272 replies to this topic

[Blue Vermin]

BlueDevilspawn, on 17 August 2024 - 03:56 PM, said:

Someone pointed out that losing a player to a DC or AFK deprives you of a larger percentage of the team.

I'll take that thought further. It's already been pointed out that 8v8 gives each person more agency in the match. This means that it will expose one's lack of contributions far more starkly than in a 12v12. Your weakness hit that much harder. Sniper is less of a meta given the pace and lack of armor to second-line behind, and so once that is out of the picture, then what is left to blame one's lack of performance on?

...

Yes, so please rub our faces in it for four days Mr. Top 12 qualifier...

Edited by Blue Vermin, 17 August 2024 - 04:52 PM.

[Adalonzo]

Tiy0s, on 17 August 2024 - 12:26 PM, said:

We’ll have to see. The event queue system has its drawbacks as well. It’s interesting because while this forum thread is mostly against 8v8, but almost every community discord server I’m in is generally for 8v8. I’d say there are probably more people on all of those servers than we see active on the forums. I don’t think I’ve seen feedback this ranged in a long time.

I don’t have sole control over the game, I had to run this event through the team like I do everything else I do for MWO. Since I’m primarily an artist and mech designer, I don’t even have the keys to start this event. Someone else had to do it for me

I play lots of MWO, probably too much for my own good lol. I test things in quick play a lot, mostly new content/mechs or stuff we’re currently looking at for balance patches. I’m also a very active competitive player, used to play for ABIN and now I’m on KDCM. My activity has gone down a bit recently due to also working on Clans as well and that taking up a lot of my time, but I always make sure to make room for MWO. No matter how much is on my plate, I will always make time for MWO to keep trying to enrich it for its players.

Keep up the great work Tiyos. 8v8 is definitely the way

[VaelophisNyx]

Adalonzo, on 17 August 2024 - 04:53 PM, said:

Keep up the great work Tiyos. 8v8 is definitely the way

Correct it is the way to kill off the QP player population

Quicksilver Aberration, on 17 August 2024 - 04:45 PM, said:

Their burst duration is no different than Clan ACs, and if they are pinpoint why do so many people miss with them and why wouldn't we see them more in upper tiers? Unless....they aren't as good as you think against people that aren't just standing still out in the open.

"Upper tiers" primarily stick to laser vomit from what I've been told. I'm not sure personally, I enjoy fun and experimentation, and not sweating to death while playing, a mindset incompatible with ""optimum"" play. So its not surprising that something that can miss at all isn't present there.

At lower tiers you see a lot of people that can miss with lasers. Badly. Hardly worth blaming that on the weapon
HAGs feature Gauss range, with Gauss velocity, on a short burst with insane damage potential per burst, with spread that doesn't matter until nearly max range. They aren't even conceptually balanced, possibly even less so than when they were added to TT, where you have 20/30/40 separate hits to roll for instead of a handful at worst (and with no need to roll dice no less).
I say this as someone who doesn't just "Stand still in the open". HAGs aren't ok. They should never have been given buffs to spread at all.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

VaelophisNyx, on 17 August 2024 - 04:56 PM, said:

At lower tiers you see a lot of people that can miss with lasers. Badly. Hardly worth blaming that on the weapon
HAGs feature Gauss range, with Gauss velocity, on a short burst with insane damage potential per burst, with spread that doesn't matter until nearly max range.

Somehow you are implying projectiles are somehow easier to use than a hitscan weapon (when both have a duration) and it is mindboggling.

VaelophisNyx, on 17 August 2024 - 04:56 PM, said:

They aren't even conceptually balanced, possibly even less so than when they were added to TT, where you have 20/30/40 separate hits to roll for instead of a handful at worst (and with no need to roll dice no less).

Also, in TT they roll on cluster hits table not unlike LRMs, and are grouped damage wise just like LRMs. There is only one hit roll and one cluster hit roll with them. Not sure what you are talking about.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 17 August 2024 - 05:22 PM.

[Adalonzo]

VaelophisNyx, on 17 August 2024 - 04:56 PM, said:

Correct it is the way to kill off the QP player population



"Upper tiers" primarily stick to laser vomit from what I've been told. I'm not sure personally, I enjoy fun and experimentation, and not sweating to death while playing, a mindset incompatible with ""optimum"" play. So its not surprising that something that can miss at all isn't present there.

