105 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 09 May 2024 - 09:17 PM, said:

do you have data on this? jarls doesn't exactly tell me which customers are paying and how much. awhile back russ said something along the lines that the average player is spending about $90, ive spent a lot more than that and im only t3. i cant be the only one.

I was just matching his ridiculousness, I've spent way more than $90 as well and like you I doubt I'm the only one up in tier 1 and even 99+%. That said, most that I know of or played with over the years got into battletech because of Mechwarrior rather than the reverse. Which makes sense when you consider all the other numerous modern video games that are based on TT games, at least the big ones. Baldur's Gate 3, the numerous games for Warhammer, Cyberpunk. Video games typically have a wider audience than TTRPGs and the like which is why I think making TT players your target audience, especially the very vocal and toxic ones that think the game should be a carbon copy of the books and TT rules are the minority at least if you want the game to be successful. Plenty of games have threaded the needle on still being true to the spirit of the universe they are based on while still bending the rules (especially for one like battletech which never "editioned" to fix wonky stats of the past and instead did BV).

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 09 May 2024 - 10:26 PM.

[martian]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 09 May 2024 - 10:25 PM, said:

Video games typically have a wider audience than TTRPGs and the like which is why I think making TT players your target audience, especially the very vocal and toxic ones that think the game should be a carbon copy of the books and TT rules are the minority at least if you want the game to be successful.

It is my impression that the more some MWO players say "tabletop this or that", the less (or possibly never) they have played the actual BattleTech tabletop game because it is often quite obvious that they do not know the basics of the tabletop game.

Also, it is my impression that the more some MWO players say "BattleTech lore this or that", the less actual BattleTech books they have read (often, I am quite certain that that they have actually just skimmed the fan-made Sarna web page).

[RockmachinE]

50-60 is one thing. 80 is another.

I'd love to believe this don't get me wrong. I just don't without proof.

Edited by RockmachinE, 09 May 2024 - 11:36 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

"anyone hiding is doing it wrong"

Is denying enemies LoS on your mech hiding? It sure sounds like hiding. On HPG the correct response to wallsnipers for players that can not reasonably engage them is to deny them sightlines via center structures. You know. Hiding. How does a light pick around to an unguarded flank? Using terrain to hide profile, moving from cover to cover along routes that minimize likelihood of being spotted.

Hiding.

What ******* good does it do for a brawler to expose themselves to enemies they can not damage? Why would a brawler be expected to give enemies happy birthdays? Because "hiding is doing it wrong"? If I'm in a medium with optimal of 350 or less you bet your *** I'm going to hide near the nearest fat ****** and he can bloody well thank me when I ******* shoot at the things that sneak up near him until it's safe to start getting aggressive. Maybe he'd prefer I ******* YOLO Nascar off and ditch him, no?

Edited by Mechwarrior2342356, 10 May 2024 - 02:15 AM.

[MrMadguy]

And stop nerfing LRMs, cuz LRMs are only weapon, that can counter snipers at long range and hit them even when they're peek-poking. Radar derp cheat should be completely removed from game. I don't even notice any 20% nerf to it. Lock is still dropped instantly in all cases.

Edited by MrMadguy, 10 May 2024 - 02:20 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

MrMadguy, on 10 May 2024 - 02:17 AM, said:

And stop nerfing LRMs, cuz LRMs are only weapon, that can counter snipers at long range and hit them even when they're peek-poking. Radar derp cheat should be completely removed from game. I don't even notice any 20% nerf to it. Lock is still dropped instantly in all cases.

Don't piggyback onto me with this. LRMs are and pretty much always will be a terrible sniper counter unless the sniper is very very stupid. Nuking derp won't help you. He will plaster you from long range optimal, slip into cover, repeat and your LRMs will take so long to reach his location he will do this comfortably derp or no. If it's an ECM Dire or NTG you'll just get clowned on even harder.

Edited by Mechwarrior2342356, 10 May 2024 - 03:56 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 03:39 AM, said:

Don't piggyback onto me with this. LRMs are and pretty much always will be a terrible sniper counter unless the sniper is very very stupid. Nuking derp won't help you. He will plaster you from long range optimal, slip into cover, repeat and your LRMs will take so long to reach his location he will do this comfortably derp or no. If it's an ECM Dire or NTG you'll just get clowned on even harder.

Well, at least LRMs disturb them. They need to think about cover instead of just standing there and pew-pewing. But LRMs are also effective against guys like poptarts, who think that their fly time isn't enough to aim at them.

Overall simple rule should be applied. Bare LRMs are balanced against bare enemy 'Mech. They can be countered by cover, AMS and ECM. These things can be counter-countered by BAP, TAG and Narc. That's it. Radar derp is exceeding. It can't be countered by anything. That's why it's cheat.

