120 replies to this topic

[Vulpesveritas]

Petroff Northrup, on 11 January 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

taking out a side torso or arm will not leave your mech flat on it's back and unable to provide any real aid in battle, taking out a leg can do that far too easily, especially when dealing with close to canon armor levels.

Yes but the side torso isn't constantly in motion by any semi-competent pilot nor is it a small, hard-to-hit area.

[Zervziel]

What do the experts say about shooting things? Go for center mass. Less likely to miss. Works to a degree with battlemechs. It's easier to just aim for the torso than the arms or legs in some cases. However there are exceptions. I'd be rather concerned if someone could miss a Fafnir or an Atlas's legs.

Edited by Zervziel, 11 January 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[Petroff Northrup]

Legs on a mech are not small or hard to hit, it is why legging has always been considered a problem.

[Vulpesveritas]

It's harder to hit than the torso so long as you're moving and not in something like an assault.
Have you tried hitting the legs on an uller?

[Felbombling]

I think I've come up with a pretty good solution to this...

The problem with the legs on a Mech are the fact that they, in the table top game, had specific chances to take damage from incoming weapon fire. A roll of 5 or 9 on 2d6 would indicate a leg hit on the front damage chart, for example. In a combat sim, though, you have reticle targetting, with players expecting their weapon strikes to hit exactly where their aiming reticle indicates. Generally you see this result with seven laser beams converging on one spot in games like MW4 or MW:LL. The main problem is that the table top game doesn't really mesh well with a sim for the above reason. When you're playing a table top game, and you're faced with 'to hit' numbers before you start rolling dice, you envision your Mechwarrior gaining a target lock and just being happy that they've actually hit the target, based on the 2d6 roll utcome. Where the weapon actually connects is purely random. The different hit location determination rolls spread damage over the Mech during the course of the game, and the maximum potential armour values on the Mechs reflected those percentage chances for hits per location. Many Mechs came stock without maximum armour protection on many damage locations, which is ok in table top Battletech, but almost asking for trouble in a sim. So, given that the game designers want to stick pretty close to the table top version, but mesh the game well with this simulation environment, I think the best thing to do would be as follows...

Separate the leg into two damage boxes... thigh and shin/foot. Place the hip and upper leg actuator in the thigh damage location, and place the lower leg, foot and the two extra bottom slots for equipment into the shin damage location. Give each segment the same potential armour values as the canon Mech design rules would allow. This way, even if a leg is targetted during game play, there is still some variation as to where the strike will land, thus extending the life expectancy of the limb in a sim environment, while sticking pretty close to the table top canon.

[Petroff Northrup]

Vulpesveritas, on 11 January 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

It's harder to hit than the torso so long as you're moving and not in something like an assault.
Have you tried hitting the legs on an uller?

I have actually tried hitting the leg of an Uller just a day or two ago to teach a legger with a gauss rifle a lesson in MWLL, it was very easy to do in my harasser and I only needed like 3 light gauss shots and my mgs to leg him, and that is with misses due to both of us going full speed most of the fight as he tried fleeing when my first shot dealt noticeable damage to his left leg.

StaggerCheck, on 11 January 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

I think I've come up with a pretty good solution to this...

The problem with the legs on a Mech are the fact that they, in the table top game, had specific chances to take damage from incoming weapon fire. A roll of 5 or 9 on 2d6 would indicate a leg hit on the front damage chart, for example. In a combat sim, though, you have reticle targetting, with players expecting their weapon strikes to hit exactly where their aiming reticle indicates. Generally you see this result with seven laser beams converging on one spot in games like MW4 or MW:LL. The main problem is that the table top game doesn't really mesh well with a sim for the above reason. When you're playing a table top game, and you're faced with 'to hit' numbers before you start rolling dice, you envision your Mechwarrior gaining a target lock and just being happy that they've actually hit the target, based on the 2d6 roll utcome. Where the weapon actually connects is purely random. The different hit location determination rolls spread damage over the Mech during the course of the game, and the maximum potential armour values on the Mechs reflected those percentage chances for hits per location. Many Mechs came stock without maximum armour protection on many damage locations, which is ok in table top Battletech, but almost asking for trouble in a sim. So, given that the game designers want to stick pretty close to the table top version, but mesh the game well with this simulation environment, I think the best thing to do would be as follows...

