48 replies to this topic

[CFC Conky]

LordNothing, on 20 March 2024 - 06:05 AM, said:

ive climbed deep into t2 before but its kind of stressfull and the game ceases to be fun. i dont get to run 75% of my mech inventory and many of my playstyles because they make my psr drop like a rock. of the mechs i do play if i switch a lot, i dont get the advantages of familiarity. you have to drill on a single config until you are on 100% muscle memory, and any change to the program will make your psr drop.

...

I agree. While I find stats/tier to be useful in gauging my progress (or lack of ), it can be frustrating at times.

For instance, if I drop in an ASR-RS with 4xLxPulse lasers I can get consistently good results. Let's say that after twenty drops I have an average match score of 300, then drop in a different mech/class or have a bad match due to the vagaries of MWO and have a bad drop with a match score of 150 (I've seen this happen to top players on YT or Twitch so it's not just a 'me' thing), then another of 175 ms. So, 20x300 +150 +175 is 6325, divided by 22 matches results in a new match score of 287.5, unless stats don't work that way. That's a pretty big drop and to get back to 300 avg ms, I've got to either do really well if the next few matches, or a little better in a lot of them in order to make up the difference.

Now granted, 22 matches is not a representative number for an entire month but it illustrates that avg ms can drop very quickly if one has a string of bad matches. Even if I'm having a good run after 50-60 matches, 5-6 bad drops can have a big effect on my stats which can be hard to make up. By 100 matches my stats won't move very much either way so those early matches have a big influence on my overall numbers for a given month.

Personally, I measure my progress based on avg match score in a given tier and while the trend line in Jarl's shows an upwards slant, you could saw wood with the charts.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 21 March 2024 - 09:31 AM.

[kalashnikity]

DarkBazerker, on 20 March 2024 - 01:37 AM, said:

Would be super happy, if PGI decided to hide player stats, and psr/tier.

Back when the new psr system came out, we were told to not think about it and just play. I did but most find the green arrow to be a goal and it molds them and changes them and how they play/see the game. I find that once a person no longer has this hanging over there head they do better, and have more fun.

I wish they would, so people could save some money on their chiropractor bill, from lifting their nose in the air so much. And quit letting Jarl have stats too.

The swollen heads around here are nauseating, as several (predictable) examples already showed in this thread.

[MarcinT1981]

kalashnikity, on 21 March 2024 - 10:00 AM, said:

I wish they would, so people could save some money on their chiropractor bill, from lifting their nose in the air so much. And quit letting Jarl have stats too.

For all those who cry that they are not on T1 and it should be abolished, I have this to say....
What tier you are on depends only on you. Not from PGI, not from your teammates, not because of a bad map choice. Only from you.
It depends on the ability to build a mech, positioning yourself on the map, awareness of what is happening around you and accuracy.
Listen, I'm 43 years old. I hate online FPS, I consider them games for idiots played by idiots. The only exception is MWO, because you can fiddle with the mecha settings and I like the world of battletech. I don't have great reflexes or super perceptiveness (my eyesight is starting to deteriorate, but it's normal at this age ), and yet I have no problem with having my T1 bar filled and it will never drop as long as I care about it.
Why am I there?
This is not a game that requires reflexes like Fortnite for idiots or other such games, here you just need to have a good build, learn the basic rules of positioning, accuracy and torso twisting.
Anyone can be on T1, really anyone, just learn how to build a mech first (and this is probably the most important thing), and really average skills in positioning and torso twisting will be enough.
But what are we talking about when I see in the match (and I can't play with T4/5 players) that half of them play with builds that are ridiculous. The other half jumps straight up, becoming a great target. Light, which only react when they finish shooting the Alpha at the sidetorso. Even when they stand still, they don't take small steps forward, they just have tunnel vision and get alpha from behind.
And that's what I'm saying and I'm not some mega pro player.

[ambosen]

Meanwhile, in reality the biggest problem with the tier system is that it's a complete joke all around.

You have people who do maybe one match a month displaying tier 1 status, who can't fart their way out of a wet paper bag, and that the question of how they even launch the game client is a very valid one. You'll have people in tier 5 who are excellent at communication, tend to play the vital and often overlooked support mech role, will consistently rank fairly high on the damage if not necessarily kills figure in their matches and usually still have a functional mech at the end of the match, who and will usually end up on winning teams because of it, but who'll inexplicably be deemed worse players by the system, because they're putting in many times the actual play or match time then most of the people with tier one status.

The honest truth is the tier system was fundamentally broken from day one, and many of the changes made to how scoring is calculated and that it's also heavily weighed in favor of barely active players has only made it worse.

