77 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

LordNothing, on 11 November 2024 - 10:49 AM, said:

fp had some great coordinated brawls. i miss those.

One of my fondest FP memories was when me and some friends lined up literally 12 atlases at the gates of boreal vault and waited for the enemy to pop them open. When they did, and saw what was waiting for them, I **** you not, some of them turned around and ran away with their backs facing us.

[Moadebe]

pbiggz, on 18 November 2024 - 01:31 PM, said:

One of my fondest FP memories was when me and some friends lined up literally 12 atlases at the gates of boreal vault and waited for the enemy to pop them open. When they did, and saw what was waiting for them, I **** you not, some of them turned around and ran away with their backs facing us.

lol nice

[LordNothing]

i had one of my best kill streaks in fp. was in a dual ac10 bushie, and idk how many mechs i killed but everything i shot at over the course of a couple minutes blew up, made me long for the unreal tournament announcer (except duncan fisher).

[Bassault]

kalashnikity, on 09 November 2024 - 04:35 PM, said:

more of that "no skill" BS

The skill is in getting into a good position and surviving long enough to be useful, and in many matches that will only be at the very end of the match when the brawling starts in earnest.
Even then, most matches you will be useless for most of the match because you can't engage at long or even mid range.

With that said, if you do survive the sniper gauntlet long enough to get in a good position, and you do end up in a brawl, you will be brutal. Atlas is a great brawler and MRM, SNPP, and AC20 are a great combo.

Dude you literally just NASCAR, it isn't rocket science. NASCAR, don't get shot, crawl through low ground when the team is nearby, then get close and club enemies to death, which are usually the size of your screen. Shoot, twist, shoot, twist, shoot, twist, then you end up with +1000 dmg.

Every other mech takes far more skill to use. Lights need to be hyper aware of their surroundings as some monster assault could one shot them in any moment if they are caught slacking. Snipers need to be aware if enemies are getting near him from some flank and he needs to get to the best sniping spot on the map, then their aim actually requires some skill even if you are using just er large, it's harder than brawling. Every normal mid range mech needs to worry about these things to an extent as well. Every mech needs to have positioning and situational awareness.

Edited by Bassault, 03 December 2024 - 03:15 PM.

[RockmachinE]

Bassault, on 03 December 2024 - 03:14 PM, said:

Dude you literally just NASCAR, it isn't rocket science. NASCAR, don't get shot, crawl through low ground when the team is nearby, then get close and club enemies to death, which are usually the size of your screen. Shoot, twist, shoot, twist, shoot, twist, then you end up with +1000 dmg.

Except in reality, not in idealized scenarios in your mind, you'll be dismantled way before you even get into brawling range 95% of the time. Pure brawlers suck in the current meta. That's why you don't see any, and if you do they're usually back admiring their mechbay after 2 minutes.

[Pixel Hunter]

RockmachinE, on 04 December 2024 - 09:59 PM, said:

Pure brawlers suck in the current meta. That's why you don't see any, and if you do they're usually back admiring their mechbay after 2 minutes.

That's my theory of game balance. If you see a large percentage of players playing a certain way or certain thing in pretty much any game, it's probably because it's stronger than the rest.

[Void Angel]

Bassault, on 03 December 2024 - 03:14 PM, said:

Dude you literally just NASCAR, it isn't rocket science. NASCAR, don't get shot, crawl through low ground when the team is nearby, then get close and club enemies to death, which are usually the size of your screen. Shoot, twist, shoot, twist, shoot, twist, then you end up with +1000 dmg.

Every other mech takes far more skill to use. Lights need to be hyper aware of their surroundings as some monster assault could one shot them in any moment if they are caught slacking. Snipers need to be aware if enemies are getting near him from some flank and he needs to get to the best sniping spot on the map, then their aim actually requires some skill even if you are using just er large, it's harder than brawling. Every normal mid range mech needs to worry about these things to an extent as well. Every mech needs to have positioning and situational awareness.

