BlueDevilspawn, on 18 December 2024 - 12:15 AM, said:
There is no way to dynamically say "this person won in a stomp twice, so let's put them on the presumably worse team for the next match." I've already told you there's no agreed upon metric, and there is no way to implement such a feature anyway. Frankly, it sounds like you feel people should be divvied up wins evenly rather than fighting for it. I completely disagree, this is a first person shooter - shoot first, faster, more accurately, and from optimal position/range. No participation trophies.
On the other hand, in a game with a balanced matchmaker that could accurately place people based on their performance and had enough people to choose from, you'd get something pretty close to a 1.0 W/L ratio across the board except at the very extremes of the bell curve.
Slight correction - for some time now (think over a year) it's been possible to have up to 6 grouped players on one side.
4+2 and 3+3
Yes I'm serious.
foamyesque, on 18 December 2024 - 12:24 AM, said:
That's not entirely true: the matchmaker does have rules to restrict groups. So you'll never see more than a single group of four, or one group of three plus one group of two, on the same side. And it will also try to match groups against groups.
The matchmaker's pretty simplistic. If I understand correctly, it has effectively three buckets it uses to form matches: Tiers 1-3, Tiers 2-4, and Tiers 3-5.
So if you're in tier 5, the maximum tier you can see in a match is 3. If you're tier 4, it's 50/50 whether you're at the bottom of the tiers in a 2-4 match, or middling in a 3-5. If you're in T3, you can be in a 1-3 match, a 2-4 match, or a 3-5 match. In tier 2, a 1-3 or a 2-4 match. And in T1, you're in 1-3 matches exclusively.
This is why you often see surprisingly poor play in T1 matches: because, even before considering the massive skill difference between 'is in T1' and 'is a top percentile player of the game', a significant chunk of those players are likely not in tier 1 at all, because the match is actually a T1-3 match.. A similar effect, inverted, also applies: if you see someone performing surprisingly well in a T5 match it is probably because they aren't actually T5 -- because the match is actually a T3-5 match.
It's not a great system, but understanding what it's actually doing can help with the frustration. Fight your machine as best you can, understand why sometimes you're feeling like the hero and other times why apparently everybody on the other team is an eagle-eyed aimbot, and let the numbers take care of themselves.
You can complete the events at any tier.
Plenty of pvp fps games continually struggle with matchmaker problems even with larger populations and far more resources. Some have said "screw it" and done away with matchmaker entirely and just go with lobby creation.
Point is PGI is not alone in this nor the worst of those out there. It's a fps shooter industry wide issue.
foamyesque, on 18 December 2024 - 12:27 AM, said:
On the other hand, in a game with a balanced matchmaker that could accurately place people based on their performance and had enough people to choose from, you'd get something pretty close to a 1.0 W/L ratio across the board except at the very extremes of the bell curve.
BlueDevilspawn, on 18 December 2024 - 12:32 AM, said:
Slight correction - for some time now (think over a year) it's been possible to have up to 6 grouped players on one side.
4+2 and 3+3
Yes I'm serious.
Really? Huh. I'd missed that announcement, if it was announced. Can't say I've noticed matches with six grouped players either, although it's sometimes hard to tell who is grouped. Wish the post-game scores could identify 'em somehow.
Edited by foamyesque, 18 December 2024 - 12:35 AM.
Again. You haven't provided any links to prove your statements. And as I can't find any further announcements, then I can safely assume, that we still have 3rd iteration of MM - JayZ zero-sum PSR, that is exactly the same as previous PSR exp-bar one, except it's zero-sum, so it takes dynamic nature of skill into account.
But thanks for clarification. Indeed, I can't find any explicit information, that PSR even tries to balance teams, while it's super-obvious solution. Even if PSR ratings aren't accurate representation of players' skills, but at least Tiers are. Not performing any team balancing according to PSR - is suicide. I have been playing broken game for all those years. So, I guess, it's better to just do what other players do. To quit.
Again. You haven't provided any links to prove your statements. And as I can't find any further announcements, then I can safely assume, that we still have 3rd iteration of MM - JayZ zero-sum PSR, that is exactly the same as previous PSR exp-bar one, except it's zero-sum, so it takes dynamic nature of skill into account.
It's simple. If you play well you get green arrow. Play poorly and you get red arrow. It isn't rocket science. Consider asking for advice or builds from those who are successful. Maybe your hardware is the problem, you might need to do some investigating.
Hello friends, it seems like we need our semi-annual reminder, especially OP, that the matchmaker exists to pair you up against appropriately skilled players so that you neither win, nor lose constantly. Its a nearly impossible goal, and all things considered, MWO is doing it remarkably well.