[MarcinT1981]

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

The honest truth is the tier system was fundamentally broken from day one, and many of the changes made to how scoring is calculated and that it's also heavily weighed in favor of barely active players has only made it worse.

This is because at Tier 1 we get virgins to use. Of course, bad guys like me only have one, and that's only on Wednesdays. But the best ones, with the highest stats in Jarl's, have entire harems.
This is the only reason why they appear so rarely

[martian]

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

Meanwhile, in reality the biggest problem with the tier system is that it's a complete joke all around.

I have noticed that some players keep saying that. Especially those players who feel that they should belong to T1 instead of T5.

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

You have people who do maybe one match a month displaying tier 1 status, who can't fart their way out of a wet paper bag, and that the question of how they even launch the game client is a very valid one.

Could you show me such player, so I have a better idea what people you are talking about? Thanks.

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

You'll have people in tier 5 who are excellent at communication, tend to play the vital and often overlooked support mech role, will consistently rank fairly high on the damage if not necessarily kills figure in their matches and usually still have a functional mech at the end of the match, who and will usually end up on winning teams because of it, but who'll inexplicably be deemed worse players by the system, because they're putting in many times the actual play or match time then most of the people with tier one status.

So those excellent T5 people play a ton of games per month, rank highly in their games, dish out a lot of damage, usually win their games ... and yet they are staying in T5? This would be pretty strange because my experience shows that such player would rise quickly to higher Tiers (T1 included), getting green arrow game after game.

I think that your theory that T1 players are in Tier 1 because they play one game a month, and that T5 players are in T5 because they play a lot of games, is incorrect.

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

The honest truth is the tier system was fundamentally broken from day one, and many of the changes made to how scoring is calculated and that it's also heavily weighed in favor of barely active players has only made it worse.

1) The PSR version used between 2015 and 2020 was heavily skewed towards the upward movement. Thus, many players moved to T1 because they played a lot of games, not because of their skill.

2) In July 2020 all MWO players - every single one - were moved to mid-Tier 3, so you can disregard anything older. How is it possible that those "barely active players" have moved to Tier 1 instead of staying in Tier 3, if they almost do not play and thus have almost no opportunity to accumulate PSR points?

[MarcinT1981]

But listen. What's the problem with being on Tier 5? When I started playing, I was on this tier for three months (I played mainly LRM) and I had a really good time.
Every player must understand that the Tier will appear on its own, you don't have to do anything, when you are good enough, your psr will start to grow on its own, you won't have to do anything, you won't even have to think...
Now I have to do this, now this, and then this.
It will be the same situation as with my hair, every day I have lush hair, and suddenly I look in the mirror and I'm bald.

[pbiggz]

Exposing PSR confuses people; Is it a reward? Is it a matchmaking metric? If it doesnt go up when people expect it to go up, people act like they've been punished, but its not a reward, its meant to make sure your matches arent miserable, and if its not a reward, why do you see it at all? And if its not a reward, why do you get a gold badge for being in tier 1?

[LordNothing]

im not by any means a pro but i like to know where i stand. leave the stats in, i use them.

also its cute when a t1 says they aren't pro. you are their either because you are some kind of natural overachiever or you worked your *** off to get there. neither of these are indicative of the average player. i believe in meritocracy so credit where credit is due.

theres also the possibility that some of you are really strung out on uppers.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 March 2024 - 04:41 PM.

[MarcinT1981]

pbiggz, on 21 March 2024 - 04:11 PM, said:

And if its not a reward, why do you get a gold badge for being in tier 1?

https://youtu.be/heZ...-n2wyvKCDPH9oZG

Edited by MarcinT1981, 21 March 2024 - 04:48 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 21 March 2024 - 04:32 AM, said:

Hold there. Damage Taken may be displayed in the match results screen, but it's not part of the PSR calculation. IIRC, there's not even a kicker designed for that stat.

PSR +/- is directly tied to relative match score. We still don't know the exact MS formula, just that kills and net damage dealt are major factors. I would be very surprised if damage taken wasn't one of the many secondary factors.

I might be misremembering but I'm pretty sure there was a revamp many moons ago that reduced the impact of damage compared to other factors, though it's obviously still a major one.

Totally anecdotal, but I think that I tend to get better MS (and thus am more likely to get PSR gain) when I have large amounts of damage taken.

Curccu, on 20 March 2024 - 12:32 PM, said:

Or light mech that draws shitloads of fire but evades it. PSR contribution... zero.

Agreed. This, like objective score, being so undervalued is a big reason why lights get ****** over (and thus underplayed).

[Curccu]

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

Meanwhile, in reality the biggest problem with the tier system is that it's a complete joke all around.