Separate the leg into two damage boxes... thigh and shin/foot. Place the hip and upper leg actuator in the thigh damage location, and place the lower leg, foot and the two extra bottom slots for equipment into the shin damage location. Give each segment the same potential armour values as the canon Mech design rules would allow. This way, even if a leg is targetted during game play, there is still some variation as to where the strike will land, thus extending the life expectancy of the limb in a sim environment, while sticking pretty close to the table top canon.

This idea I love, splitting up the hitboxes into just 2 per leg would likely greatly help with people legging as you cannot hit the same armor so consistently.

[Vulpesveritas]

Petroff Northrup, on 12 January 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I have actually tried hitting the leg of an Uller just a day or two ago to teach a legger with a gauss rifle a lesson in MWLL, it was very easy to do in my harasser and I only needed like 3 light gauss shots and my mgs to leg him, and that is with misses due to both of us going full speed most of the fight as he tried fleeing when my first shot dealt noticeable damage to his left leg.



This idea I love, splitting up the hitboxes into just 2 per leg would likely greatly help with people legging as you cannot hit the same armor so consistently.

1. Well you just said you missed two times. 33% hit chance, compared to what, like 90% for torso?
2. I would rather a dual layer hitbox, triangular hitboxes around the entire mech for armor, then have the skeletal chassis structure's individual parts have it's own hitbox, underneath the armor. Realism and the like. That way A: you have to take out the armor first B: after the armor is gone you'd have to shoot the hole. and C: Rendering simplicity for each hitbox, though the actual 'appearance" could vary depending on weapon and how man nearby hitboxes are hit as well.

[Petroff Northrup]

Vulpesveritas, on 12 January 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

1. Well you just said you missed two times. 33% hit chance, compared to what, like 90% for torso?
2. I would rather a dual layer hitbox, triangular hitboxes around the entire mech for armor, then have the skeletal chassis structure's individual parts have it's own hitbox, underneath the armor. Realism and the like. That way A: you have to take out the armor first B: after the armor is gone you'd have to shoot the hole. and C: Rendering simplicity for each hitbox, though the actual 'appearance" could vary depending on weapon and how man nearby hitboxes are hit as well.

i missed once with my light gauss and plenty with my MG as I was simply spraying at leg level, I fired a total of 3 light gauss rifle shots,with 2 hitting, though i see where the misunderstanding comes from, I legged Uler firing three shots and landing two, I am not even that good of a shot and was flying around at high speeds in a harasser, leg hitboxes are usually pretty large and take up a lot of space on a mech



Those legs look to be almost half the mech in terms of side hitbox and almost as much from the front or back. I would certanly like to see a very indepth hitbox system like you said but is unlikely to be very feasible while simplying turning the legs into 2 or 3 hitboxes each is much easier.

[Morashtak]

Absent a 'Mech Lab we'll see stock 'Mechs at the start. Agree with those that have said that if legging becomes a problem identified in reviewing matches then the devs can make legs harder to hit, more robust or a combo of both.

Don't have the twitch capabilities for leg shots myself but if you do, and you're infamous for it, then when we're facing off against each other you can be sure I'm jumping in a lake, running into a treeline or scooting behind the nearest hill. There's always a good defense for any offense.

[Vulpesveritas]

Bah who needs any of it. Gimme an Uller and a ER PPC or a light gauss or a pair of AC-2s with pulse lasers as secondary weapons and I'll snipe and run forever. Try coming after me after I've shot a hole through your cockpit.

[Spooky]

Nothing inherently wrong with leg targetting imho. MW4 and MWLL moved or are moving in the right direction in that regards.

[Wraith 1]

Not even the Clan rules of Zellbrigen say anything about not legging 'mechs IIRC, I don't even generally worry about my legs when I'm fighting, it's the CT that I'm keeping track of...

[Sergei Segiovich]

Along time ago in a very different sort of online btech game a very valid strategy involved kicking your opponent. Tonnage/5 to a leg crippled a foe really quick.

[Felicitatem Parco]

If you want to play Tall, Legged Armored Vehicle Warrior, then you should expect to get shot in the legs.