At lower tiers you see a lot of people that can miss with lasers. Badly. Hardly worth blaming that on the weapon
HAGs feature Gauss range, with Gauss velocity, on a short burst with insane damage potential per burst, with spread that doesn't matter until nearly max range. They aren't even conceptually balanced, possibly even less so than when they were added to TT, where you have 20/30/40 separate hits to roll for instead of a handful at worst (and with no need to roll dice no less).
I say this as someone who doesn't just "Stand still in the open". HAGs aren't ok. They should never have been given buffs to spread at all.

Tempted to be snarky, but I won't be. I will ask however how you're complaining about HAGs when you're in a tier people are missing lasers some how. If they can't aim hitscan weapons effectively, how are they landing enough of a HAG burst to be an issue to you?

[VaelophisNyx]

Adalonzo, on 17 August 2024 - 05:06 PM, said:

Tempted to be snarky, but I won't be. I will ask however how you're complaining about HAGs when you're in a tier people are missing lasers some how. If they can't aim hitscan weapons effectively, how are they landing enough of a HAG burst to be an issue to you?

Usually because I'm busy with multiple other enemies my team is ignoring, or my team has decided to needlessly rotate 90°-180° across the map leaving myself and others exposed, or any number of situations that aren't sitting behind cover at extreme range occasionally poking to snipe as its the only viable gameplay style if you want to advance in PR despite it being boring as hell. Go make a new account and give out PR5 a try while also not sticking to exclusively "meta" builds. You'll see the problem, surely.

...though maybe after this nightmare of an "event" is over

[VeeOt Dragon]

i detest this event. i have always found that the more players on the field in a game makes it more fun (at least for me). more players means less reliance on having to play meta builds (lets face it they are boring as hell in most cases) or being able to play more support builds (things like spotter lights and LRM) it looks like i will be waiting until its over before i finish the loot bag event.

as for the reasons behind doing it, it all seems like ********. even on my old **** PC this game ran just fine (then again my monitor is something like 780p so i don't bother with max graphics settings). wait times were never that long with the longest i ever had being maybe a minute when i play at odd times perhaps 2. i played 2 matches (that was all i could handle) and noticed no change in TTK at all. hell one match had one team fielding i think at least 4 assaults (maybe more) and we had NONE. at least with 12v12 lopsided tonnage matches weren't as prevalent and when they did happen it wasn't so extreme.

as for the Discord well i haven't touched it and never will. from everything i have heard its pretty much just comp players other like sorts.

i agree with others in that if this is the way PGI is going it will chase off more players than it gains. if you are going to cut player numbers then cut out groups entirely and give them back their Group Que.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

VaelophisNyx, on 17 August 2024 - 05:23 PM, said:

Usually because I'm busy with multiple other enemies my team is ignoring, or my team has decided to needlessly rotate 90°-180° across the map leaving myself and others exposed

This is literally every tier in PUGlandia. If I had the time I'm pretty sure I can create an account and rise to tier 1 using only vindis because mech choice really doesn't impact your tier outside some stinkers like the Pretty Baby which is anything but.

[Tarl Cabot]

• The following could be applied to 8v8, 10v10 (Trashborns) and 12vs12
  
  • Remove the tonnage setup and revert it back to matching weight classes as it was in the Solo Queue.
    
  • Setup groups to one mech per weight class
    
  • 3-man max groups
    
  • Only allow double 2-man groups, remove the 3-man from the equation.

And for the MM, when the MM is seeded, for groups to be in a drop, do they have to be seeded first? Then switching to matching weight class for teams would require groups to be locked to one mech/weight class but the groups being locked to one weight class would not be dependent on teams being switched to matching weight classes, and the one mech/weight class could be tested first.

[I D K]

I've played a couple dozen matches. Que times insanely fast, but I play solo only. I gather from this feedback that groups had larger wait times. Mine were mostly instantaneous. I enjoyed 8v8, but would not want it to continue as it is even though my my avg match score and dmg were higher in 8v8. In fact I may not play as much as I might otherwise until it's back to normal. The problem, and I think ultimately what is ruining it for most people, is the pgi problems with balance and matchmaking. Specifically that teams are not balanced to each other at all. Without groups this would balance out more, but with groups it's amplified. If it's a t1 group on one side and a t3 group on the other, the match is basically decided in 12v12, and it's a landslide in 8v8 w 4 man groups. In 8v8 with mismatched groups the game isn't fun at all for a solo dropper regardless of which side you're on. If pgi did a second balancing pass at trying to even team skill levels just a bit, you could do 8v8 w any number in groups and it would be fun and work well for people. That's what I see anyway.

[-VooDoo-]

Personally I think a 9v9 format (3 lances with 3 each) should be permanent....