Are you aware that there is a corollary to the Dunning-Kruger effect?

The "Dunning-Kruger Effect" is well-known (and usually misunderstood,) but Dunning and Kruger also found that high performers consistently underestimated their performance, effectively believing that their skills were less impressive than was actually the case. That kind of cognitive bias leads high-performing individuals to underestimate the difficulty of tasks which are easy for them, assuming that others could do them if they only tried. That's... not always the case. "Don't get shot," for example, is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 December 2024 - 08:03 AM.

[Bassault]

RockmachinE, on 04 December 2024 - 09:59 PM, said:

Except in reality, not in idealized scenarios in your mind, you'll be dismantled way before you even get into brawling range 95% of the time. Pure brawlers suck in the current meta. That's why you don't see any, and if you do they're usually back admiring their mechbay after 2 minutes.

Well you see it actually is in reality, because I've played a lot more than you have and I'm a lot better than you are, I know what I'm talking about. You have no valid reason to dismiss my statements about how to brawl. You obviously don't nascar in the open, you walk through cover, it isn't rocket science. I see brawlers in every match, I don't know what game you're playing.

Edited by Bassault, 06 December 2024 - 01:47 PM.

[Bassault]

Void Angel, on 05 December 2024 - 07:51 AM, said:

Are you aware that there is a corollary to the Dunning-Kruger effect?

The "Dunning-Kruger Effect" is well-known (and usually misunderstood,) but Dunning and Kruger also found that high performers consistently underestimated their performance, effectively believing that their skills were less impressive than was actually the case. That kind of cognitive bias leads high-performing individuals to underestimate the difficulty of tasks which are easy for them, assuming that others could do them if they only tried. That's... not always the case. "Don't get shot," for example, is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

So what about applying this to the opposite then? You are saying I think brawling is easy if you tried but really I'm some super genius and it's actually super hard for the average person. So with that idea in mind, what about things I find harder, like sniping? Every time I try to snipe I want to tear my hairs out of my head. Poptarter at 8' o clock permanently shooting my back, I'm too slow to NASCAR, I try to shoot the poptarter, the enemy NASCAR light horde tears me to pieces, I'm being shot from 4 different angles before I inevitably die 500m away from spawn. THAT is hard, to survive the spawn coin toss with a low dps mech. Even if I escape spawn and get into a good position, I have to aim far better than anyone else and I have to make sure I'm not sitting and doing nothing while my team dies off screen. To me, that is far more difficult than queueing up in the 1E or the Warlord and holding W (through cover of course) until I find an enemy, clobber 2-3 people and then clean up or watch my team snowball through the rest of the enemy.

Edited by Bassault, 06 December 2024 - 01:38 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Elite warrior with years of experience in organized play wondering why the common ground pounders with only basic training and poor situational awareness can't do what he does.

[RockmachinE]

Bassault, on 06 December 2024 - 01:31 PM, said:

Well you see it actually is in reality, because I've played a lot more than you have and I'm a lot better than you are, I know what I'm talking about.

One doesn't have to be top sweat elite tier to notice the very obvious absence of pure brawler builds on the battlefield. They are rare and easily dismantled. Obviously you are an exception to this. My sincerest apologies for ever doubting your extraordinary capabilities.

The title of the thread was Brawlers a disappearing breed, but we can make it Bassault is so good he can make any build work, should you prefer. Have a good day champ.

Edited by RockmachinE, 06 December 2024 - 05:55 PM.

[Void Angel]

Bassault, on 06 December 2024 - 01:37 PM, said:

So what about applying this to the opposite then? You are saying I think brawling is easy if you tried but really I'm some super genius and it's actually super hard for the average person.