Sure it is not perfect...

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

You have people who do maybe one match a month displaying tier 1 status, who can't fart their way out of a wet paper bag, and that the question of how they even launch the game client is a very valid one.

This is total BS and untrue. It doesn't matter that I play ~15 games a month or less average and not even every month, when I do I still perform way better than any true T5 player.

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

You'll have people in tier 5 who are excellent at communication, tend to play the vital and often overlooked support mech role

What is this legendary support mech role? Usually those that play "support" are really called "useless".

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

, will consistently rank fairly high on the damage if not necessarily kills figure in their matches and usually still have a functional mech at the end of the match, who and will usually end up on winning teams because of it, but who'll inexplicably be deemed worse players by the system, because they're putting in many times the actual play or match time then most of the people with tier one status.

If player does good damage, stays alive, keeps winning they will not stay in T5 because they are not T5 players.
It doesn't matter how many hours someone plays if they don't evolve their game play out of T5.

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 01:16 PM, said:

The honest truth is the tier system was fundamentally broken from day one, and many of the changes made to how scoring is calculated and that it's also heavily weighed in favor of barely active players has only made it worse.

How is this system weighted in favor of barely active players?

edit: some typos

Edited by Curccu, 22 March 2024 - 07:11 AM.

[torsie]

Problem with tiers and match score is that huge part of it comes from damage. I think it is difficult to create simple number that say how good player is, but I think making everything depend on damage is also not good idea.

I am super bad player, I shoot more blue people in the back than I shoot red people, but I like putting big guns on all my mechs, so even if I do not help much, miss most of my shots and then explode because I like walking into whole enemy team alone. I still end with green arrow in almost every match.
Now I am back to tier 1 and I still get green arrows, but if I actually have to fight someone I always lose. (ask Bassault )

While there is someone who plays much better, but because they play smaller mech that does not have so many big guns like I do, they will not have such big score from damage and will get red arrow instead.

Yes good players will do more damage than bad players usually, and if you see light mech doing 600+ damage every map, run run run run run run run run.
But I think there is lot of good players who can simply sometimes be unlucky and not get enough time to do enough damage and stay in lower tiers.

I think other things should give more score, and yes playing objectives on maps with objectives should also be rewarded, maybe if everyone learns they can go up in tier by actually defending their bases, they will stop losing to single light mech.

I have few ideas, I do not know if they can work or be added so I will just talk:

Protect Light and Medium. There is bonus score for light and medium mechs when they stay around larger mechs. That is good, but light mechs staying around big mechs can be dangerous, light or medium mechs should also get bonus if they stay together, pack of wild light mechs is super scary.

Assault and heavy mechs do not have this. But that is problem, if assault has to stay around their team instead of hiding in the back, it only helps the game.
Staying together is great and it should be awarded more.

Shooting same target like someone else, it could work like TAG or spotting bonus. Shooting other mechs is good, but if all people try shooting at same target it is super helpful. If people get rewarded for shooting on same target it would help them to play better.

Breaking components and mech parts. This also gives score, but it gives same score if you break weapon or leg or if you break empty hand on mech with all weapons in torso.
It would be good if breaking useful mech parts was giving more score.
Shooting leg on mech is really great, but it is almost always better to just aim on torso, its easier to hit and if you hit its easier to blow up someone.

For objectives it should give score not only for standing there doing nothing, but also for fighting around it. There is defensive kill, but there should also be reward for attacking people, since you can not capture if you take damage.

Edited by torsie, 22 March 2024 - 10:02 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Alexander of Macedon, on 21 March 2024 - 06:37 PM, said:

...

Totally anecdotal, but I think that I tend to get better MS (and thus am more likely to get PSR gain) when I have large amounts of damage taken.



...

I suspect that if you've taken a lot of damage you've also stayed in the match longer, which could help your MS.

Good hunting,
CFC Conkly

[Azab]

Only thing that matters is a green arrow. Your teammates are usually the main problem. If you lose the game, then you must do over 600 damage, at least, so you must do better then the sniper in Direwolf. It is impossible for me to do that in urbie with MGs, so that mech is no longer viable since 2020. Nice memory, but unplayable.

