185 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Don't misinterpret what I say. I don't say, that ER-LL Lights/Mediums are illegal. What I say, is that playing against 93% rating players, who can solo-kill half of enemies and solo-win match for his team - is illegal. No matter, what build he uses. Is it poptart Victor, ER-LL Cicada or some sort of Piranha. It's about matchmaker, not build. And I don't want to "learn" to counter anything. Because abuses/exploits can only be countered via abuses/exploits. Would game be fun, if everybody would play poptart or ER-LL Light/Medium? No. It's arms race, that can't be won.

Again. I don't want to say, that such tactics are illegal. They're legal. Finding smart tactics to become top player - is 100% legal, yeah. I just try to say, that player, who uses them, should only play against players, who also do it - not seal club players, who play normally. It's not normal, that street football player should play against Messi. It's not fun, you know.

Yeah. Players, doing what they want and abusing/exploiting mechanics - is cancer of any online game. Street baseball example is actually good one. Back in old days, when we were playing with our friends via LAN, they were sitting near you and you could always tell them not to abuse unfun tactics. Like "No AWP" rule in CS, because camping and point'n'click insta-deaths aren't fun. Or "No bunker" rule in HL1. Unfortunately we can't do the same in online games.

TL;DR Not having amateur league and pushing amateur players into pro league instead - is wrong and has always been. This is major reason, why online PVP games flop.

Situation is actually even worse. Majority is sacrificed to satisfy minority. Once game has already flopped - it's pro players, who don't have enough opponents to play with. And, you know what? It's their problem. Wanna play in amateur league? It's you, who should learn to be amateur. Not me, who should learn to be pro. Forget about your pro tactics. And till then you should sit in 30min queues.

Edited by MrMadguy, 28 December 2024 - 12:28 AM.

[Void Angel]

No one claimed that you said those legitimate builds were illegal. That is a lie. In the world of honest people, you've said many things like:

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2024 - 01:38 PM, said:

We shouldn't discuss each and every case of abusing/exploiting something, that leads to one single player outplaying 23 others. What we discuss here - is that it shouldn't happen in Tier 3/4. Matchmaking should protect us from such abuse. [emphasis added]

So, you claimed that the matchmaker is "not protecting you" from the "abuse" of people using good builds, and using tactics you dislike - and that one player using these "abusive" tactics can outperform the rest of both teams combined. You can try to pawn off the first lie as just your opinion, but the second is an obvious falsehood that just... boggles the mind. You are literally making up or repeating a lie in every post now.

And then there's this whopper:

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2024 - 11:51 PM, said:

Situation is actually even worse. Majority is sacrificed to satisfy minority. Once game has already flopped - it's pro players, who don't have enough opponents to play with. And, you know what? It's their problem. Wanna play in amateur league? It's you, who should learn to be amateur. Not me, who should learn to be pro. Forget about your pro tactics. And till then you should sit in 30min queues.

You're lazy. And because you are also spoiled, you feel entitled to your laziness because you believe that you (and only you) have the right to succeed at a complicated game without spending any effort. But you're also dishonest, and not smart enough to conceal it - because that up there? That tipped your hand. You know why the matchmaker is set up the way it is; you know that it's the best compromise available between skill separation and matchmaking - given that people want to play with their friends. Barring groups actually would damage the game and drive people away, but you don't care about that - you just want easy matches so that you can feel skilled without being skilled.

You're trying to manufacture moral high ground by claiming that the matchmaker (which would work fine with more players, even by your self-serving standards) is "why online games flop," but that's just another lie. You made that up to justify your sense of entitlement, but you've been told in this very thread that many online games have a similar matchmaker (or no skill-based matchmaking at all) and are still doing fine. The real reason MWO has declined (not flopped) is that Faction Warfare wasn't engaging enough to serve its intended role as a progression endgame - but don't let facts distract you from your self-absorbed claims of victimhood!

