272 replies to this topic

[martian]

Tiy0s, on 17 August 2024 - 06:12 AM, said:

So that was a lot of words. I guess the question is where we go from here?

It is my belief that, when properly tuned, 8v8 will be better for MWO than 12v12. To put some conspiracy theories to rest, this was not some test to see how much the community likes 8v8. It was just a fun little event on a whim. Both 8v8 and 12v12 have their drawbacks, but I believe 8v8 would lead to a net benefit for the game if done properly.

Don’t sound the trumpet yet Gabriel, apocalypse isn’t here. I’m just listing my thoughts aloud.

Group and solo queues being merged(colloquially known as soup queue) is here to stay, that’s not changing. If we go to 8v8 groups would have to be limited to 3, but that’s not going away.

As it is now, a 4-man premade is 33% of a 12-man team and they often have a decisive influence over the result of a match.

A 3-man premade in a 8-man team would be 37%, i.e. the premades would be actually even stronger than they are now and casual solo players would be even more irrelevant than they are now.

Tiy0s, on 17 August 2024 - 06:12 AM, said:

Maybe we’ll see more 8v8 down the road, maybe we won’t. If we do, I’m confident that we can get it right with more experimentation. If 8v8 one day becomes the norm, I will personally make sure there are plenty of 12v12 event queues with massive groups enabled. Something like max groups of 6 or 8.

So the casual solo players would have the choice of either being farmed in your 8v8 Quick Play, where the premades will be even stronger than they are now, or the casual solo players could play a 12v12 Event queue once a month, where 8-man premade would be 66% of a team. Casual solo players would be just a hapless cannon fodder in such games.

Tiy0s, on 17 August 2024 - 06:12 AM, said:

Like almost everything in a live service game, not everything is known at the start. A lot of it comes from testing and listening to feedback. So thanks everyone for giving your feedback here and elsewhere, I am reading it all.

MWO players gave PGI their feedback in the PGI's official poll. The result of that voting was that MWO players refused the switch to 8v8.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

martian, on 17 August 2024 - 07:38 AM, said:

So the casual solo players would have the choice of either being farmed in your 8v8 Quick Play, where the premades will be even stronger than they are now, or the casual solo players could play a 12v12 Event queue once a month, where 8-man premade would be 66% of a team. Casual solo players would be just a hapless cannon fodder in such games.

I play solo most of the time I play in QP, in general most "premades" are actively throwing more so than they are good (a 4 man of warthogs I've already had to play with in 8v8, much to my dismay). Now the brawlier premades will do better in 8v8 because the "sniper" meta is harder to pull off in 8v8 but still not sure why people treat all premades as good. Hell used to be I'd have taken a bunch of solo players over a HHOD premade because they were just that bad.

martian, on 17 August 2024 - 07:38 AM, said:

MWO players gave PGI their feedback in the PGI's official poll. The result of that voting was that MWO players refused the switch to 8v8.

Last time I saw this vote it was pretty evenly split. That said, 8v8 helps with a lot of the problems the community complains about with regards to TTK and how strong range is.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 17 August 2024 - 09:02 AM.

[LordNothing]

one thing i noticed was that i was actually having fun. i had a couple games where i died pretty quick but to be fair i was in a scaleshot both times, and that mech has paper machet armor (and i forgot to hit override on one).

also feels like wait/load times are less. sometimes you still get a guy on your match who is either in zimbabwe or still uses spinning rust for their install. even after all these years im still frequently first connected. i like to thank my 2tb 4th gen force mp600 for that.

it would be nice to have 12v12 and 8v8 served up based on activity at the time. 12v12 at peak hours and 8v8 elsewhere. game is especially slow after the west coast goes to bed and it can take forever for us night owls to get a match. at least till the oceanic people get home from work.

another 8v8 advantage is it allows for future map design to be of a smaller sort. less area to decorate. not sure if any more maps are in the work though. but with how many paid legends i see in the game, you should be able to swing a few before closing day,

i have a feeling the game will tech out before the population evaporates. especially if say it doesn't work very well on win12 or next gen hardware. performance really isn't a concern as i can break 120hz refresh most of the time with 12. even steam deck runs it well. which is expected for a decade old game (again a lot of people haven't upgraded since the game launched). not everyone has a computer building itch to scratch like i do.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 August 2024 - 09:11 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I love 8v8.