This thread essentially exists for two reasons;
first, MWO exposes your tier/PSR rating to players. This means players like OP, consciously or, most often unconsciously, view the arrow and your tier rating as a reward. PSR exists solely for matchmaking purposes and I have always maintained that you should not be able to see it. The up or down arrow you get at the end of the match is always good for you. It means the system is making changes to improve the quality of your next match based on the people available in the queue for you to match against. If you're frequently getting your *** handed to you, you want the arrow to go down, but since people have egos and there is a direct link between personal performance and the direction of that arrow, its visibility means any time it goes down when a player wasn't expecting it to, it feels like punishment. Its even coloured red to look like punishment. Its all a little backwards.
The second reason is that players like OP, who may have cut their teeth on the older PVE mechwarrior games, have always implicitly expected MWO to be an experience like that; in a PVE game its ok to win forever; in fact, that's exactly what you want to do. But in a PVP game, you can't win forever. Sometimes you have to lose. Other people get a turn to win too. That's a bridge too far for OP, whose words frequently suggest that he expects his wins to come no matter what he personally does, and that any time he loses, its the actions of malicious third parties (devs, competitive players, cheaters, etc, whoever happens to be an available villain at the time) that make him lose.
The TLDR of this is OP might say he doesn't care about wins and losses but he does, and he expects to have his wins no matter what he does, and any other details or externalities are not really anything he's going to take seriously. We've seen these threads before from many people and they all boil down to the same thing.
Though I'd add, the reason people see PSR increases as a reward is that they view Tier 1 as a goal. People want to be good at the games they play, and attaining Tier 1 is a way to do that. That's why progress or regress is colored the way that it is; the problems come up when people are unwilling to do the things that are required to be effective (and thus rise in PSR) - or else want non-meta tactics and builds to be competitive in upper tier rankings. So I can see where you're coming from when you recommend hiding PSR from players, but I think the problem would persist even if that were the case.
BlueDevilspawn, on 18 December 2024 - 12:15 AM, said:
There is no secondary matchmaker, which would be the balance mechanism. There isn't even an agreed upon metric to use to balance. Cauldron has a couple of proposed solutions BUT
Any balance adjustments to the matchmaker specifically require coding resources, which will not be available from PGI. They are all assigned to MW5 Clans
Absent groups I think I'd just do something extremely simple: Sort everybody in the match by PSR (it's flawed but it's what the MM is already using), and then assign them 1A 2B 3B 4A 5A 6B etc until you have the two full teams.
Easy to understand and easy to implement, and avoids the systematic bias of simple alternating. It has flaws, but it would be a dramatic step towards avoiding the stacked-team issue. Groups complicate it a bit, especially with uneven numbers, but you'd do them first as the MM already does, and then apply the snake draft to whomever remains. I think it'd be pretty workable and you'd no longer have 1-3 matches where all the T3s wind up on one team and multiple top percentile folks on the other. Think it'd make everyone happier except maybe the sealclubber types.
It's simple. If you play well you get green arrow. Play poorly and you get red arrow. It isn't rocket science. Consider asking for advice or builds from those who are successful. Maybe your hardware is the problem, you might need to do some investigating.
Your explanation is correct.
However, there is a small problem: MrMadguy is not asking for advice, explanation or anything else. What you are reading is his regular whinning thread. When offered in his previous whinning threads, he refused or ignored any advice. He said that he does not need any.
He is also not some new player - he said that he has been playing MWO since Beta.
To put it simply, he wants to keep running his assault 'Mechs and/or using his tactics. But if we consider that PSR is keep moving him lower and lower, then obviously his current builds and gameplay are bad even for Tier 4.
I would not be surprised if he ends up in Tier 5 eventually. We will see if he is capable of learning before he ends up in Tier 5.
Hello friends, it seems like we need our semi-annual reminder, especially OP, that the matchmaker exists to pair you up against appropriately skilled players so that you neither win, nor lose constantly. Its a nearly impossible goal, and all things considered, MWO is doing it remarkably well.
This thread essentially exists for two reasons;
first, MWO exposes your tier/PSR rating to players. This means players like OP, consciously or, most often unconsciously, view the arrow and your tier rating as a reward. PSR exists solely for matchmaking purposes and I have always maintained that you should not be able to see it. The up or down arrow you get at the end of the match is always good for you. It means the system is making changes to improve the quality of your next match based on the people available in the queue for you to match against. If you're frequently getting your *** handed to you, you want the arrow to go down, but since people have egos and there is a direct link between personal performance and the direction of that arrow, its visibility means any time it goes down when a player wasn't expecting it to, it feels like punishment. Its even coloured red to look like punishment. Its all a little backwards.
