86 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 05 June 2024 - 07:16 AM, said:

The low weight of LACs/PACs making them more boatable is already compensated for by their inferior DPS and increased slot cost. Their increased slot cost alone will crowd out Double Heat Sinks in an assault.


+0.5 tons is not a significant percentage higher than 4.5 tons. That can easily be found by removing armor/jump jets/decreasing engine size/etc and you get a far superior performing weapon for the trade-off.

on an omnimech? most clan mechs are omnis which means your stuck with the engine you have the armor type and structure type as well as jump jets and usually some heat sinks... reducing armor generally makes a mech less survivalbe and opens your components to damage so it's not a viable thing for everyone.

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 11:31 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 05 June 2024 - 07:35 AM, said:

They do actually compete, the HLL is just worse off and really only serves as a stand-in laser for mechs that have little tonnage left over and have already hit the HSL for cERML. The worst competition has traditionally been on the IS side of large lasers with LL, LPL, and now the BLC.

there's a problem though Heavy large laser is in the same ghost heat family as
C-er large, Beam laser and C-large pulse

also the heavy large laser is 4 slots compared to the Clarge pulse 2 or CEr large 1 slot.

c-large pulse weights in at 6 tons the same as an ERPPC same slots too but colder, less range and actually more damage because i've never seen splash do anything.

if you have 4 tons your better off with an ER large.

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 12:27 PM.

[KursedVixen]

the biggest problem with the PACs is they were designed for protomechs robotic units inbetween batlle armor and mechs of 2-15 tons protmechs as far as i know deal with heat differently, While i applaud PGi's attempt to add new weapons to both sides this time fairly evenly this time around when adding new weapons i think the PAC2 and 8 might need some more fine tuning the 4 looks to be very good with this upcoming patch

I think the pac 2 should be a ligher shorter ranged slighlty slower firing ac2 so the only change i think i could say for it now is to increas it's range to maybe 700-720

As for the Pac4 i think it's going to be in a good place

I think the pac 8 should not be burst fire if these weapons are for lights and mediums, there is no reason for the weapon to have a burst fire of 2 shells, especially since in lights and fast mediums like the shadow cat and stormcrow you want to be moving as much as possilbe. range increased to 400-440? heat reduced to 2.5

[MechMaster059]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 11:30 AM, said:

on an omnimech? ...

Vapor Eagle Rival

I've got builds with every single weapon being discussed in this thread on it. I'm having a hard time finding "the build" because the mech is so customizable:

Ballistic combos: 2xUAC2 / 2xPAC4 / PAC8 + 2xAPG / 3LMG / UAC5 + 2xAPG / HAG30
Missile slot: ATM6-12 / SRM6a
Energy: 2xBL / LPL + LTAG / HLL + LTAG / 2xPC
Jump Jets: 3-6
Engine: 265-295
Leg + Arm Armor: 57 + 57 / 51 + 53

I can easily find an additional ½-1 ton on this mech if I have to.

Edited by MechMaster059, 05 June 2024 - 03:14 PM.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 05 June 2024 - 03:14 PM, said:

Vapor Eagle Rival

I've got builds with every single weapon being discussed in this thread on it. I'm having a hard time finding "the build" because the mech is so customizable:

Ballistic combos: 2xUAC2 / 2xPAC4 / PAC8 + 2xAPG / 3LMG / UAC5 + 2xAPG / HAG30
Missile slot: ATM6-12 / SRM6a
Energy: 2xBL / LPL + LTAG / HLL + LTAG / 2xPC
Jump Jets: 3-6
Engine: 265-295
Leg + Arm Armor: 57 + 57 / 51 + 53

I can easily find an additional ½-1 ton on this mech if I have to.

Not an omni.

also that's only one chassis and a single variant.

and a hero not everyone has money to waste on MC

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 03:25 PM.

[MechMaster059]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 03:23 PM, said:

Not an omni.

also that's only one chassis and a single variant.

and a hero not everyone has money to waste on MC

I know it's not an Omnimech. The point is don't act like finding a measly ½ ton to swap a C-UAC2 in place of a PAC4 is a difficult feat to accomplish or that being able to do so is limited to an exclusive subset of Clan mechs.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 05 June 2024 - 03:32 PM, said:

I know it's not an Omnimech. The point is don't act like finding a measly ½ ton to swap a C-UAC2 in place of a PAC4 is a difficult feat to accomplish or that being able to do so is limited to an exclusive subset of Clan mechs.

You listed one example..... which requires real money..... and most of what you suggested can only be done on a battlemech not an omin and as stated before armor is a premium on light mechs.

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 03:54 PM.

[Void Angel]

I haven't bought MC in years - I have over 38,000, and most of that is from events. Even then, the amount of money needed to buy a hero 'mech on sale with MC is trivial compared to the cost of maintaining a gaming computer with internet.

[MechMaster059]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 03:52 PM, said:

...and most of what you suggested can only be done on a battlemech not an omin ...

Wrong. You can shrink other weapons if necessary. A UAC2 is so far superior to a PAC4 that the net result would still be better. There are a large number of non-Omnimechs on the Clan side anyway so it seems strange to just ignore them for this discussion.

Why are you going around in circles with me on this? Acting like going from 4.5 tons --> 5 tons and SAVING a slot is hard to do is pretty silly.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 05 June 2024 - 04:05 PM, said:

Wrong. You can shrink other weapons if necessary. A UAC2 is so far superior to a PAC4 that the net result would still be better. There are a large number of non-Omnimechs on the Clan side anyway so it seems strange to just ignore them for this discussion.

Why are you going around in circles with me on this? Acting like going from 4.5 tons --> 5 tons and SAVING a slot is hard to do is pretty silly.

because not everyone is a tier 1-2 player who knows how much armor they can reliably carry, how much ammo they need,along with what all the other components do.