All it needs is 2 man team limits for group drops, and tonnage limits.

270 tons regardless of group size 2/3/4, kinda throws the balance.

I think 200 T or even 190 T per group fits better.

Unless MM can work efficiently with with 2/2/2/2 balance. LIGHT / MEDIUM / HEAVY / ASSAULT

If this isn't working as 8v8, how about running 10v10 for a weekend sometime in the future?

[johnnyq666]

best weekend ever
8vs8 !!!

[Saved By The Bell]

I played some, it was complete random. Not so terrible. 12 is more fun, of course.

[Adalonzo]

I love 8v8, far superior to 12v12 and should be the default mode. That said: Really sad you didn't attach an C-bill/EXP increase to this.

[Far Reach]

"This was definitely one of the kool komp kids ideas."
Ding, ding! Winner!

Anyone surprised that they are abusing the remaining players that haven't been driven off by their politics?

Basically, everyone took their balls and went home, so the dregs bought the ball factory and demolished the houses.

[Far Reach]

Magic Pain Glove, on 17 August 2024 - 01:54 AM, said:

Ok .. As I predicted in my first post under this thread , this weekend test has confused people greatly .

Few points :

• Wording of this "Event" was a little bit confusing with a lot of people thinking it was Event Queue . Since it was named as "8V8 QUICK PLAY WEEKEND EVENT" instead of "8V8 QUICK PLAY WEEKEND TEST" or something similar.
  
• Compies are in no way at fault for this event , people throwing stones their way are only doing it so because they are mentioned in this post. Many wont but some people that have played the game since the start will remember that the game used to be 8v8 initially . Compies in no way conspired with PGI to make this event a thing , they were as unaware as the rest of you.
  
• MWO Spaghetti code complicated things since groups of 3 restriction didn't work properly and people got to experience a slightly more extreme version of Soup Queue. Where more than 50% of the team was essentially all grouped players giving (good or bad) groups a lot of influence over match outcome.
  
• Because tonnage restrictions or limits were not adjusted to accommodate the change people can see more heavier classes in the queue since that's just the nature of things and preference of most of the playerbase in general , especially if you don't place restrictions on it.

That said ... People shouldn't be judging 8v8 format based on this test because of the above mentioned points . like I said in the first post soup queue (mix of groups and solos ) complicates things greatly . But 8v8 format does have a number of advantages when compared to 12v12 and I will mention some of them below .

• Increased TTK . Since there are less things shooting at you at any given time , TTK of all mechs on the battlefield was extended.
  
• Increased game performance . Since there are less mechs and since less unoptimized effects are being spammed everyone is getting a sizable game performance boost.
  
• More individual player agency . Players individual actions now matter more now since there are less players in a match.
  
• Faster match formation . Less people needed for Match Maker to form a match results in more matches being kicked off faster and in greater quantity.

All in all people shouldn't feel alienated from 8v8 based on this brief test , certain things just went wrong , were not optimized as much as they could be and were worded a bit confusingly.

Did not expect a wall of cope from you, MPG.
Reconcile.

[1453 R]

martian, on 17 August 2024 - 07:38 AM, said:

As it is now, a 4-man premade is 33% of a 12-man team and they often have a decisive influence over the result of a match.

A 3-man premade in a 8-man team would be 37%, i.e. the premades would be actually even stronger than they are now and casual solo players would be even more irrelevant than they are now.

So the casual solo players would have the choice of either being farmed in your 8v8 Quick Play, where the premades will be even stronger than they are now, or the casual solo players could play a 12v12 Event queue once a month, where 8-man premade would be 66% of a team. Casual solo players would be just a hapless cannon fodder in such games.

MWO players gave PGI their feedback in the PGI's official poll. The result of that voting was that MWO players refused the switch to 8v8.

This entire post can basically be boiled down to "I don't want to have to exert any effort at all in MWO, and I would still like to win every game I drop in."

People keep complaining about "solo casual players getting farmed". Does that ever actually happen? And if it does, do they care? I mostly play solo, I'm casual, and I have never once given a spit if I see group tags on the other side. If they win they win, if we win we win. My own performance is what concerns me, not some nebulous, never-properly-defined 'Unfair Advantage' the other side has.

A desire for strictly solo 12-man games is a desire to never have to hold yourself accountable for your own performance. Nah. I'd rather continue to Have Friends I can play with sometimes than a "game" designed exclusively to avoid making me feel bad about losing.

[Far Reach]

"Well this thread is much more lively than I expected it to be! A few thoughts before I go back to bed to sleep in(it is Saturday after all!) since I was the one who wrote the event:"

Saw the event.. thought to myself... this has "Tiyos" written all over it.
I hate it when I'm right. But it is what it is.

Up is up, down is down and the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

[W4R GOD]

Absolute trash. Most people playing are not grouped so stop forcing them to. This was not the issue of the day and wasting effort on it shows a complete disconnect from the player base.

Leave the 12 v 12 alone and make a 8 v 8 event a thing periodically. You already had the tools to do this. Just stop.

[TestBacon]

Welp, this sucks. I'll be taking a break till the 21st I guess. I tried to give this a chance but no, just not good.

[torsie]

Oh now I notice it is longer, not only weekend.
Will some of things change, or will it remain the same for all 4 days?

Or maybe it can give more rewards like other events?

Edited by torsie, 17 August 2024 - 11:30 AM.

[VaelophisNyx]

Tiy0s, on 17 August 2024 - 06:12 AM, said:

Well this thread is much more lively than I expected it to be! A few thoughts before I go back to bed to sleep in(it is Saturday after all!) since I was the one who wrote the event:

- Putting comp in the description may have been a mistake on my end. Competitive players had nothing to do with this, there’s no influx of competitive players in QP at the moment, the pool of players now is the same it has always been. I just wanted to do an 8v8 QP event and this was a good excuse to do it.

- The game absolutely runs better in 8v8. Most people don’t realize it, but a mech is an incredibly complex asset. Far more complicated than a character model from another shooter. A mech is often composed of over 20-40 different models and the game must keep a live tracker of every component and critical slot of every mech while it’s alive and on the field. Comparing it to a game like battlefield where you see massive battles isn’t quite a fitting comparison. Removing 8 mechs from the field will absolutely improve your FPS if you’re struggling on one of our more intensive maps(Solaris or Free Worlds comes to mind).

- My matchmaker adjustments were hasty to say the least. When this is done again(who knows when that will be) we will probably adjust the matchmaker to be more strict in ELO/weight variations since we’ll have more wiggle room with less players in each match. Games certainly happen a lot quicker, we can see that on the backend, so we could stand to attempt more fine tuning of player distribution per match.

- In line with my previous point about matchmaker, the issue of 4 man groups being allowed will not repeat the next time.

- I’ve seen a lot of talks about Time to Kill, player agency, how matches play out, etc. Obviously a big thing will be that matches are shorter and you’ll get into new ones quicker. In a match, average TTK should stay roughly the same, but instances where you find yourself randomly facing down six mechs after turning a corner and getting obliterated in 2 seconds should be much rarer. A 2v2 will take just as long, but the chances of instant death have gone down a lot. Another thing is player agency. I’ve played a lot of 12v12 games where I have scored well over 1200-1500 damage and lost. Which is nothing bad about the game mode, it’s just how 12v12 works. I’m 8.3% of the team, me alone having a great game isn’t enough to win it always. In 8v8, I’m 12.5% of the team. A 4 kill 700 damage game is good in 12v12, but in an 8v8 game that goes from good to probably winning the game for your team. Every action you as a player takes(and your teammates as well) has so much more impact.

For some people, they love that. They stop feeling like a cog and become the rising star. For some people, they don’t like that. They don’t want the burden of winning on their shoulders and are just here to enjoy the fight and play the stompy robot game with giant battles. Both are equally valid mindsets, but it’s easy to see how diametrically opposed they become in a choice of 8v8 and 12v12.



So that was a lot of words. I guess the question is where we go from here?

It is my belief that, when properly tuned, 8v8 will be better for MWO than 12v12. To put some conspiracy theories to rest, this was not some test to see how much the community likes 8v8. It was just a fun little event on a whim. Both 8v8 and 12v12 have their drawbacks, but I believe 8v8 would lead to a net benefit for the game if done properly.

Don’t sound the trumpet yet Gabriel, apocalypse isn’t here. I’m just listing my thoughts aloud.