The second reason is that players like OP, who may have cut their teeth on the older PVE mechwarrior games, have always implicitly expected MWO to be an experience like that; in a PVE game its ok to win forever; in fact, that's exactly what you want to do. But in a PVP game, you can't win forever. Sometimes you have to lose. Other people get a turn to win too. That's a bridge too far for OP, whose words frequently suggest that he expects his wins to come no matter what he personally does, and that any time he loses, its the actions of malicious third parties (devs, competitive players, cheaters, etc, whoever happens to be an available villain at the time) that make him lose.
The TLDR of this is OP might say he doesn't care about wins and losses but he does, and he expects to have his wins no matter what he does, and any other details or externalities are not really anything he's going to take seriously. We've seen these threads before from many people and they all boil down to the same thing.
No. I don't want to always have green arrow or wins. What I actually want - red arrow to actually do something. For me proper MM - is what compensates bad matches via good ones. Bad matches make sense in this case. Because they lead to good ones. When matchmaker is disfunctional - you get non-stop stream of bad matches, that lead your PSR to drop lower and lower, but it doesn't actually mean anything, cuz matches don't become better.
This is also unfair, because while you have stream of bad matches, some Tier 1s get super-good matches due to MM allowing seal clubbing instead of fair fighting.
What I suspect - is completely wrong team balancing algorithm. First MM grabs players from Tier 4. When it can't assemble full 24 players match - it grabs extra players from higher Tiers. And just does super-mega-stupid thing - pads 2nd team via them. So, one team is always gimped. And only question is - which one is yours. That's where things become even worse. Because when your PSR is relatively high - you can float between two teams depending on other factors, such as time of the day. But when your rating is low - one thing happens, that is completely opposite to how MM should work. You always end up in losing team.
Simple measure to fix this problem: balance teams according to PSR. One Tier 1 goes to one team, one Tier 1 goes to another. Just grabbing 24 players from 4 Tiers due to release valves and then just splitting them between 2 teams without any balancing - is suicide for this game.
MM in this game is still designed around faulty assumption, that experience = skill, so only thing it needs to do - is to separate noobs from pros. So, I'm somehow expected to carry noobs, who fire all dmg at walls, against Tier 1 pros. It doesn't work this way. Experience is dynamic thing, while skill is static. Plus skill can involve many factors, that don't depend on player himself. How good your PC is? What FPS do you have? How good is your mouse? How about your ping?
There is no "when matchmaker is dysfunctional" - it literally is too simple to act any differently.
It doesn't stack the best players in a lobby in a programmed way, that's pure RNG/luck.
It sounds like you (at least) have bad luck, and referring again to the simplistic nature of the matchmaker, it will not compensate you by stacking good players with you in the next match. It doesn't owe you anything.
What you keep moaning (amongst other things) about is called secondary matchmaker for lobby balancing.... which is not happening without coding resources.
PSR is not an experience bar... and noobs vs. pros is not a proper comparison. First of all, Tier 1 does not equate to pros, full stop. Secondly, longevity in the game does not equate to "git gud" experience - there are people with over 50k games played in MWO who are perpetually tier 5. Those 50k games merely reinforced mediocrity and bad habits. I've seen plenty of noobs who come from other shooter games rise to tier 1 in a few weeks and play at a high level in comp.
Finally, nice try sneaking in a hackusation in your last "question".... I believe the mods are supposed to wipe those in the forums aren't they?
BlueDevilspawn, on 19 December 2024 - 12:09 AM, said:
There is no "when matchmaker is dysfunctional" - it literally is too simple to act any differently.
It doesn't stack the best players in a lobby in a programmed way, that's pure RNG/luck.
It sounds like you (at least) have bad luck, and referring again to the simplistic nature of the matchmaker, it will not compensate you by stacking good players with you in the next match. It doesn't owe you anything.
What you keep moaning (amongst other things) about is called secondary matchmaker for lobby balancing.... which is not happening without coding resources.
PSR is not an experience bar... and noobs vs. pros is not a proper comparison. First of all, Tier 1 does not equate to pros, full stop. Secondly, longevity in the game does not equate to "git gud" experience - there are people with over 50k games played in MWO who are perpetually tier 5. Those 50k games merely reinforced mediocrity and bad habits. I've seen plenty of noobs who come from other shooter games rise to tier 1 in a few weeks and play at a high level in comp.
Finally, nice try sneaking in a hackusation in your last "question".... I believe the mods are supposed to wipe those in the forums aren't they?
Bad luck happens. Barely having enough wins to complete event after 60 matches - isn't bad luck. It's obvious pattern.
