae6b_TBR-HLGD

Hellbringers are also very good laserboys. More fragile than TBRs and no JJs but better mounts. Builds like this will work for you.
https://mwo.nav-alph...dd173_HBR-PRIME

Haven't really played EBJs much but they also function with laservomit
https://mwo.nav-alph...=592b2e1b_EBJ-B

Good dakka on this EBJ too
https://mwo.nav-alph...=b4cb536d_EBJ-A

Sunspiders, you can do more ballistic stuff. Either of these are fun
https://mwo.nav-alph...=829bca0d_SNS-D
https://mwo.nav-alph...=ffe7971b_SNS-D

Mad Dogs, unfortunately, are not super great. You could do HAG20s
https://mwo.nav-alph...=e5b10639_MDD-C

or dakka
https://mwo.nav-alph...=3c94a6e8_MDD-C

or splat
https://mwo.nav-alph...=9db72ad8_MDD-A

As for the Shadow Cat, an ERPPC poptart is usually the safest bet
https://mwo.nav-alph...=7d3bfcea_SHC-B

What I would say is that with clan mechs in particular (and really all mechs) you want to focus on being able to put out the largest sustainable alpha possible at the same range. This means that sometimes you'll have to maneuver a bit in order to engage, like if you're a brawler in a sniper map or vice versa. But overall, it's better to build a mech to win at one range than to lose at two. Hope this helps!

[FriedIV]

"First: ATMs are best if you can poptart with them. They can put out a lot of damage but you have to stare with them too much and the fact that they're not really indirect fire means you have to expose yourself to the enemy. So your best bet is to hover, get a quick lock, fire, and drop back into cover. "

This is why I lead with a ppc or las or ac. By the time the ppc is away the atm is locked and fired. And due to the cool down rate of atm3s I often end up firing 2 salvos to one ppc when heat starts creeping in. Hey thx. It's fun to talk to someone. Not just haters. I'm actually gonna take a break from heavies and give my lites and meds a run thru.

Edited by FriedIV, 10 April 2024 - 01:48 PM.

[pattonesque]

FriedIV, on 10 April 2024 - 01:47 PM, said:

"First: ATMs are best if you can poptart with them. They can put out a lot of damage but you have to stare with them too much and the fact that they're not really indirect fire means you have to expose yourself to the enemy. So your best bet is to hover, get a quick lock, fire, and drop back into cover. "

This is why I lead with a ppc or las or ac. By the time the ppc is away the atm is locked and fired. And due to the cool down rate of atm3s I often end up firing 2 salvos to one ppc when heat starts creeping in. Hey thx. It's fun to talk to someone. Not just haters. I'm actually gonna take a break from heavies and give my lites and meds a run thru.

anytime.

the issue with leading with PPCs/lasers/AC is that you're nixing an advantage of non-lockon weapons, which is the ability to twist away damage. So in return for just a slight increase in damage from the ATMs, you're trading survivability.

[Abaddun]

Just be aware that ATMs work best in a sweet spot between 90m and 240 meters where they deal 2.5 damage. They have a minimum arm distance of 60 but because of the ballistic arc a good portion of them will soar over your target if you try and use them at that range. Also bear in mind that ATMs, whilst they have a higher velocity, tighter spread and longer max range then an LRM, deal less damage per ton at ranges above 240, especially at ranges above 500. Also bear in mind you don't need a lock, if you see a big stationary target like an assault, as long as your reticule is over them when you launch most missiles will land if the target does not move.

T4/5 is a bit of a cluster where anything goes, but generally speaking at that level there isn't that much of a power disparity between IS and clan. At higher tiers all the way up to competitive MWO, clans have a distinct edge in the form of the ERLL, nothing else really comes close to it for trading at range but it really comes down to team comp and map awareness, if you plan for both it doesn't matter what you are piloting.

[Djinnhammer]

FriedIV, on 08 March 2024 - 03:35 PM, said:

The maps are made for brawling.

You lost me at that.
Only one map is.
The rest? Every player trying to lolsnipe at max range as much as they can

[pattonesque]

So I would say that while there are maps which are more favorable to certain playstyles, all of them can be played well with a focus on any range

take HPG, for example. people like to complain about it being a sniper's paradise, and it's true that the wall can be a strong position. but, crucially, it's a predictable position, with the snipers only able to operate out of a limited number of cover spots. If you know where they are, you can use the center easily to deny them firing lanes. I play brawler builds all the time on HPG to great success.

The issue comes when people go "oh no there are snipers, time to play mindlessly" and take four or five free trades from said snipers.

[foamyesque]

Hell, the wall isn't even the strongest sniper position IMO, the wing ramps are, especially if you're a ridge-peeker machine. Better lines of retreat; the wall is super vulnerable to having lights just blast up from the enemy spawn and end you.

[Void Angel]

FriedIV, on 10 April 2024 - 01:47 PM, said:

"First: ATMs are best if you can poptart with them. They can put out a lot of damage but you have to stare with them too much and the fact that they're not really indirect fire means you have to expose yourself to the enemy. So your best bet is to hover, get a quick lock, fire, and drop back into cover. "

This is why I lead with a ppc or las or ac. By the time the ppc is away the atm is locked and fired. And due to the cool down rate of atm3s I often end up firing 2 salvos to one ppc when heat starts creeping in. Hey thx. It's fun to talk to someone. Not just haters. I'm actually gonna take a break from heavies and give my lites and meds a run thru.

The drawbacks of mixing projectile weapons and lock-on weapons are that each weapon type's firing characteristics fight the other's. You can't lead a target with a cAC/10 at the same time you gain or maintain a lock for your ATMs. So pairing direct-fire and lock-on weapons can be synergistic, but generally just with lasers. This isn't exactly an argument not to ATMs with direct-fire weapons - it's an argument not to use those weapons with ATMs.

To explain: Using The Awesome MechDB Reference Site, we can see that ATM3s yield 2.0dps for 2.73 dph (damage per heat.) A cAC/10 will do 4.42dps at 5.0dph. This is proper, because that AC takes a lot more space and tonnage. But if you're fighting within the optimum range of that cAC/10, the ATMs are a side-show - and you can't use them both together against anything that moves side-to-side, which happens a lot. Given that you need at least 2 tons of ammo per weapon (often more,) the ATM costs you 3.5 tons and the cAC costs 12. So, doing the math, you could mount about the same dps if you swapped the tonnage and space for the cAC to just run ATMs - in fact, using your total tonnage as a rough maximum, you could achieve 9 dps with 5 tons of ammo by boating ATM6s. Yes, you do have more aim-able damage with the AC, but your guns also fight each other that way. Plus any lock-on weapon makes you a target, so you want to be focusing on trading from cover - preferably with jump jets or a lot of speed (e.g. the Vapor Eagle or Howl respectively.)

Alternatively, you can pair the ATMs with lasers. This will tank your heat efficiency a bit, but a single cERML will deal the same damage as one of your ATM3s within your desired engagement range - and you won't have to lose lock to use them on an evading target. You'll need to devote some tonnage to heat sinks to avoid being unduly heat-capped on your damage, but it's an option you can use, and having guns with no minimum range may server you well in the Tier5/4 free-for-all.

But all that's just analysis for the good of the order, as they say. I understand if you're tired of getting smacked around in Clantech glass cannons - there is nothing wrong in going Inner Sphere, and if you want us to help you tune your builds, just start a topic in the New Player forums! It's really the "help and advice" section, but they wanted new players to funnel there.