120 replies to this topic

[plodder]

}{avoc, on 04 January 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Anyone who wines about a "dishonourable" tactic has handicapped themselves and either refuses to adapt or doesn't even know it.


Like in MW4 with people who stripped all armour from their legs and rear and then complained that they kept getting legged. If I can take out a heavy/assault 'Mech in 10 seconds by shooting the legs, why would I waste time and ammo shooting for the torso?

Similar things happened in MW2 with people whining about headshots after taking a chassis that was well known to have that vulnerability (Gladiator/Executioner).
If you intentionally take something that has a disadvantage, you can't whine when a good player knows and exploits that vulnerability. It's not "dishonourable", it's tactics.

Knowing an enemy's weakness and not taking advantage of it sounds like Clanner talk to me.

That is entirely different. That is mech lab gone a muck for fun. Limiting leg armor to gain more weapons,better engine etc. you are right about that. but you are wrong if the game creates a weakness that "is" the weak link. Hit points in the previous games were way too big in the legs, budgets or tech problems probably are the reason for that.

So if the game has a weakness to a hack, is that ok too? to not attack a weakness?

Thanks uncle danno

Edited by plodder, 04 January 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[CaveMan]

MW3 1.0 and MW2 Mercs had the worst legging problems. Losing a single leg was death (in mercs you just fell on your face, but your rear armor was exposed, you couldnt shoot back, and you pretty much died after that), and the legs were easy to destroy due to bigger hitboxes and having less armor than the center torso.

Having single-leg destruction be lethal is bad, if it becomes an easy button. But if you make legs not be critical to survival, people will just strip their leg armor. Double-edged sword.

Of course they patched MW3 and made it so that legging was no longer a killshot. But then LRM boating became the easy kill, because missiles auto-tracked the center torso. You can't win, people will always find the cheapest tactics and then exploit them.

All you can really do is figure out which tactics are super-broken and tweak those so the entire game doesn't revolve around them.

[juxstapo]

verybad, on 02 January 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

If I hear anyone crying about legging in the new game unless they are validly easy to kill a mech by specifically firing at them, I will do my damnedest to grief that player to actual tears.

Lol. if it works it works. I'm a Looooooow tier player on MW4 right now, but I happily leg like a mow foe.

Edited by juxstapo, 04 January 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Omigir]

anything can be considered 'dishonorable' if some one dose not like it. The pope even outlawed the crossbow for crying out loud.

[Rathverge]

I love leg damage, but I always hated taking a alpha of UAC 20's and watching it fall off as I round a corner... There should just be damage and then from there you have to take out head/core/whatever.

[ChapeL]

I have no problem with people aiming for a Mech's legs. Where I have a problem is something Mechwarrior 4 introduced. Once your mech was "legged" it hobbled around, which was fine in itself. ( the alternative being Mech death à la MW3 or falling on your face à la MW2 Mercenaries) Where I draw the line is when shooting at the crippled leg transfers damage to the Center Torso and kills the mech.

So in short, no problem with legging (if you are good enough a shot to do it more power to you) ... one the other hand, I have strong reservations about the way the after effects were handled in previous games.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Bull Frog, on 05 January 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

I have no problem with people aiming for a Mech's legs. Where I have a problem is something Mechwarrior 4 introduced. Once your mech was "legged" it hobbled around, which was fine in itself. ( the alternative being Mech death à la MW3 or falling on your face à la MW2 Mercenaries) Where I draw the line is when shooting at the crippled leg transfers damage to the Center Torso and kills the mech.

So in short, no problem with legging (if you are good enough a shot to do it more power to you) ... one the other hand, I have strong reservations about the way the after effects were handled in previous games.

I agree with this +1

[Mercious]

What I would like to see is levels of damage on legs.

Lets face it the games in the past couldn't do justice to legging. As seen in the trailer of Mech Warrior 3. The Vulture gets leg damage and is hobbleing.

If a leg was "easy" to break but not so easy to shoot off I will be a happy camper. It should be a major handicap. Not a nessicarily winning move.

Do I have a problem with the Tactic? No. And anyone who claims otherwise should hang their heads in shame. In a battle there is no fair, just a victor and a dead man.If you want to lesson your leg armor to get more speed/firepower, prepare to deal with the results.

[Pht]

"Legging" only becomes a problem where an MW game is setup such that you can "get whatever you want" when targeting, fps style, vs. doing it like the lore; where you're piloting a 'mech, not a ... gun (or pile thereof).

Point being, unless you're aiming at an immobile target, 'mechs, while supremely capable of connecting with a target, aren't the best at getting all their weapons to hit "a single pixel."

Insta-gib leg/headshot fest vs a bit of thought and some intense yet epic battles.

[Liam]

I would like to see some kind of mixed solution, ... where:

1. critical hit to internal structure causes decrease in movement ability (something with linear behavior)
2. destroyed internal leg structure causes limited mobility (same as in MW4)
3. further damage on leg to internal structure will rip the leg of. Mech falls down and can still shoot depending on position, angle of arms, line of sight etc.

To prevent people to strip armor from legs, there should be a chance or modifier which makes damage transfer to internal structure (maybe RNG based). However a better sectioning of damage model and of mechs hit boxes would lead to better solution (I don't think it will happen in this game)

Edited by Liam, 06 January 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

First, the issue even exists because we have insta-hit 100% coverging fire. You can head shot, leg, lop off weapons, and core a single panel of armor far easier than it would in the lore.. especially at long range with PPC, ERLL, LG, Arrows, etc.. If you are defending your right to leg with impunity at 800M then you are a spoiled fps shooter kid who hasn't embrace the realistic complexities of targeting in a simulation... especially a BT sim.