Lets be serious, if you have ratings in the game, everyone's gonna chase them.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly i have never really cared about Tier, i have been around a while and i have seen some really really stupid **** coming from the keyboards of t1s and some actually smart takes from brand new t5s.

as for me yeah i could likely climb to t1 if i wanted to play the game every day and stuck to meta only builds and mechs but to me that isn't fun. i tend not to even pay much attention to the up or down arrows either. i play the builds and mechs i find fun (hell i modified my Rifleman build the day before this post to test out 4 LAC-5s its was sort of fun but ran a little hotter than my slandered 2 AC-10 build. was still kind of fun.) and i am always experimenting with something new. the first and foremost purpose of any video is fun. if you aren't having fun than you need to re-examine your approach.

for me i tend to look at the numbers i pulled on any given match (kills, KMDD, damage totals) and if i feel i did my fair share i am happy with it. oh i always want to do a little better but as long as i reach that personal benchmark i don' t sweat about it. (so for a rough example say 1 kill, a good number of assists, and about 400 damage is an ok performance for a heavy mech). if i don't do well i can usually see where i messed up or if it was just a generally bad match.

so yeah folks are better off just not paying attention to their tiers and such, if you climb you climb if not, so what. Tier is mostly a tool for the MM, one that it often fails to use well.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 22 March 2024 - 10:44 PM.

[martian]

Azab, on 22 March 2024 - 03:16 PM, said:

Only thing that matters is a green arrow. Your teammates are usually the main problem. If you lose the game, then you must do over 600 damage, at least, so you must do better then the sniper in Direwolf. It is impossible for me to do that in urbie with MGs, so that mech is no longer viable since 2020. Nice memory, but unplayable.

That green arrow matters to you because you personally have decided that it matters.

Azab, on 22 March 2024 - 03:16 PM, said:

Lets be serious, if you have ratings in the game, everyone's gonna chase them.

Not everyone. On this forum you can find players who live placidly in their Tiers 3, 4 and 5.

If you do not wish to "chase the ratings", then simply do not chase them. As I mentioned in this post, you can hide your PSR bar easily.

[DarkBazerker]

martian, on 22 March 2024 - 11:26 PM, said:

That green arrow matters to you because you personally have decided that it matters.

Not everyone. On this forum you can find players who live placidly in their Tiers 3, 4 and 5.

If you do not wish to "chase the ratings", then simply do not chase them. As I mentioned in this post, you can hide your PSR bar easily.

It was never put in for you to "chase" in the first place. The whole point of these things is to fill buckets.

[martian]

DarkBazerker, on 23 March 2024 - 03:26 AM, said:

It was never put in for you to "chase" in the first place. The whole point of these things is to fill buckets.

Where have I said that I am chasing it?

If I were chasing it, I would not take 'Mechs such as this Jenner IIC.



I am perfectly comfortable when I feel that I contributed a small part to my team's victory.



That green arrow is just a confirmation that I did not play too badly.



I play to have some fun, so I take any 'Mech that I feel like taking.

Of course, I am working on my own abilities, as you advised me here:

DarkBazerker, on 20 March 2024 - 04:39 AM, said:

You shouldn't be aiming for the green arrow on its own tho, you should be working on your own ablilitys.

Edited by martian, 23 March 2024 - 04:36 AM.

[ambosen]

How many times am I going to have to explain basic math to some of you again?

Averaging is a function of sample sizing. That's how PSR works. They've never pretended otherwise. What this means is that functionally your PSR score is controlled by a combination of how many matches you've played, the few remaining variables they track to determine score, and then derived from an averaging of the two.

What this means is a player with a single game where inexplicably the entire enemy team, or even just a significant percentage of both teams doesn't actually do much can quite easily end up with a high or low match score, and in effect PSR rating in comparison to a user with many more games under their belt, who is going to have a much harder time adjusting their rating. This is one of the reasons why you see a lot of the streamers who genuinely care about this game creating new user names, with stock mechs, and trying to show how quickly or or slowly it can take to change tier status; as far as the direct mechanic utilized applies, newer users are at a marked advantage for obtaining seemingly high PSR ratings. Longer term users are at a marked disadvantage.

Unless there's some sort of magic arbitrary cut off point to when PSR becomes completely fossilized (meaning no data is adjusted by subsequent games) that's set in the first game, whiich many user accounts to this game never get past more then one game played), then as a simple mathematical function, players with more games played literally have a mathematical certaintity of watching their PSR rating decrease after a certain point. Especially when the devs start removing variables that were once considered from the equation, which by the way, they've been pretty open with us have been multiple times.

"Refreshing" by resetting scores every so often actually only makes this issue worse, since now you're just creating even more players at the shallow end of the sampling pool.

But I mean sure, PSR is always a reliable metric of a player's skill, even though the mathematics it's based on have been fundamentally modified several times, and shows a clear statistical bias favoring newer players towards the high end of the chart. Just because people who either don't understand or care how statistics are actually mathematically derived say so. And despite the questionable utility of some tracked metrics or sometimes straight up inability of some quite useful metrics to even *be* accurately tracked to begin with.