[patrat124]

I've been reading all the comments up to this point and I'm surprised at some of the HORRIBLE takes on both sides (not going to call out anything in particular cuz I'm not smart enough to do it in a way that could be taken seriously)

this is the second time I've ever interacted with the community outside of the game itself via allchat in a match, the first time being another comment on this thread (I think it's on page two of the replies). I am a casual scatlord and I've never touched competitive queues (I don't even know where the menu for comp is to be completely honest)

this is just kind of a re-summation of my thoughts after seeing everyone else talking about it as well as some new stuff. I can totally see the advantages of 8v8 with the faster queue times and even improved engine performance due to 8 less mechs in the match. the idea of a more tactical gamemode with more emphasis on strategy also seems quite fun and does seem like something I would like to dabble in if I could get a group of friends together to actually try and do things with in a voice call. but the times when I actually have that group of friends available are very rare and I think every time I've had a group to play with it's been a brand new group of people that I'm getting into the game for the first time. I don't think I'm alone in the casual community within this game when I say I don't have many if any friends that play this game. I've made a few friends in game that I've started to play with more often recently but due to the lack of "easy to use" social features (the social menu in game is awful imo and it took me a long time to figure out how all the functions worked) making friends in game is harder than most other online games I've played. making the 8v8 mode something I really can't enjoy even though I can see the advantages.

on the flipside 12v12 is SUPER fun for me because I'm not that great of a player. even when I'm having a mediocre match there's usually two or three people right next to me that can clean up the slack and make the game far more enjoyable. and if I have a really crap match where I don't contribute anything I apologize because "hey guys, I was pretty useless. sorry" doesn't lose my team the match. in 12v12 I can drop in my favorite light mechs every match and go for absurd flanking strategies that sometimes work and it doesn't drag down the entire team and even if I don't contribute a whole lot I can usually cause chaos in the enemy firing line which gives my team enough of an advantage to take out a couple enemy mechs. I tried to do the same in 8v8 yesterday night when I tried to play my normal quickplay and both games I played my team lost the match and I got berated by both teams for choosing a light mech and doing light mech things. the following match I played a medium with two ac5's and we had two light mechs on our team who went to do light mech things only to be faced by four assault mechs on the enemy team who obliterated them instantly. which caused us to lose the match because it turned into a 6v8 minutes after the game started.

TLDR: I don't like 8v8 because it requires me to have good synergy, communication, and strategy with 7 complete strangers who usually don't have voip and it also prevents me from being able to play builds that I actually enjoy playing in favor for large heavy mechs with a ton of cannons or lasers in the hopes to outdo the damage numbers of the enemy team.

I really wish again that 8v8 was in a separate queue so that casual queue scrublords like me could still have enjoyable matches. even if 12v12 has longer queue times I can literally just watch youtube or write or do art while waiting for a match. the longest I've EVER waited for a match in MWO was just under 5 minutes and that five minutes didn't really feel like much because I was doing stuff while waiting. guys, you don't have to stare at the loading circle while waiting for the game to find you a match, you can like go do other things on your pc while waiting, it's capable of doing that. and even if you only have one monitor if you're on windows it flashes the icon orange on the taskbar as soon as it finds a match. a very standout indicator of "hey we found a match for you get off your butt and open the game again". idk. I would say this is just my two cents but this is more like two whole dollars at this point

[Adalonzo]

VaelophisNyx, on 17 August 2024 - 05:23 PM, said:

Usually because I'm busy with multiple other enemies my team is ignoring, or my team has decided to needlessly rotate 90°-180° across the map leaving myself and others exposed, or any number of situations that aren't sitting behind cover at extreme range occasionally poking to snipe as its the only viable gameplay style if you want to advance in PR despite it being boring as hell. Go make a new account and give out PR5 a try while also not sticking to exclusively "meta" builds. You'll see the problem, surely.

...though maybe after this nightmare of an "event" is over

I mean sure i can, but consideing I've already climbed to t2, almost t1 and I've only been playing a few months now, I don't think it'll be very different, especially since the majority of my climb was with particularly slow assaults, which isn't the meta. Only started playing meta builds recently in fact, as i am interested in a higher level of play. Hell, here is a fun one, pick five mechs for me, I'll make a new account and climb in my off time with it for you.

This is definitely a you issue, not a HAG balancing issue. I'm a relatively new player who actually learned the game and climbed recently, so i am the wrong person to try and gaslight honestly.

[patrat124]

Adalonzo, on 17 August 2024 - 06:05 PM, said:

I mean sure i can, but consideing I've already climbed to t2, almost t1 and I've only been playing a few months now, I don't think it'll be very different, especially since the majority of my climb was with particularly slow assaults, which isn't the meta. Only started playing meta builds recently in fact, as i am interested in a higher level of play. Hell, here is a fun one, pick five mechs for me, I'll make a new account and climb in my off time with it for you.