Conversely, if you take off all your leg armor then I have no sympathy for you if you legged like a whining noob. People would be fools to not take advantage of that... especially honor-observing players whose sense of honor you are abusing.

Finally, like it or not Honor *is* a part of Battletech. Doesnt mean you have to get all bushido about it but this game will be the most canon of any BT video game. People should be allowed to observe whatever degree of honor they want. If youre here only to frag and not get into any of the BT flavor then I feel sorry for you. Its not just a game system, its a universe as large or larger than Star Wars or Star Trek.

To the devs: The BT-based rules and the actual game mechanics should tow the line. You cant make it easy to leg, easy to boat and expect players to limit themselves and honor BT lore. People *will* use them and then everyone will have to in order to compete. If the implied rules are meant to simulate BT combat then please have the mechanics limit players to BT configs, tactics, and capabilities (as much as possible).

Edited by LakeDaemon, 06 January 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

As for how legging is handled in game play mechanics, I liked how MW4 did the leg dragging thing. I believe that's how it would probably be since the actuators would automatically lock into place if they lose power. As for mechs blowing up if the leg is fully destroyed, that was just a way to finally finish the round and let people respawn while also giving the other guy the kill. It would be better maybe if the mech fell over and smoked heavily letting the pilot respawn rather than every kill resulting in a core breach.

This works for the lame suicide and splashing tactic too. It should fall over thunderously smoking and burning.. not explode in most cases. Core breach maybe 2% of the time.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 06 January 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Pht]

LakeDaemon, on 06 January 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

As for how legging is handled in game play mechanics, I liked how MW4 did the leg dragging thing. I believe that's how it would probably be since the actuators would automatically lock into place if they lose power.

Actually, 'mechs loose speed when their lower actuators are busted, when their hip gets hit, the leg "Freezes" in place, making the mech shuffle ... second hip shot freezes up both legs and you're immobile.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Pht, on 06 January 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Actually, 'mechs loose speed when their lower actuators are busted, when their hip gets hit, the leg "Freezes" in place, making the mech shuffle ... second hip shot freezes up both legs and you're immobile.

Thanks. Even better.

[sheradin]

make so that if you leg a mech it doesnt auto blow up most human shaped mechs can still fight with only one leg not going to be super moble but they can still fight if they choose too

[sheradin]

as for core breaches according to the tt rules core impoldes not explodes so there should not be any splash damge

[per4mer]

3 suggestions:

1. Make leg armor based on location so a leg's armor depending on the mech has different strengths and weaknesses. For example a mech can have initially relatively strong front leg armor, slightly weaker rear leg armor and vulerable side armor. Or perhaps a catapault's legs are nearly indestructible because if it gets destroyed it topples over. I would love to see a setup that for every strength there is a weakness.

2. A destroyed leg shouldnt destroy a mech, that was always a pet peeve of mine. I want them to implement an eject system for disabled mechs. To have huge explosions based on leg damage, when nothing explosive is near the legs kills the immersion for me. So if your mech has a revolving torso, its easier to blow off a leg, if losing a leg renders your mech completely useless, it is more difficult to blow off a limb bit forces the pilot to eject.

3. Long and meduim range weapons normally require a weapon lock, make it so that it is not possible to lock on to a mech's legs, make legging manual and disable certain weapons from firing without a lock. That way legging requires skill and becomes a difficult, yet rewarding srtategy.

Edited by per4mer, 07 January 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Mchawkeye]

per4mer, on 07 January 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

3 suggestions:

1. Make leg armor based on location so a leg's armor depending on the mech has different strengths and weaknesses. For example a mech can have initially relatively strong front leg armor, slightly weaker rear leg armor and vulerable side armor. Or perhaps a catapault's legs are nearly indestructible because if it gets destroyed it topples over. I would love to see a setup that for every strength there is a weakness.

2. A destroyed leg shouldnt destroy a mech, that was always a pet peeve of mine. I want them to implement an eject system for disabled mechs. To have huge explosions based on leg damage, when nothing explosive is near the legs kills the immersion for me. So if your mech has a revolving torso, its easier to blow off a leg, if losing a leg renders your mech completely useless, it is more difficult to blow off a limb bit forces the pilot to eject.

3. Long and meduim range weapons normally require a weapon lock, make it so that it is not possible to lock on to a mech's legs, make legging manual and disable certain weapons from firing without a lock. That way legging requires skill and becomes a difficult, yet rewarding srtategy.

Uh, what weapons require a lock? streakSRM is the only weapon I know of that cannot be fired without lock....possibly artillery and what not...but otherwise, the majority of weaponry does not require a lock...

[BattleBadger]

It is a valid tactic and it is a pet peeve of mine to hear someone cry about someone else legging. One of the main reasons i stopped playing was bcuz everyone threatened to kick anyone else off the server bcuz of legging. I usually don't aim for the legs, but if a particular day I feel leggy, I have the right to shoot where ever I want...

[Maven]

Leg targeting should be allowed. (remember in the tabletop game you can still attack while prone)

Additionally, this is why you make use of cover and partial cover to protect your vulnerable areas.

Maven