It takes a Very Special kind of mind to suggest that punishing players for being better than you choose to be is a viable solution to anything. It's just the rationalization of a spoiled, coddled child: "Those people who learned to play instead of throwing forum tantrums should have to wait a half an hour per match! Yeah! They should learn to be crappy players like me - punishing people for getting better as they play couldn't have any negative consequences!" You honestly just flat-out claimed that because you are lazy and don't want to play better, other players should be punished with half-hour wait times for getting into Tier 1. No game would survive implementing your suggestion that the top players be punished in this way.

Good news! There is an Amateur League! It's called Tier5! It's you who should learn to be amateur - until then, you should sit in matches with your betters and be farmed like you deserve. The matchmaker is working as it should - and as intended.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Arnetheus, on 27 December 2024 - 09:56 PM, said:

This was written on 18th^
Why this thread is still going on?

Because for some odd reason he has to finish the current event before finally quitting the game - but this time for real ... like the 2 or 3 times he wrote something to that effect before (and not just this year).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2024 - 11:51 PM, said:

TL;DR Not having amateur league and pushing amateur players into pro league instead - is wrong and has always been. This is major reason, why online PVP games flop.

I hate to break it to you, but some of the most successful PvP games actually had MORE relaxed matchmakers. One of which was Halo 2 where one of the developers from those days has actually been on record of saying SBMM has gone too far. Link

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2024 - 11:51 PM, said:

Yeah. Players, doing what they want and abusing/exploiting mechanics - is cancer of any online game.

Thanks for proving me right about my feeling. TL;DR if PGI found it to be cancer (like they did with poptarts), they would've done something about it. It honestly just sounds like you want a PvP game to placate your ego like a power fantasy PvE game would and that's just not how it works if you aren't willing to adapt to the way the game is actually played.

[Navid A1]

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2024 - 11:51 PM, said:

TL;DR Not having amateur league and pushing amateur players into pro league instead - is wrong and has always been. This is major reason, why online PVP games flop.

How many online PvP first person shooter games have you played to reach that conclusion?
Is it your first time seeing skilled players wipe half the enemy team to clutch a match in an online PvP game? That's why you think it should be illegal?
I think you first have to become familiar with the core concept of online PvP. Especially so in a game like MWO with complex mechanics and wide range of weapons and mech.

[Bassault]

MrMadguy, on 27 December 2024 - 01:38 PM, said:

Very good decisions? Significant amount of skill? Playing ER-LL boat is as no brain, as playing poptart. Good thing - not all such players are successful. While may be they farm their own score, they gimp their team in most cases. Because they sit 1000 meters away and it's easy to avoid their fire, while their team lacks one player. Not all of them are sneaky enough to solo-kill half of enemy team. I didn't make screenshot, but my last match today was very similar. I'm not sure, how many kills that guy farmed, but he killed 2-3 my teammates before being killed by me. Again, yeah. He was that ER-LL sniper, who was sitting on a top of hill for whole match and then started to run away from 5-6 enemy 'Mechs. Thanks god, he wasn't Light, so it was easy to catch him. And such guys think, that they're skillful, cuz they play their own Rambo style, while in realty they actually non-participate.

But it's offtopic. We shouldn't discuss each and every case of abusing/exploiting something, that leads to one single player outplaying 23 others. What we discuss here - is that it shouldn't happen in Tier 3/4. Matchmaking should protect us from such abuse. Otherwise it's pointless.

Poptarting is hard to aim with, and you need to have situational awareness to be constantly running away from enemies but close enough to deal damage. Er large gauss takes skill to aim but admittedly not to set up in the beginning of the match, but ERLL Gauss mechs are quite ****** in the current meta so I don't know why that has to be mentioned.

[pbiggz]

I think all of you are making the mistake of assuming madguy is going to respond honestly to anything you've said. He's going to deny his own positions, run to pick some new one, and then when the thread flips over to the next page, pretend he never did that and repeat.

Edited by pbiggz, 28 December 2024 - 10:56 PM.

[Void Angel]

Which is why I'm calling him out on those very things - but we're not arguing with him to change his mind. We're arguing to counteract the disinformation and lies he's peddling.

[sycocys]

This is a TDM game, literally the entire purpose of every drop is to farm kills, farm damage, affect wins. This has been the case since they removed R&R and removed alternative modes from the game by putting TDM rewards massively in front on the reward scale.