And about counters like equipping AMS. Firepower vs surviveability - should be meaningful choice, not nobrainer. If guys refuse to equip AMS and prefer firepower instead, so they're constantly LRM-rained - then it should be THEIR problem. If Lights play rambo-style instead of covering their teammates by their ECM - it's THEIR problem. Not mine. Why should I be nerfed, cuz other players prefer nobrain gameplay?

[KursedVixen]

Moadebe, on 09 May 2024 - 04:18 AM, said:

As far as the AMS giving something for taking it.

Been pushing for it for awhile. General consensus is yes it SHOULD give SOMETHING for taking it. Yes AMS effectively gives armor by removing missiles from the playing field (which is potential damage.)

Cauldron has stated that they have submitted it multiple times and its on PGI to do. (Just a reminder that the cauldron might submit the ideas driving balance. PGI is still the deciding factor, and has final say.) It might actually take a small bit of coding in order to get a c-bill reward for AMS and with MW5: Clans in the backstretch thats REALLY not gonna happen for MWO.

Ultimately its on PGI to allow AMS to give rewards.

Everyone agrees that it should at least give some C-Bills. XP is a little slippery (but honestly...a way to level up mechs and to incentivize newer players to at least bring one would help with missile spam at lower tiers. C-Bills will accomplish this too though and so XP sits behind C-Bills as a reward.) It should never give match score though since that affects PSR and well.....no.

Edit: Honestly. Take the AMS anyway. No need to omit it just because it doesn't give anything you can really see. Ive had close matches (11-12) where I have shot down over 1k missiles before. Id imagine that damage removed from the field played a key factor in those kinds of wins. Rare as they are.

i'm pretty sure in the past you did get a c-bill reward for missile shot down, what people mostly didn't like is that you could get to tier 1 using ams alone..... that i agree should not be but you should get some benifit from using it.

VaelophisNyx, on 08 May 2024 - 05:38 PM, said:

Once again bringing it up that maybe, potentially, supporting the non-sniper builds is a good idea. Maps that aren't 80% open (Frozen City is the poster-child of this problem), maybe buff something that isn't capable of hitting from over a kilometer away for once, raise TTK as it keeps getting slashed shorter and shorter making anything that isn't poking from >1.5Km non-viable. Just...something has to give here folks. Feels like I'm playing modern CoD more than MW half the time.

You can't keep strangling anything that isn't sitting in the back and barely moving. Its unfun gameplay, its restrictive as hell to build around, and its boring to watch.

This isn't even to say anything about the rewards issue punishing anything that isn't pure damage, the forced heatsink punishment for daring to play light mechs, missiles in general receiving ceaseless nerfs; any number of other small compounding problems with the game.

Really because i was playing a game on emerald vale where we had like 4 snipers on the ridge, they were the last ones to die but by taking their guns off the field and sniping they lost the game for their team.

[Gasboy]

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

"anyone hiding is doing it wrong"

Is denying enemies LoS on your mech hiding? It sure sounds like hiding. On HPG the correct response to wallsnipers for players that can not reasonably engage them is to deny them sightlines via center structures. You know. Hiding. How does a light pick around to an unguarded flank? Using terrain to hide profile, moving from cover to cover along routes that minimize likelihood of being spotted.

Hiding.

What ******* good does it do for a brawler to expose themselves to enemies they can not damage? Why would a brawler be expected to give enemies happy birthdays? Because "hiding is doing it wrong"? If I'm in a medium with optimal of 350 or less you bet your *** I'm going to hide near the nearest fat ****** and he can bloody well thank me when I ******* shoot at the things that sneak up near him until it's safe to start getting aggressive. Maybe he'd prefer I ******* YOLO Nascar off and ditch him, no?

There's a difference between hiding and denying the red team LoS. You can, with care, approach the red team and remain out of sight til 'shots fired'. That's not hiding.

You can also find a spot out of sight and remain there, out of the fight, til everyone's banged up. That's hiding.

I do plenty of brawling, and I do the former, not the latter.

[martian]

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

"anyone hiding is doing it wrong"

Is denying enemies LoS on your mech hiding? It sure sounds like hiding. On HPG the correct response to wallsnipers for players that can not reasonably engage them is to deny them sightlines via center structures. You know. Hiding. How does a light pick around to an unguarded flank? Using terrain to hide profile, moving from cover to cover along routes that minimize likelihood of being spotted.

Hiding.

No.

Using - or at least trying to use - the terrain and various artificial obstacles to approach a sniper or a Lurmer is not hiding, because you are just closing to the brawling range with your intent being to attack enemy 'Mech without eating too much damage. This is not hiding.

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

What ******* good does it do for a brawler to expose themselves to enemies they can not damage? Why would a brawler be expected to give enemies happy birthdays? Because "hiding is doing it wrong"?

Doing at least something can give you the green arrow. Staying put and waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ... for some miraculous opportunity that might possibly never come will almost certainly give you the red arrow.