If you want to play a game where you don't get shot in the legs, then don't play Tall, Legged Armored Vehicle Warrior; go play something like Armored Ground Vehicle Warrior or Armed Aircraft Warrior.

[Rabbit Blacksun]

hmm I typically use a long range mech long bow, catapault, mad cat, and relying on what are termed "boats" you get used to the fact that you are going to die, either some light is gunna run in an gank you from behind or your not gunna be able to nock out that assault that just keeps lumbering towards you.

For those who are experianced with boats, or even lights, the leg shot is really the only tactic you have, your sm laser isnt going to do crap to an atlas or a hvy half the time it will only **** off a medium. So for us leg shots are our best bet, telling me that legging is dihonorable is all well an good, but when thats your only tactically viable option its what your gunna do.

Now I am not gunna target your legs at max range with a twin spread of LRM 20's im gunna go for the torso. I think legging is just as much an option as say that jenner coming in behind a target and destroying their back armor. its a tactic, now if your in an atlas and target legs thats a bit lame since you go the fire power to shred most mechs center torso with relititive ease

[plodder]

Petroff Northrup, on 11 January 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Legs on a mech are not small or hard to hit, it is why legging has always been considered a problem.

You are rong. So rong, it cannot even be spelled right to convey how un right you are.

In the books, what all mechs are based on, it is not easy. To glancing hit yes, to solid hit no.

Think of real life physics, not the games you have played.

[Listless Nomad]

plodder, on 19 January 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

You are rong. So rong, it cannot even be spelled right to convey how un right you are.

In the books, what all mechs are based on, it is not easy. To glancing hit yes, to solid hit no.

Think of real life physics, not the games you have played.

I concur..in real life. The books worked on a system similar to what Vulpes described above - which would be the best and most realistic - but also most difficult to do. I agree with what has been proposed recently. Make the legs have more hit boxes, plain and simple. If as a mech pilot you can leg a mech running full speed in the exact same spot enough times to disable it - you deserve to take it out.

Alternatively - I do think that if you sever the leg from a mech it should topple over - but have the pilot eject and just leave the mech sitting there as a obstacle. Much better than a fusion explosion and the joy of being able to look out over a battle field and see the smoking ruin of numerous mechs after a battle would make victory so much sweeter.

[Graphite]

Yeah, in BT you couldn't aim for a location without a TC, and even then it had a big penalty, but in MW("real life") it's actually not hard to hit the legs.

I would be happy with increased armour/reduced damage to the legs.

[CloudLevi]

Redburn, on 02 January 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Are legs part of the mech? You bet. If push comes to shove and it's him or me, I'm going to be targeting leg actuators. If I can hobble you, then I'm half way to victory because I've limited your mobility.

I remember back in MW2, a friend and I would jump into Kit Foxes and go hunting for those big heavies and assaults. We'd find'em and run around their legs just'a popping their knees till we brought down those haughty big boys.

Did they like it - nope, but it was and is legit tactics. I still think its so - I'm a Merc and I'm in for the money. I don't have time for "honor". I'll leave that for the houses and clans to worry about.

I'm a Clansman myself and as far as I have studied, there is NOTHING to be said for legging. Even Zellbrigen does not speak against legging. Any talk about legging and honor is nothing but artificial idiocy brought to the board by disgruntled gamers. None of it has the tiniest bit of meaning.

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

Tell me, is there anything on this list that even mentions legs? No. Legs are free game and so is the rear of a 'mech, you just can't INTENTIONALLY maneuver yourself behind a building (and perhaps behind the 'mech, as some or all 'mechs can see behind themselves and some can FIRE behind themselves).

Furthermore, Zellbrigen is by Batchall, which means that only if it is explicitly issued does it actually count.

[KJ Crow]

Legging should be legit but hopefully the mechanic will be handled sensibly... no of this 'Legged and die' rubbish.

Would like to see a combination of things suggested here... the Leg split into multiple locations with smaller Hit boxes... each section destroyed impedes movement in some way.... an LBX or scatter weapon would have the damage spread over all of the location in the leg, and direct fire weapons would have a % chance of totally destroying a part of the leg once internal structure hits 1%....that way legging is still a legit tactic for hobbling your enemy but it makes that final crippling blow a little harder to get?