It's also something like 12 years old, currently a low population game and has had minimal gameplay development since beta. It's a miracle they haven't just completely opened the MM so they can let the remaining players ride it out with shorter drop times.

[RockmachinE]

pbiggz, on 28 December 2024 - 10:55 PM, said:

I think all of you are making the mistake of assuming madguy is going to respond honestly to anything you've said. He's going to deny his own positions, run to pick some new one, and then when the thread flips over to the next page, pretend he never did that and repeat.

ya'll making the mistake thinking he's not messing with you

[Void Angel]

He's not; he just wants validation. A sufficiently advanced troll, and all that, but I think we're dealing with a legitimate kook.

[MrMadguy]

Void Angel, on 28 December 2024 - 02:03 AM, said:

You're lazy. And because you are also spoiled, you feel entitled to your laziness because you believe that you (and only you) have the right to succeed at a complicated game without spending any effort.

This is my last post, so you don't have to answer. I just want to ask you to do just one thing. Look at my stats, then look at global stats and then answer just one question. Am I lazy? If I'm lazy, then what % of playerbase is also lazy? What % of playerbase should either L2P or quit this game? What % of playerbase would still play this game, if it would happen? Do you still think, your "git gut" argument is ok?

It's standard problem. Any player, who is worse than me - is bad player. Yeah? It works, if devs don't publish stats. But it doesn't work, if they do. Stats don't lie. What they show, is that it doesn't matter, what YOU think about other players. Game is made for it's playerbase. Otherwise it flops.

For me and for many other players situation is very simple. It's pointless to suffer from bad matches, if they will never pay off. And they will never pay off, if matchmaker won't protect players from them. It's pointless to drop to Tier 5, if you'd play against exactly the same players anyway. Right? Then it's pointless to even try.

Edited by MrMadguy, 29 December 2024 - 02:13 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 29 December 2024 - 01:31 PM, said:

This is my last post, so you don't have to answer. I just want to ask you to do just one thing. Look at my stats, then look at global stats and then answer just one question. Am I lazy? If I'm lazy, then what % of playerbase is also lazy? What % of playerbase should either L2P or quit this game? What % of playerbase would still play this game, if it would happen? Do you still think, your "git gut" argument is ok?

It's standard problem. Any player, who is worse than me - is bad player. Yeah? It works, if devs don't publish stats. But it doesn't work, if they do. Stats don't lie. What they show, is that it doesn't matter, what YOU think about other players. Game is made for it's playerbase. Otherwise it flops.

This is much to do about nothing. What is your actual point?

Are there some things that are better against lesser players, 100%. That's kind of always going to be a case in games, that said MechWarrior definitely doesn't help itself with some of the foundational issues it suffers from (issues of extremes, particularly around lights vs assaults), however those aren't fixable problems without pretty much redoing the game.

MrMadguy, on 29 December 2024 - 01:31 PM, said:

For me and for many other players situation is very simple. It's pointless to suffer from bad matches, if they will never pay off. And they will never pay off, if matchmaker won't protect players from them. It's pointless to drop to Tier 5, if you'd play against exactly the same players anyway. Right? Then it's pointless to even try.

You won't ever see protection regardless of tier 1/2s in your match or not, you are a below average player, no changes in matchmaker will save you and give you the validation you feel you deserve. The best chance you had was back when the population was huge and you didn't face as drastic of skill differences and/or back in 8v8 where players could sway matches single-handedly more easily.

[Void Angel]

MrMadguy, on 29 December 2024 - 01:31 PM, said:

This is my last post, so you don't have to answer.

Hallelujah! Except you've told that lie before... we'll see if your promises are any more honest than your arguments.

As for your "question," which you fondly believe to prop up support: I don't have to look at your stats, because I already did - and the answer is, "yes. Yes, Madguy, you are very lazy." It doesn't matter what your performance is relative to other players - because you are wrong to assume that you represent some kind of silent majority: that's another lie you tell in order to justify your laziness. You aren't lazy because you're still just barely above average according to Jarl's - after playing the game (at least off and on) for TEN YEARS. You're lazy because you refuse to use good builds, and put scare quotes around the word "learn" - then whine, and cry, and lie so that you can pretend the game is broken and the problem isn't you. The players below you might be lazy, or they might not; who knows, without talking to them? But arguing from silence by abusing stats will not help you here: you're being held accountable for what you said in this thread - and if you don't like having your feet held to the fire, you shouldn't have started the fire yourself, now should you?

