83 replies to this topic

[Asylum Choir]

I've just gotten out of a game where an assault player, spent 99% of the match on the outskirts of the game using his ecm and er larges to farm damage.
He took his mech out of the fight, and used us to take his share of the hits. He very nearly lost us the game in the end...it took him ages to decide to come down and lend his guns to the last 2 mechs. I was weaponless at this point...he was willing to lose to not engage.
I'm seeing this behaviour more and more. It does affect the team as it's 12 shooting at 11, SOMEONE is going to have a worse game-even if only a bit because of this selfish behaviour.
Worse thing is, you can't even challenge them over it as it's considered "mean" to do so....you can't report them for being overly passive either.

I'm wondering PGI if you could implement some kind of scoring mechanic that rewards damage taken whilst engaged? I know it'd likely cause gaming the system behaviour, but I'd rather that than what we have now where 2-3 of your team every game, sit right at the back using you and your fun time (to your detriment) to make themselves that bit more successful. They use your hp and armour to gain a better score, whilst your score is less because you have taken your damage AND some of theirs.
In other games I have played like this, you actually get less rewards from kills done at extreme range and earn slightly less because of it. The people taking the most direct risks earn more per action.
The current mechanics actually reward you for being anti team and selfish.

[Sneaky Snek]

Sharing armor is a myth invented by bad players to justify losing.
You should not be rewarded for bringing an Atlas and walking out into a 5 mech firing line and dying with very little impact on the match.

[Asylum Choir]

Sneaky Snek, on 16 April 2024 - 04:55 PM, said:

Sharing armor is a myth invented by bad players to justify losing.
You should not be rewarded for bringing an Atlas and walking out into a 5 mech firing line and dying with very little impact on the match.

That is not what I meant, and you know it. And, such a nasty attitude to boot.

[Floof Yeen]

the game is not "12 shooting at 11." very rarely in a game are all 12 players going to be shooting at the same time, as people are going to be waiting for their heat bar to go down, repositioning, flanking, etc etc.

do you have an end score screen availablefor this match? chances are that person did a lot of damage from their position, which directly contributes to winning the game--even more so if they are shooting from a tactical position which gives them over watch from multiples angles of engagement. that kind of positioning puts pressure on the enemy team and stops them from being overly aggressive.

as much as people like to think. taking damage does not actively contribute to winning the game, but doing damage does, even in non-optimal components. it is very well possible to get several solo kills and win the game, doing a lot of damage while taking minimal damage. the same cannot be said of the reverse, where someone does minimal damage and taking a lot of damage.

suffice to say, this game is not one where each player takes turns doing damage to each other in round robin style system. position better, yourself, to take better advantage of the sniper's sight lines. be more patient. understand where the enemy is at all times and where they are going to be positioning because of the sniper firing line.

it's so, so funny to me that the same people who complain about snipers on their team not contributing tend to be the exact same people who complain about snipers completely dominating on maps like HPG and emerald vale when they're doing the exact same thing from the other side.

[Chrysomelidae]

It really depends on the map and the player but you're underestimating the value of a sniper, even a bad one.

As an example, take HPG Manifold. A single sniper DWF on the wall with some team backup can, if unchallenged, completely zone out the opposing team's players from taking up better positions. If I'm piloting a squishy mech of some sort I have to respect them just for existing. On top of that, they're, in your words, farming damage.

I'm willing to believe that this sniper didn't contribute enough (I've certainly seen some) but damage is damage and dealing damage is what wins games, not taking it.

Edited by Chrysomelidae, 16 April 2024 - 05:04 PM.

[Bassault]

I'm sorry but there's no way in hell you're convincing me to go and die with you when you guys just go and drool all over the floor and NASCAR away from me while I'm fighting... I can't rely on you guys to do anything. I let you guys die in-front of me (you're going to die without doing anything anyway, might as well take advantage of it) then I do all the work and win the match. Be thankful.

[Asylum Choir]

Chrysomelidae, on 16 April 2024 - 05:03 PM, said:

It really depends on the map and the player but you're underestimating the value of a sniper, even a bad one.

As an example, take HPG Manifold. A single sniper DWF on the wall with some team backup can, if unchallenged, completely zone out the opposing team's players from taking up better positions. If I'm piloting a squishy mech of some sort I have to respect them just for existing. On top of that, they're, in your words, farming damage.

I'm willing to believe that this sniper didn't contribute enough (I've certainly seen some) but damage is damage and dealing damage is what wins games, not taking it.

Thank you for being the most polite responder, I do understand what a sniper does;map and zone control. I get they can dictate flow of battle and affect lines etc.
He did indeed do a lot of damage, but what irked me was that he sat there whilst we were dying not shooting.
A good sniper is great, but i hate seeing assaults do it. Not mobile enough usually to change position when needed.

But, peeps seem to be very emotional on defending sniping and very intent on bashing my ability and/or character. Thats not what i asked. Just want a reward system for taking damage.That way when someone does play like that, they are not rewarded more than you. Tis all I want:)

[cougurt]

Asylum Choir, on 16 April 2024 - 05:12 PM, said:

Thank you for being the most polite responder, I do understand what a sniper does;map and zone control. I get they can dictate flow of battle and affect lines etc.
He did indeed do a lot of damage, but what irked me was that he sat there whilst we were dying not shooting.
A good sniper is great, but i hate seeing assaults do it. Not mobile enough usually to change position when needed.