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

If I'm in a medium with optimal of 350 or less you bet your *** I'm going to hide near the nearest fat ****** and he can bloody well thank me when I ******* shoot at the things that sneak up near him until it's safe to start getting aggressive.

Standing still behind rocks or buildings, praying that somebody else defeats the enemy team ... this is hiding.

If you are sitting in "in a medium with optimal of 350 or less", use the terrain to close to the enemy sniper or Lurmer. Move close enough to actually use your 'Mech's firepower.

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

If I'm in a medium with optimal of 350 or less you bet your *** I'm going to hide near the nearest fat ****** and he can bloody well thank me when I ******* shoot at the things that sneak up near him until it's safe to start getting aggressive.

If enemy snipers are the problem, then it is quite possible that they will snipe you to death, while you are waiting for your opportunity.

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

Maybe he'd prefer I ******* YOLO Nascar off and ditch him, no?

Perhaps he would.

Maybe he would be thankful that you in your medium 'Mech destroyed or distracted enemy sniper or Lurmer that has pinned your friendly assault lancemate in place.

But of course, it is your choice how you prefer to play the game.

Play as you like, use 'Mechs and builds that you like. Let PSR do its job. Eventually, PSR will move you to the most appropriate Tier, i.e. Tier where you will face other players of your skill level, running similar type of builds and using tactics.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

martian, on 09 May 2024 - 11:12 PM, said:

It is my impression that the more some MWO players say "tabletop this or that", the less (or possibly never) they have played the actual BattleTech tabletop game because it is often quite obvious that they do not know the basics of the tabletop game.

Also, it is my impression that the more some MWO players say "BattleTech lore this or that", the less actual BattleTech books they have read (often, I am quite certain that that they have actually just skimmed the fan-made Sarna web page).

I don't know about that, I think a lot of them are typically succession war era fanbois that have hated basically every future era since the invasion because that particular era had a very different feel compared to clan invasion and beyond. Succession war era feels very fallout-y with mechs versus the more modern war game feel of the newer eras.

[BlueDevilspawn]

MrMadguy, on 10 May 2024 - 04:08 AM, said:

Well, at least LRMs disturb them. They need to think about cover instead of just standing there and pew-pewing. But LRMs are also effective against guys like poptarts, who think that their fly time isn't enough to aim at them.

Overall simple rule should be applied. Bare LRMs are balanced against bare enemy 'Mech. They can be countered by cover, AMS and ECM. These things can be counter-countered by BAP, TAG and Narc. That's it. Radar derp is exceeding. It can't be countered by anything. That's why it's cheat.

And about counters like equipping AMS. Firepower vs surviveability - should be meaningful choice, not nobrainer. If guys refuse to equip AMS and prefer firepower instead, so they're constantly LRM-rained - then it should be THEIR problem. If Lights play rambo-style instead of covering their teammates by their ECM - it's THEIR problem. Not mine. Why should I be nerfed, cuz other players prefer nobrain gameplay?

No, I'm with mechwarrior [numbers] on this. LRMs are a terrible counter to snipers. This answer is the same mentality as shooting medium lasers at ERLL range and saying "I'm suppressing". The best counter to snipers is another sniper (who has to shoot btw) or a high dps fast mech that knows how to correctly path/push the sniper.

LRMs have not be nerfed - they have actually been successively buffed for multiple patches straight because they or the ecosystem they operate in have been adjusted /nerfed. You might think they've been nerfed because you've been trying to counter snipers and as mentioned, that's a bad idea. Since late last year and in a rough sequence of patches, we're seen -

• There was an initial velo change, but that was a balance decision in exchange for more consistency in use specifically the skill tree radar dep node decrease
  
• While arc was lowered, spaghetti code necessitated a reversion and so they retain their full indirect fire capability
  
• ECM bubble size reduced (lessening team coverage)
  
• ECM lock-time multiplier reduced (from 4x to 2x)

Anyone complaining about LRM nerfs isn't properly tracking the sequential steps taken and is merely repeating an old, tired line. The steps are sequential because the fewer variables changed each patch makes the impact easier to assess and adjust for.

[martian]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 May 2024 - 07:09 AM, said:

I don't know about that, I think a lot of them are typically succession war era fanbois that have hated basically every future era since the invasion because that particular era had a very different feel compared to clan invasion and beyond. Succession war era feels very fallout-y with mechs versus the more modern war game feel of the newer eras.

Yeah, you are right!

They hate when you tell them: "Sorry, boy, but that train departed more than thirty years ago. Nobody is going to rework BattleTech because of you."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

To be fair, I think Dark Age was an attempt at recovering that feel, but the fact it was released with the clix system nonsense probably killed any potential it had at that.