The fact of the matter is that every argument you've presented has been wrong, revealing critical ignorance about everything from statistics to game design. You always try to run off to your bailey, but as soon as you think you can get away with it you hop right back over to your favorite mot: that matches where you lose are "bad matches," and it's the matchmaker's fault for not 'protecting' you from your own laziness and stubborn refusal to "learn." I'm not dismissively telling you to "git gud." That's a straw man, and you know it - but hey, maybe the forum needs a matchmaker to "protect" you from picking arguments you can't win. What I have told you is that the matchmaker isn't punishing you; and that if you want better match performances, there are things you can do to have that.

Each time anyone suggested that, you threw a fit; you don't want to learn - oh, I'm sorry, "learn" anything, or use good builds, or adapt to the world around you as though you were a sapient lifeform rather than an overly complex roombah. Well, so be it. You have chosen to be bad, and you will always be bad so long as you continue to make that choice - but don't think you're going to find validation here for your nonsense and dishonesty.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 December 2024 - 11:59 PM.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 29 December 2024 - 01:31 PM, said:

This is my last post, so you don't have to answer. I just want to ask you to do just one thing. Look at my stats, then look at global stats and then answer just one question. Am I lazy? If I'm lazy, then what % of playerbase is also lazy? What % of playerbase should either L2P or quit this game? What % of playerbase would still play this game, if it would happen? Do you still think, your "git gut" argument is ok?

It's standard problem. Any player, who is worse than me - is bad player. Yeah? It works, if devs don't publish stats. But it doesn't work, if they do. Stats don't lie. What they show, is that it doesn't matter, what YOU think about other players. Game is made for it's playerbase. Otherwise it flops.

For me and for many other players situation is very simple. It's pointless to suffer from bad matches, if they will never pay off. And they will never pay off, if matchmaker won't protect players from them. It's pointless to drop to Tier 5, if you'd play against exactly the same players anyway. Right? Then it's pointless to even try.

0% chance this is your last post, and other peoples stats are irrelevant. You are deeply pathologically lazy and entitled in the way you approach the game and its clear from how you communicate your expectations; You want to run your jank, never change any of your strategies, and you expect to win/never be matched with anyone who might make you lose.

You don't get to have those things in this game. Either you adapt or you lose. Since you won't adapt, that means you're lazy.

[Davegt27]

they always go after the poster that says something they don't like

so the game keeps moving along in the same direction

thank goodness for the new players

Edited by Davegt27, 31 December 2024 - 09:41 AM.

[Void Angel]

Riiight, it's just about dislike! Not facts, or good arguments, or anything! Not to mention he's trying to push new players away by lying about the matchmaker - nah, he's just being persectuted. His lashing out at people, advocating that better players be punished to appease him, believing that he should never have a bad match because he brought a bad build, and constant resort to sophistry had no bearing whatsoever in driving the arguments leveled against him.

/facepalm

[pbiggz]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2024 - 09:48 AM, said:

they always go after the poster that says something they don't like

so the game keep move along in the same direction

thank goodness for the new players

Informed opinions weigh far more than uninformed ones. OP has a record of crying crocodile tears. Frankly, so do you. If you're here to play the victim, find something better to do with your time.

[Davegt27]

pbiggz, on 30 December 2024 - 12:13 PM, said:

Informed opinions weigh far more than uninformed ones. OP has a record of crying crocodile tears. Frankly, so do you. If you're here to play the victim, find something better to do with your time.

go ahead attack me all you want but you still won't have a clue

mean while the game hovers around 1000 players

your savior the Caldron has not changed anything

[DoucheNugg3t]

I have been having a ton of fun, sure there is a few funky matches but overall a lot of us have a blast even with those dirty hippies last night ha ha