But, peeps seem to be very emotional on defending sniping and very intent on bashing my ability and/or character. Thats not what i asked. Just want a reward system for taking damage.That way when someone does play like that, they are not rewarded more than you. Tis all I want:)

that's partly on you if you choose to fight somewhere where he's unable to support you.

[Floof Yeen]

Asylum Choir, on 16 April 2024 - 05:12 PM, said:

He did indeed do a lot of damage, but what irked me was that he sat there whilst we were dying not shooting.

But, peeps seem to be very emotional on defending sniping and very intent on bashing my ability and/or character. Thats not what i asked. Just want a reward system for taking damage.That way when someone does play like that, they are not rewarded more than you. Tis all I want:)

I would be interested in seeing what actually happened at the end of the match, what the sniper assault was actually doing at that point.

but a system that rewards taking damage could very well end up with even more toxic behaviour emerging, people who end up taking 1000 damage in a dire wolf, doing 200 damage, ending up climbing tiers where they should not be. a damage taken score is too situational and would largely end up inflating the scores of worse players, as better players tend to also be better at taking less damage. people die when they are killed, and being dead does not allow you to help win the game

[Asylum Choir]

Floof Yeen, on 16 April 2024 - 05:19 PM, said:

I would be interested in seeing what actually happened at the end of the match, what the sniper assault was actually doing at that point.

but a system that rewards taking damage could very well end up with even more toxic behaviour emerging, people who end up taking 1000 damage in a dire wolf, doing 200 damage, ending up climbing tiers where they should not be. a damage taken score is too situational and would largely end up inflating the scores of worse players, as better players tend to also be better at taking less damage. people die when they are killed, and being dead does not allow you to help win the game

I was weaponless, so I was goading them into his firing line with their backs turned, or trying to at least. He was trying to not be noticed for first 30 secs, but as my team mate near me died he finally waded in. I tanked and twisted to try to stay alive to buy him time.

[Chrysomelidae]

Asylum Choir, on 16 April 2024 - 05:12 PM, said:

A good sniper is great, but i hate seeing assaults do it. Not mobile enough usually to change position when needed.

cougurt, on 16 April 2024 - 05:15 PM, said:

that's partly on you if you choose to fight somewhere where he's unable to support you.

Yeah, this.

I like to think about situations like this in terms of agency and how much players around me have. If they're a turret in an excellent position with a lot of armor and I have the opportunity to have them cover me then that means I'll just go sit behind them if I can, or at least give them lines as the enemy team pursues me. I might die and I also might not but we sure as hell will perform better together.

Asylum Choir, on 16 April 2024 - 05:12 PM, said:

But, peeps seem to be very emotional on defending sniping and very intent on bashing my ability and/or character. Thats not what i asked. Just want a reward system for taking damage.That way when someone does play like that, they are not rewarded more than you. Tis all I want:)

TBH I've also thought about a damage taken reward, but I can't think of one that couldn't be as easily gamed as AMS used to be.

Edit:

Asylum Choir, on 16 April 2024 - 05:23 PM, said:

I was weaponless, so I was goading them into his firing line with their backs turned, or trying to at least. He was trying to not be noticed for first 30 secs, but as my team mate near me died he finally waded in. I tanked and twisted to try to stay alive to buy him time.

Sounds like you did your best and the sniper didn't capitalize on it as well as they could have. Happens, but you can rest easy knowing you gave it a shot

Edited by Chrysomelidae, 16 April 2024 - 05:27 PM.

[pattonesque]

snipers who play correctly take way more fire than you'd think. they're sharing *attention*, not armor, which is the more important metric.

[Sarrol]

are you upset that a sniper got a higher match score for playing a position and roll whereas you ran into the fray got your guns shot off and ended up with a terrible score? Or do you think that you're play style is more important or worth more reward than his play style?

I'm not sure what you're on about here. He took up a position, he provided fire support and by your own admission did a lot of damage which contributed to the win. What's the problem exactly?

[kalashnikity]

Sarrol, on 16 April 2024 - 06:38 PM, said:

are you upset that a sniper got a higher match score for playing a position and roll whereas you ran into the fray got your guns shot off and ended up with a terrible score? Or do you think that you're play style is more important or worth more reward than his play style?

I'm not sure what you're on about here. He took up a position, he provided fire support and by your own admission did a lot of damage which contributed to the win. What's the problem exactly?

And won the game for everyone on OP's team at the end.

p.s. I'm just here for the dog pile.

Obviously enemy team could see blue lazer guy beaming it up, so... they chose to ignore it at their own peril.

Edited by kalashnikity, 16 April 2024 - 07:14 PM.