[martian]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 May 2024 - 08:22 AM, said:

To be fair, I think Dark Age was an attempt at recovering that feel, but the fact it was released with the clix system nonsense probably killed any potential it had at that.

Yes, the early Dark Age was like that. But some players - who used 'Mechs such as Argus, Thanatos, Osiris, Uziel, Hellspawn, etc. in their forces - were not pleased when being shown that now their games will revolve around one old Centurion, three armed AgroMechs and some peasant infantry with a pair of technicals.

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 10 May 2024 - 04:08 AM, said:

Well, at least LRMs disturb them. They need to think about cover instead of just standing there and pew-pewing. But LRMs are also effective against guys like poptarts, who think that their fly time isn't enough to aim at them.

they're thinking about cover anyway, and your typical sniper can emerge, fire, and back into cover before an LRM boat can lock, fire, and land. A far better way to disturb them would be firing at them with a weapon that actually can damage them, or running up on them with a light or medium brawler

[An6ryMan69]

LordNothing, on 09 May 2024 - 09:17 PM, said:

do you have data on this? jarls doesn't exactly tell me which customers are paying and how much. awhile back russ said something along the lines that the average player is spending about $90, ive spent a lot more than that and im only t3. i cant be the only one.

LOL!

I'm probably over $500 lifetime and I bounce around from T4-T3.

So, if anyone is honestly thinking pulling out the credit card is giving someone a real advantage...it's just not.

It's mostly nostalgic old mech daddies with money to burn buying stuff as far as I can tell, which is fine, but that's not actually holding back others.

[Sneaky Snek]

MrMadguy, on 10 May 2024 - 04:08 AM, said:

Well, at least LRMs disturb them. They need to think about cover instead of just standing there and pew-pewing. But LRMs are also effective against guys like poptarts, who think that their fly time isn't enough to aim at them.

Overall simple rule should be applied. Bare LRMs are balanced against bare enemy 'Mech. They can be countered by cover, AMS and ECM. These things can be counter-countered by BAP, TAG and Narc. That's it. Radar derp is exceeding. It can't be countered by anything. That's why it's cheat.

And about counters like equipping AMS. Firepower vs surviveability - should be meaningful choice, not nobrainer. If guys refuse to equip AMS and prefer firepower instead, so they're constantly LRM-rained - then it should be THEIR problem. If Lights play rambo-style instead of covering their teammates by their ECM - it's THEIR problem. Not mine. Why should I be nerfed, cuz other players prefer nobrain gameplay?

LRMS do not counter snipers OR poptarters lol.
Snipers get countered by other snipers or poptarters that don't fly into the stratosphere to take the shot.
Back before cauldron when LRMs were overpowered, pop tarters were the counter to them lol.

Why should some no skill "look in general direction of enemy" weapon be better that weapons that need to actually be aimed?

[Bassault]

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

"anyone hiding is doing it wrong"

Is denying enemies LoS on your mech hiding? It sure sounds like hiding. On HPG the correct response to wallsnipers for players that can not reasonably engage them is to deny them sightlines via center structures. You know. Hiding. How does a light pick around to an unguarded flank? Using terrain to hide profile, moving from cover to cover along routes that minimize likelihood of being spotted.

Hiding.

What ******* good does it do for a brawler to expose themselves to enemies they can not damage? Why would a brawler be expected to give enemies happy birthdays? Because "hiding is doing it wrong"? If I'm in a medium with optimal of 350 or less you bet your *** I'm going to hide near the nearest fat ****** and he can bloody well thank me when I ******* shoot at the things that sneak up near him until it's safe to start getting aggressive. Maybe he'd prefer I ******* YOLO Nascar off and ditch him, no?

You have so much speed and agility yet you choose to hide... Why? Learn the map and approach enemies. It doesn't have to be the sniper, attack someone else if you have to.

[pattonesque]

Mechwarrior2342356, on 10 May 2024 - 02:14 AM, said:

"anyone hiding is doing it wrong"

Is denying enemies LoS on your mech hiding? It sure sounds like hiding. On HPG the correct response to wallsnipers for players that can not reasonably engage them is to deny them sightlines via center structures. You know. Hiding. How does a light pick around to an unguarded flank? Using terrain to hide profile, moving from cover to cover along routes that minimize likelihood of being spotted.

Hiding.

What ******* good does it do for a brawler to expose themselves to enemies they can not damage? Why would a brawler be expected to give enemies happy birthdays? Because "hiding is doing it wrong"? If I'm in a medium with optimal of 350 or less you bet your *** I'm going to hide near the nearest fat ****** and he can bloody well thank me when I ******* shoot at the things that sneak up near him until it's safe to start getting aggressive. Maybe he'd prefer I ******* YOLO Nascar off and ditch him, no?

denying LOS is great and more people should do it. but also a lot of players in this game maneuver to *hide* rather than maneuver to safely fire. it's a noticeable difference.