No. I don't want to always have green arrow or wins. What I actually want - red arrow to actually do something. For me proper MM - is what compensates bad matches via good ones. Bad matches make sense in this case. Because they lead to good ones. When matchmaker is disfunctional - you get non-stop stream of bad matches, that lead your PSR to drop lower and lower, but it doesn't actually mean anything, cuz matches don't become better.
Because you are dropping lower and lower ... in Tier 4. The matchmaker makes no difference between a player who is one step from Tier 3 and a player who is one step from Tier 5. For the matchmaker it is the same Tier 4.
Dropping in Tier 5 will make the difference, if you get there.
MrMadguy, on 18 December 2024 - 11:26 PM, said:
MM in this game is still designed around faulty assumption, that experience = skill
What you wrote is untruth, plain and simple.
You can watch this fan video:
The linked video keeps being reposted again and again, and I am sure you watched it too.
MrMadguy, on 18 December 2024 - 11:26 PM, said:
so only thing it needs to do - is to separate noobs from pros.
The PSR based on the assumption that "experience = skill" existed in MWO between 2015-2020. Period. The current matchmaker compares your performance with other players after every single game. The player's experience is not a factor in that equation.
MrMadguy, on 18 December 2024 - 11:26 PM, said:
So, I'm somehow expected to carry noobs, who fire all dmg at walls, against Tier 1 pros.
No, you are not "somehow expected to carry noobs". You are just one Tier 4 player in the game. Matchmaker makes no difference between old Tier 4 players such as you and some new player who registered his account a week ago and has moved to Tier 4 since then.
MrMadguy, on 18 December 2024 - 11:26 PM, said:
Experience is dynamic thing, while skill is static.
No, you wrong.
Every player can work on his skill, if he wishes of course. Train gunnery skills. Improve piloting skills. Work on his map knowledge. Upgrade efficiency of his 'Mechs. etc. Even a fresh player with next to no experience can do that.
MrMadguy, on 18 December 2024 - 11:26 PM, said:
Plus skill can involve many factors, that don't depend on player himself. How good your PC is? What FPS do you have? How good is your mouse? How about your ping?
Even a quite old PC can run MWO sufficiently well. Even a cheap mouse works. Ditto for the rest. After all, all that is every single player's problem, nobody else's.
MrMadguy, on 18 December 2024 - 11:26 PM, said:
Do you use cheats?
Usual MWO forums hint that Tier 1 players are cheating?
The PSR based on the assumption that "experience = skill" existed in MWO between 2015-2020. Period. The current matchmaker compares your performance with other players after every single game. The player's experience is not a factor in that equation.
What I mean, is that we use nice zero-sum PSR, but it's used for what? To split whole playerbase into 5 Tiers, while ±2 can be matched together, so only use for this system - is to prevent Tier 4 from playing against Tier 1 (of course if release valves aren't open)? It's exact consequence of "experience = skill" design. Cuz if skill would mean anything - we would have "Find players with closest rating" system instead.
My 10 years of experience mean nothing. Because I will never play Meta. Never. Meta is boring. Meta removes choices. And any game is about choices. Otherwise it isn't game. Meta forces me to play certain way, that isn't fun for me.
I don't know, why I even play this game.
Look. I don't care about winning or losing. I just want to earn CBs to buy new 'Mechs and complete events. If matchmaking can't be fixed, then may be reward system should be fixed instead?
Yeah the matchmaker is broken and has been for some time. Upper tier dudes gobble up wins and earn stuff they dont need. New players are forced to spend money for hope or just be fodder until they leave the community. This is by design until the player base and sales drop off a cliff, which they are starting to do. why pair new players with tier 1 lifers who know the game inside and out? your murdering your own base.
59th match was first match, that was clean victory for my team. But my W/L is still 0.32, that is completely wrong and means some sort of matchmaking bias.
No, that means that you are the common factor in every failure you've experienced. This is literally your personal conspiracy theory that an inanimate object is persecuting you. Same with Fenrir's little rant; none of that is true - it's a giant load of road apples that demonstrates ignorance of game mechanics, marketing, economics, and basic critical reasoning. But with enough bias confirmation, you can make anything "prove" your conspiracy. It's not just you; Marx is famous for that in philosophy circles - but it's still bad thought, and the only reason people are even bothering to argue with you is to prevent people walking in on the conversation from mistakenly believing you know what you're talking about.
Ain't somewhat of a guarantee you'll be able to raise yer flag on top of every hill life will place in your way, but will certainly get you somewhere much more rewardable and fun than delusion-avenue.
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BlueDevilspawn, on 18 December 2024 - 12:15 AM, said:
