88 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PelinalWhitestrake, on 28 August 2024 - 07:01 AM, said:

As i said, use Stock as of now is stupid

But if the timeline and models jumped to the ilClan era alongside all of the stuff in it, it would be balanced.
Because all of the Stocks we see now were outdated in favor of new ones, even the mauler is being built again under a new default as the awesome.

ilClan doesn't fix anything, unless you count making mixtech more common

[Bigbacon]

I wouldn't mind seeing something that gets more people to run full omnipod clan mechs.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Samziel, on 21 August 2024 - 11:35 PM, said:

I wasnt around back then but I've heard the 2018 WC (stock only) was not liked.

I was part of the original stock league ran by the russian falcons. It was honestly enjoyed but like any niche community only 12-14 people would ever show up for the once a week meeting. I'd say it fell apart because the introduction of quirks made stock mechs impossible to achieve. We had to create all these house rules and it was a such a huge pain that people gave up on it.

That and we had to put up with Bishop Steiner's 'charming personality' in person which took its toll.

[1453 R]

The stock tabletop configurations were designed for a turn-based game in which a single player controlled an entire unit of combined-arms forces.

Those numbers and mechanics are not appropriate for a real-time shooter where each player controls only a single unit. Especially when a core, critical mechanic of the tabletop rules - physical/melee combat and the impact of knockdowns and pilot injuries - is entirely absent.

As well, let's be real - whenever someone says "STOCK MODE!", what they're actually saying is "STOCK MODE INTROTECH ONLY!" -no lostech, no Helm Memory Core, no Clans, no Civil War. Succession Wars only, and generally only the third one, not the fourth. 'Mechs and configurations designed thirty or forty years ago before anyone had really grasped the way the rules interlocked and flowed together. This is because these are the 'Mechs that the 'Mech Dads have the biggest nostalgia bwners for, the giant stompy robots of their childhood that feature in all the best books (except for the other best books) and all the best vidya gaems. They want to return to what they perceive as the purity, simplicity, and Mad Max Wastelander IN SPAAACE(!!) aesthetic of the Succession Wars.

Which is fair. Totally fine to want that. They aren't ever going to get it, but they're perfectly entitled to want it.

[pattonesque]

1453 R, on 02 September 2024 - 01:52 PM, said:

The stock tabletop configurations were designed for a turn-based game in which a single player controlled an entire unit of combined-arms forces.

Also a number of them are clearly designed as OpFor trooper mechs with huge weaknesses

[kalashnikity]

How about a C-bill (or maybe even MC) bonus per match, for using a 100% stock mech?

[kalashnikity]

Bigbacon, on 02 September 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind seeing something that gets more people to run full omnipod clan mechs.

Give a ~6% C-Bill bonus and 3MC per match for running a 100% stock, non-hero clan mech (including armor balance).

~12% C-Bill bonus and 5MC per match for running a 100% stock, non-hero IS mech (including armor balance)

Allow skill points and consumables though.

maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower, but that's the general idea. Give an incentive to run stock mechs.

[Void Angel]

There are two bad outcomes from that idea, once people realize just how badly stock 'mechs perform - either they'll stop doing it, or else they won't.

The only thing worse than getting your teeth kicked in over and over because you're playing a bad build is having to carry around people who push into the enemy team over and over, dying for 3MC...

[Ttly]

kalashnikity, on 04 September 2024 - 01:14 PM, said:

Give a ~6% C-Bill bonus and 3MC per match for running a 100% stock, non-hero clan mech (including armor balance). ~12% C-Bill bonus and 5MC per match for running a 100% stock, non-hero IS mech (including armor balance) Allow skill points and consumables though. maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower, but that's the general idea. Give an incentive to run stock mechs.

"Please throw games by playing mechs with terrible builds that might as well put your team 1 player less just so you can selfishly get more hangarbux."

It won't be fun for either you or your team if this were actually a thing.
Or you know, you'd just see people running the same few vehicles that has actually decent stock loadouts over and over.

Edited by Ttly, 04 September 2024 - 02:09 PM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

Yeah no... never pushing that solution. You see it as an incentive to play stock... I see people grinding hundreds of matches in crap mechs getting insta-blapped by meta builds or relying on non-stock players to carry them. Or we're reduced to only playing Warhawk Primes.

[Rosarius]

Bigbacon, on 02 September 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind seeing something that gets more people to run full omnipod clan mechs.

My EXE-M is ready

kalashnikity, on 04 September 2024 - 01:01 PM, said:

How about a C-bill (or maybe even MC) bonus per match, for using a 100% stock mech?