[martian]

Asylum Choir, on 16 April 2024 - 03:57 PM, said:

I've just gotten out of a game where an assault player, spent 99% of the match on the outskirts of the game using his ecm and er larges to farm damage.
He took his mech out of the fight, and used us to take his share of the hits. He very nearly lost us the game in the end...it took him ages to decide to come down and lend his guns to the last 2 mechs. I was weaponless at this point...he was willing to lose to not engage.
I'm seeing this behaviour more and more. It does affect the team as it's 12 shooting at 11, SOMEONE is going to have a worse game-even if only a bit because of this selfish behaviour.
Worse thing is, you can't even challenge them over it as it's considered "mean" to do so....you can't report them for being overly passive either.

Such behaviour is perfectly legal. Actually, it always has been legal since the beginning of MechWarrior Online.

Also, I think that this is not going to change - neither the players' behaviour nor PGI's change of the rules.

And when we are talking about it, (Assault) Lurmboats do the same thing in the majority of my games: "an assault player, spent 99% of the match on the outskirts far behind his team of the game using his ecm and er larges Lurms to farm damage."

Asylum Choir, on 16 April 2024 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm wondering PGI if you could implement some kind of scoring mechanic that rewards damage taken whilst engaged? I know it'd likely cause gaming the system behaviour, but I'd rather that than what we have now where 2-3 of your team every game, sit right at the back using you and your fun time (to your detriment) to make themselves that bit more successful. They use your hp and armour to gain a better score, whilst your score is less because you have taken your damage AND some of theirs.
In other games I have played like this, you actually get less rewards from kills done at extreme range and earn slightly less because of it. The people taking the most direct risks earn more per action.
The current mechanics actually reward you for being anti team and selfish.

I have seen thousands of players (even in assault 'Mechs) charging the enemy line or just standing in front of the atacking enemy team or wandering alone and being ganged up by the enemy team. They eat a lot of enemy fire, take a lot of damage while dishing out some. Then they die absolutely uselessly.

I see no reason why reward them for "damage taken whilst engaged".

[Krucilatoz]

I did saw on several game where a group of player take position as sniper,
and if I happen to brought cqc or any short-ranged weaponry then why not "use" them as cover / support ?

Try to lure enemy into their line of sight, ask them to fire into your enemy 50 meter in front of you, always be in their coverage area and be as guard to prevent enemy rush into their nest.
Even nastier, ask your snipers as spotter for your lurm build, it works wonderfully thanks to enemy agitated and rushing into lurmer, thus you sniper have a good feast

oh, also, dont nascar and leaving your sniper team exposed and obliterated

[Mako-1]

I have never heard of a game that rewards you for getting shot.

[MarcinT1981]

Hey hey gentlemen, I think there is a reward for sharing armor when you are close to others. This whole protection proximity thing. I don't know exactly how it works, but I know that when I play as a sniper, I can deal a lot of damage, but I don't get protection proximity or protected assault (although the second one is probably when you hit the opponent when the teammate is close, I don't know), etc.
And the second thing, tell me what makes sense for an assault that has a range of, say, 931 m, to move forward, after all, its dps is not the same as midrange. Precisely because it has range.
I also had matches where I did 1000 damage and the rest of the team got 200-300 and who's fault was it? Does the sniper prohibit others from dealing damage. How many times does it happen that the sniper deals damage and the rest of the team just chases around
You might want assault share armor, but you're thinking about that assault from the back that's waddling around and screaming dont nascar. Of course not, because you're rushing like a sheep to get the red team assault yourself.
For two matches when the sniper achieves a very good result, there is one when the lights catch him quickly and the team will be "over the mountains, behind the forests" (well, but it also depends on what time the game is played)

[Samziel]

pattonesque, on 16 April 2024 - 06:06 PM, said:

snipers who play correctly take way more fire than you'd think. they're sharing *attention*, not armor, which is the more important metric.

I'm likely just bad at positioning but every time I play assault sniper the enemy team decides to make killing me their main objective, even if they lose doing that.

You definitely share attention. You also share a major part of the return fire. Especially when your team decides to take a scenic route and you realize you're the only thing they see!

Edited by Samziel, 17 April 2024 - 02:54 AM.

[pattonesque]

Samziel, on 17 April 2024 - 02:53 AM, said:

I'm likely just bad at positioning but every time I play assault sniper the enemy team decides to make killing me their main objective, even if they lose doing that.

You definitely share attention. You also share a major part of the return fire. Especially when your team decides to take a scenic route and you realize you're the only thing they see!

haha same

there's an interesting counter-example here that happens if you're playing sniper on occasion. Sometimes I'll be up on a wall somewhere in a snipey mech, and every time I peek out approximately half the enemy team is already looking at me, ready to fire.

These are usually losses, because it means that, while I'm doing my part in sharing attention -- even if I made a positioning mistake, I'm usually able to at least stay alive for a good long while -- my team is mostly hiding. Otherwise the enemy team wouldn't be able to do this, because my team would be shooting at them. You'd also think they'd have an advantage considering it's now an 11 v 6 in their favor, but because they're so passive, they get picked off one by one while cowering.

Folks don't notice that, though, because it looks like these dudes just die in the natural course of the game while the sniper is ganked by seven semi-damaged mechs at the end of the match.