This is definitely a you issue, not a HAG balancing issue. I'm a relatively new player who actually learned the game and climbed recently, so i am the wrong person to try and gaslight honestly.

on the note of this post I've been playing the game off and on for what I think is the better part of 5+ years and recently broke 100 hours of playtime on steam and I'm still in t5 because i just do whatever I find fun in the moment. maybe a skill issue on my part (most likely the case) or something odd about how climbing actually works (I've never bothered actually trying to climb because honestly I didn't even know the tiers were a thing until a few months ago) but I feel I play fairly well whenever I do actually put in effort and I feel like I should have gone up at least one tier since I joined the game. who knows tho

[Red October]

smokefield, on 17 August 2024 - 03:20 PM, said:

this event showed clearly the weakness of this game. it is a team game, but people play it solo. and in 8v8 you cannot hide behind numbers like in 12v12. it is team play or lose. so those that complain now you can really know 2 things for sure:
1. they are not a team player
2. generally are those people not sharing armour, and hide behind to do some damage.

if in 12v12 you can really hide your lack of skill or team play, here it is much harder. just a skill issue...

Sorry, but this is wildly incorrect. A group of individuals working towards a common goal? Sure. But not a team. If you are grouped up, that is a team, but solo PUGs are definitely not. Nor is this a 'team game'. I would love to know the stats on what percent of players play what percent of their games in a group.
PGI, in all its infinite wisdom, continues to cater to the few at the expense of the many. And the population numbers reflect that.

[Neeko Deetrix]

Nimnul, on 16 August 2024 - 03:58 AM, said:

Many players suffer every day because they can't choose a mech after choosing a map. Now people take a close build and get to a long map. Take a long, get to a close map. The game would be more interesting if I could prepare myself for the battle on each map as much as possible. It's quite easy to do. If I was on asalt, then I can choose asalt, if it's important of the same weight.

No. Just...no.

[CFC Conky]

@Tiy0s,

So I did some drops to participate in the experiment. I found it to be 5/10 at best but I hope you can gather enough information and/or feedback to improve the game for players of ALL skill levels.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 17 August 2024 - 07:30 PM.

[Adalonzo]

Red October, on 17 August 2024 - 07:09 PM, said:

Sorry, but this is wildly incorrect. A group of individuals working towards a common goal? Sure. But not a team. If you are grouped up, that is a team, but solo PUGs are definitely not. Nor is this a 'team game'. I would love to know the stats on what percent of players play what percent of their games in a group.
PGI, in all its infinite wisdom, continues to cater to the few at the expense of the many. And the population numbers reflect that.

By every possbile definition I could find, this is most definitely a team game. Should I even bother linking you the definitions of something that obvious or would you like to retract that statement?

Just because you refuse to play in a way that helps your team doesn't mean the game isn't a team game. That just makes you a bad player.

[Neeko Deetrix]

Shadovar-Assassin, on 17 August 2024 - 01:35 AM, said:

How about game modes that only allows one weight class, ie 12v12 but using light mechs only, mediums only, heavys only or assaults.
Now that would be more fun and interesting!

I feel this would be crazy fun!!!!!

[FRAGTAST1C]

patrat124, on 17 August 2024 - 06:01 PM, said:

TLDR: I don't like 8v8 because it requires me to have good synergy, communication, and strategy with 7 complete strangers who usually don't have voip and it also prevents me from being able to play builds that I actually enjoy playing in favor for large heavy mechs with a ton of cannons or lasers in the hopes to outdo the damage numbers of the enemy team.

I really wish again that 8v8 was in a separate queue so that casual queue scrublords like me could still have enjoyable matches. even if 12v12 has longer queue times I can literally just watch youtube or write or do art while waiting for a match. the longest I've EVER waited for a match in MWO was just under 5 minutes and that five minutes didn't really feel like much because I was doing stuff while waiting. guys, you don't have to stare at the loading circle while waiting for the game to find you a match, you can like go do other things on your pc while waiting, it's capable of doing that. and even if you only have one monitor if you're on windows it flashes the icon orange on the taskbar as soon as it finds a match. a very standout indicator of "hey we found a match for you get off your butt and open the game again". idk. I would say this is just my two cents but this is more like two whole dollars at this point

I feel your tune would be quite different if PGI didn't make this change on a whim and instead took better care at tweaking matchmaker to check for tonnage balance and group restrictions.