Cool, now it's PGI sanctioned seal clubbing

[kalashnikity]

You think people will play bad stock builds?

Not all stock builds are bad.

[Void Angel]

Stock builds are almost exclusively bad. There are a handful of stock 'mechs - nearly all of them Clan - that are decent in MWO. The rest of them are terrible, so yes: the people who want to play stock 'mechs will definitely play bad builds, because that is inherently what they are asking to play.

[Tiy0s]

hoooo boy, I hear the echos of 2018 screaming....

Jokes aside, I'd be very disinclined for a stock mode because not all stock mechs are made equal. Even if we exclude apocryphal mechs like most heroes, all legends, special mechs, etc there are still plenty of stock mechs that just invalidate the existence of others. If anyone remembers the meta from 2019 to 2021 before Cauldron came in, only a handful of mechs were viable and every other mech was garbage. This is how stock mode will be.

The only solution to that problem would be massively pruning mechs and only allowing select mechs to be in stock mode or splitting the queue into tiers a la solaris. Both of those ideas also have their serious drawbacks.

So yeah, stock is probably more trouble than it's worth and always looks nice on paper but will be hell to play.

[kalashnikity]

Tiy0s, on 05 September 2024 - 08:34 AM, said:

hoooo boy, I hear the echos of 2018 screaming....

Jokes aside, I'd be very disinclined for a stock mode because not all stock mechs are made equal. Even if we exclude apocryphal mechs like most heroes, all legends, special mechs, etc there are still plenty of stock mechs that just invalidate the existence of others. If anyone remembers the meta from 2019 to 2021 before Cauldron came in, only a handful of mechs were viable and every other mech was garbage. This is how stock mode will be.

The only solution to that problem would be massively pruning mechs and only allowing select mechs to be in stock mode or splitting the queue into tiers a la solaris. Both of those ideas also have their serious drawbacks.

So yeah, stock is probably more trouble than it's worth and always looks nice on paper but will be hell to play.

How about a middle ground?

Stock weapons, but with every tweak available, double heat sinks, endo (and ferro as applicable) ugraded engines.

As long as the specific weapons that show up in the paperdoll match perfectly with the original stock loadout.

Lots of stock weapon loadouts are fine, if you just add things like Endo and double heat sinks, and swap Standard engine for a Light, (or an XL, mostly in mech under 50 tons).

I can post numerous examples. I Can even run some matches to prove it.

Edited by kalashnikity, 06 September 2024 - 11:59 AM.

[kalashnikity]

Here is a perfect and iconic example.

The Catapult C1,

Stock.



Modded but with stock paperdoll.



I'll buy this mech right now, I have a bunch of skill points saved up, so I can level it up immediately and play some matches in it.

Maybe a poor example since LRM are so nerfed, but I'm feeling spunky, lets do this/

I added armor and ammo, changed the engine, added endo, changed to double heat sinks and added more of them. Slapped on a BAP.

I even kept the same number of jump jets, even though that many are not generally needed.

My opponents will see a stock catapult.

I think that is simple enough to code, to give a slight bc-bill (and maybe a tiny MC) bonus for using a loadout that appears stock in the paper doll. Right nerd boys?

Edited by kalashnikity, 06 September 2024 - 12:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

That's not "better", that's still a garbage build, and it isn't like you can pass it through an algorithm to decide what engine to use etc.

[BlueDevilspawn]

That mech is absolute crap... and there's no mechanism for "Stock +".... it's either stock or customized.

[kalashnikity]

All in the name of science. I doubt I'll stay T2 for long, running LRMS.

I'll post results.

Skills

Edited by kalashnikity, 06 September 2024 - 01:49 PM.

[1453 R]

The other thing to note, Kalash, is that they kinnasorta tried that. The original waves of Great Quirkening were all about enhancements to specific weapon systems in order to try and encourage/improve stock builds. Only the 'Mechs whose Stock-Enbettering Quirks actually lined up with worthwhile builds saw any significant use. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." Or: "when every 'Mech is varying degrees of poopy, the halfway-decentish 'Mech becomes invincible.

Stock Mode, however it's modified or enforced, does not change what makes a 'Mech good in MWO. The stock designs - especially the IntroTech stuff that is all anyone ever thinks about when "STOCK MODE" is brought up - were designed forty years ago for a fundamentally different experience. You cannot tell people to stick exclusively to them in a game that is simply not run remotely the same as what those original numbers were made for.