Void Angel, on 05 June 2024 - 03:56 PM, said:

I haven't bought MC in years - I have over 38,000, and most of that is from events. Even then, the amount of money needed to buy a hero 'mech on sale with MC is trivial compared to the cost of maintaining a gaming computer with internet.

new player comes in with 0 mc is told to buy hero mech and cannot we can't just assume EVERYONE has been playing this game for any amount of time.

[MechMaster059]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 04:18 PM, said:

because not everyone is a tier 1-2 player who knows how much armor they can reliably carry, how much ammo they need,along with what all the other components do.
...

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying the PAC4 should suck and not have its heat reduced in line with TT because new players will be too ignorant to figure out it's a bad weapon so no need to improve it?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 02:45 PM, said:

I think the pac 2 should be a ligher shorter ranged slighlty slower firing ac2 so the only change i think i could say for it now is to increas it's range to maybe 700-720

So you want the weapon to be competition for the AC5 at best and awful at worst?

MechMaster059, on 05 June 2024 - 03:14 PM, said:

Vapor Eagle Rival

I've got builds with every single weapon being discussed in this thread on it. I'm having a hard time finding "the build" because the mech is so customizable:

Ballistic combos: 2xUAC2 / 2xPAC4 / PAC8 + 2xAPG / 3LMG / UAC5 + 2xAPG / HAG30
Missile slot: ATM6-12 / SRM6a
Energy: 2xBL / LPL + LTAG / HLL + LTAG / 2xPC
Jump Jets: 3-6
Engine: 265-295
Leg + Arm Armor: 57 + 57 / 51 + 53

I can easily find an additional ½-1 ton on this mech if I have to.

I mean half a ton is one thing, but no one is running just one PAC4, so it typically adds up especially on mediums where tonnage is still at a premium. I'm not saying that PAC4s are good, but lets not underestimate how important tonnage can be for lights/mediums.

Regardless, like I said when they announced LACs/PACs, they should maintain similar DPS but be shorter ranged and have much lower DPH than their standard counterparts (with potentially low HSLs no different than LPPCs).

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 05 June 2024 - 05:16 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 05 June 2024 - 05:14 PM, said:

So you want the weapon to be competition for the AC5 at best and awful at worst?

if you put it exactly that way, yes.

(clans don't get ac5's)

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 05:30 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Seems like P/LAC2s are getting some love. I honestly struggle to see much point with those weapons -- they are just more front-loaded but shorter plinkers, on a range you might as well just invest more ton for a stronger burst.

P/LAC2s might have been undertuned due to weight considerations, but that just means they were first implemented as light-weight alternatives, than a weapon class with a point of their own.

The PAC2 at 0.8s CD, and 600m, seems to me a good alternative, not eclipsing the CAC2. LAC2 would probably need simmlar buff to CD tho.

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 02:45 PM, said:

I think the pac 8 should not be burst fire if these weapons are for lights and mediums, there is no reason for the weapon to have a burst fire of 2 shells, especially since in lights and fast mediums like the shadow cat and stormcrow you want to be moving as much as possilbe. range increased to 400-440? heat reduced to 2.5

Opening a can of worms there bucko. PACs are light-weight and easily spammable by nature. And while, yes a boon for light and meds, it's even more PPFLD on an assault -- and there's already so much hardpoint inflation lately.

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 05:26 PM, said:

if you put it exactly that way, yes.

(clans don't get ac5's)

Except they do, CAC5 are already single slugs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 June 2024 - 07:22 PM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 04:18 PM, said:

new player comes in with 0 mc is told to buy hero mech and cannot we can't just assume EVERYONE has been playing this game for any amount of time.

You also can't assume that NO ONE has been playing this game for any amount of time, either. Hero 'mechs aren't hard to come by, and moving the goalposts when you claimed that buying a Hero "requires real money" isn't going to work on me - particularly when you were the one that example was given to. Leave the goalposts alone and just take the correction and move on.

Or, you know... keep making up increasingly outrageous claims. Stumbles is very surprised that his cAC/5s don't exist.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 June 2024 - 09:45 PM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 05:26 PM, said:

if you put it exactly that way, yes.

(clans don't get ac5's)

This is Clan AC-5:



It is a direct fire, low heat ballistic weapon that fires single projectile.

It has been in the game for the last 10 years.

[martian]

Nine-Ball, on 05 June 2024 - 10:23 PM, said:

Pedant here: KursedVixen is correct, Clans don't get the AC5, they get the C/AC5!

*cough*

Just thought I'd waste a post

You are absolutely and totally right!

Poor poor Clans! They do not even give them AC-5!

[KursedVixen]

Nine-Ball, on 05 June 2024 - 10:23 PM, said:

Pedant here: KursedVixen is correct, Clans don't get the AC5, they get the C/AC5!

*cough*

Just thought I'd waste a post

And it's not really an AC/5 either it's more of a solid slug LBX5

[Gasboy]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 11:46 PM, said:

And it's not really an AC/5 either it's more of a solid slug LBX5

In before 'it was a joke briv'.

[Bud Crue]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 05 June 2024 - 05:14 PM, said:

So you want the weapon to be competition for the AC5 at best and awful at worst?

No care or concern over the debate above, but one thing it did make me wonder about: does anyone have any builds where they run C-AC5s over UACs? The comment above just made me think, who cares if there is a weapon that competes with the C-AC5, as no one uses them anyway?

Hell, I've been trying to make a PAC-4 build (at least 3 and other weapons; preferably 2-3 PCs) on anything, but even with its weight benefits everything I've tried feels anemic; AC5s are even worse given the weight.