Group and solo queues being merged(colloquially known as soup queue) is here to stay, that’s not changing. If we go to 8v8 groups would have to be limited to 3, but that’s not going away. What we could look at is increasing both the minimum and reducing the maximum tonnage for groups, clamping down on the groups that bring a bunch of heavy weapons to stomp and the groups that bring 4 lights and drag their teams down.

Maybe we’ll see more 8v8 down the road, maybe we won’t. If we do, I’m confident that we can get it right with more experimentation. If 8v8 one day becomes the norm, I will personally make sure there are plenty of 12v12 event queues with massive groups enabled. Something like max groups of 6 or 8.

Like almost everything in a live service game, not everything is known at the start. A lot of it comes from testing and listening to feedback. So thanks everyone for giving your feedback here and elsewhere, I am reading it all.


I typed too much, I can’t go back to bed now. I’m going to go make breakfast.

I really hope you're not serious about doing this again, ever. This is a disaster for fun for the average player. Use the event queue system ffs. Why even implement it if you don't want to use it!

Also why does ONE dev get so much control on an on-a-whim decision?-
Do you even play the damn game?

Edited by VaelophisNyx, 17 August 2024 - 11:33 AM.

[Tiy0s]

VaelophisNyx, on 17 August 2024 - 11:25 AM, said:

I really hope you're not serious about doing this again, ever. This is a disaster for fun for the average player. Use the event queue system ffs. Why even implement it if you don't want to use it!

Also why does ONE dev get so much control on an on-a-whim decision?-
Do you even play the damn game?

We’ll have to see. The event queue system has its drawbacks as well. It’s interesting because while this forum thread is mostly against 8v8, but almost every community discord server I’m in is generally for 8v8. I’d say there are probably more people on all of those servers than we see active on the forums. I don’t think I’ve seen feedback this ranged in a long time.

I don’t have sole control over the game, I had to run this event through the team like I do everything else I do for MWO. Since I’m primarily an artist and mech designer, I don’t even have the keys to start this event. Someone else had to do it for me

I play lots of MWO, probably too much for my own good lol. I test things in quick play a lot, mostly new content/mechs or stuff we’re currently looking at for balance patches. I’m also a very active competitive player, used to play for ABIN and now I’m on KDCM. My activity has gone down a bit recently due to also working on Clans as well and that taking up a lot of my time, but I always make sure to make room for MWO. No matter how much is on my plate, I will always make time for MWO to keep trying to enrich it for its players.

[Paul Barry]

I'm enjoying 8v8 and hope to see more of it down the road. thanks.

[Paul Meyers DEST]

I like it

[solarmus]

• MWO Spaghetti code complicated things since groups of 3 restriction didn't work properly and people got to experience a slightly more extreme version of Soup Queue. Where more than 50% of the team was essentially all grouped players giving (good or bad) groups a lot of influence over match outcome.
  
• Because tonnage restrictions or limits were not adjusted to accommodate the change people can see more heavier classes in the queue since that's just the nature of things and preference of most of the playerbase in general , especially if you don't place restrictions on it.

These were the same issues as when they first did the 8 vs 8 test, with no improvement more than a year out. I'd say it's fine to factor these into your 8 vs 8 judgement as it looks like it not going to change.

• Increased TTK . Since there are less things shooting at you at any given time , TTK of all mechs on the battlefield was extended.
  
• Increased game performance . Since there are less mechs and since less unoptimized effects are being spammed everyone is getting a sizable game performance boost.
  
• More individual player agency . Players individual actions now matter more now since there are less players in a match.
  
• Faster match formation . Less people needed for Match Maker to form a match results in more matches being kicked off faster and in greater quantity

The only one of those that seems to hold true is the game performance (esp. on maps like Solaris).

TTK is usually the same as Alphas are still often lethal. I guess you get more time walking around looking for the enemy but TTK from start of engagement is the same basically.

Queue times are similar in that they're very variable, but now you get a shorter game to play between queues...yay.

Player agency is up but so is the consequence of a DC or a player deliberately playing poorly, to the point that a single player with connection issues can sway a match too much.


Without dramatically altering how the matchmaker works, spawn points, map sizes, etc 8 vs 8 is non-functional.

(also, switching QP to matches that give less damage/match score potential during a damage/match score event is just a bad idea)[color=#CCCCCC]
[/color]

[Battlemech Operational]

I'd love to see a 24 vs 24 match (with more people than a 12 vs 12 match) as an event sometime