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that the average person, even the average competent player, may find brawling to be legitimately harder than you feel it is. Nor are you a super-genius; we're talking technical skills, not intellect (one of the ways Dunning-Kruger is misunderstood, by the way.) In fact, I didn't actually take a position on brawling; I don't do it as much as I used to, myself, because I find that it's too hit-or-miss. I prefer builds that I can use more reliably, but I haven't found it to be broken.

So, what I actually said was that you should exercise a little agnosticism about how easy other people ought to find brawling.

When I bring out a sniper, I don't have the same experience that you do; sure, I can get wrecked, because low dps, etc, but not to the extent I want to pull out any of my few precious remaining hairs. =] So what are we to make of that? I'm Tier 1, so I get matched with the same pool of random goombahs you do - am I just better at sniping builds? Heh, I doubt that; but there are a number of other variables, like how my play actions interface with my teammates, the specific builds I use, and even the time of day that I play. That's the weakness of anecdotal evidence; a more skilled player's opinions on game mechanics are more authoritative than a lower-skilled player - but that higher-skill player's experiences doesn't necessarily just trump theirs.

Honestly, I believe you when you argue that brawling isn't underpowered. Simply the fact that people aren't playing them as much doesn't necessarily mean they can't be played, or even that they're underpowered - it could just be that operant conditioning is pushing people away from what is an overall viable play style.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 December 2024 - 06:52 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Brawling is dead you say?
My NSR Wolf Phoenix with 4xASRM6 and 3xSnubPPC would like a word…

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 06 December 2024 - 07:48 PM.

[East Indy]

Bassault, on 06 December 2024 - 01:31 PM, said:

I've played a lot more than you have and I'm a lot better than you are

He's probably not interested in how demonstrably awesome you are at a 12-year-old video game beyond that: whatever you possess in hand-eye-coordination you lack in self-awareness, and can't accept you're wildly unrepresentative of the player base

[Void Angel]

Oh look. Skill shaming. That's the worst bit of forum logic I've seen all day - some guy claimed the Scaleshot's only quirks are going to be double ammo next patch, but that's just an outright falsehood, so you edged him out.

As I've been suggesting, brawling is likely not as easy for the rest of the player base as it is for him, but when a dude with a championship badge tells me brawling is viable, I'm gonna believe him.

Heck, I brawl occasionally - well, I did when I still had reliable internet - so I can tell you... it don't seem broke to me. It's just not as reliable for my match times, and frankly I hate having to wait around under cover if the team stalls out into a sniping contest.

[Bassault]

East Indy, on 07 December 2024 - 06:43 AM, said:

He's probably not interested in how demonstrably awesome you are at a 12-year-old video game beyond that: whatever you possess in hand-eye-coordination you lack in self-awareness, and can't accept you're wildly unrepresentative of the player base

It's always the same response, the same insecure angry response. I don't care if you're not good at the game and if that upsets you. The point of bringing that up that "I'm so good" is that I believe being good at the game = more valuable experience and knowledge, so you should take my opinion seriously. If I was unproven and unskilled at some activity, I would listen to the opinions of those who are successful and try to learn from them.

[Gas Guzzler]

There are few constants in the universe. One is the imminent appearance of an MWO thread stating brawling is underpowered.

[Kynesis]

As always happens with player-council dominated games, everything is made to suit the few people who are associated with the council and their peers, while the game becomes absolute garbage for everyone else.

[TP Pokethrough]

Kynesis, on 09 December 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

As always happens with player-council dominated games, everything is made to suit the few people who are associated with the council and their peers, while the game becomes absolute garbage for everyone else.

the peers being... people who play the game?

You're welcome to join that club sometime instead IDK, what I can only imagine is constantly hurling yourself at the enemy and dying in 30 seconds, or ragequtting matches because you don't like the players in the match.

The stories people cook up to justify bad behaviour, poor teamplay or acting the victim is always astounding.

[CFC Conky]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 December 2024 - 11:39 AM, said:

There are few constants in the universe. One is the imminent appearance of an MWO thread stating brawling is underpowered.

Or that light mechs are OP.