388 replies to this topic

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

well, luckily for me he seems to play during hours I can't so yippee I don't have to be carried across the finish line by his XL atlas

[Jelan]

1453 R, on 05 April 2025 - 04:50 AM, said:

Madguy doesn't necessarily feel like he belongs in any given tier. What he believes is that he's just a scrappy little ordinary guy who deserves to play against other Ordinary Guys, such that he gets a minimum of eight hundred damage and three kills in absolutely every single match he plays after they ALL come down to 12-11 nailbiters where he personally gets to be a team carrying superhero.

Madguy is not actually interested in fair and impartial matchmaking, despite what he vociferously claims. He, in fact, despises fair and impartial matchmaking. What he wants is for the game to feed him smashing victory after smashing victory, endlessly, without any effort invested on his part and regardless of what he's piloting or how much he's had to drink. He doesn't WANT to advance in tier because that would give him one less excuse to avoid owning his own suck with.

And this is the problem, if the MM worked better we would have many more close matches, yet we don't. Ultimately the MM needs more than 5 tiers as all Tier 1s arent equal. An LRM boat Tier 1 players is very different to a light pilot Tier 1 player in skill

[GreyNovember]

Jelan, on 08 April 2025 - 03:05 PM, said:

And this is the problem, if the MM worked better we would have many more close matches, yet we don't. Ultimately the MM needs more than 5 tiers as all Tier 1s arent equal. An LRM boat Tier 1 players is very different to a light pilot Tier 1 player in skill

As long as you're willing to wait for all theoretical filters to be processed and populate an acceptable match.

And make everyone else wait too, of course.

This also assumes Tier means anything other than "Consistently doing more damage compared to everyone else on average per match".

[Tarl Cabot]

Jelan, on 08 April 2025 - 03:05 PM, said:

And this is the problem, if the MM worked better we would have many more close matches, yet we don't. Ultimately the MM needs more than 5 tiers as all Tier 1s arent equal. An LRM boat Tier 1 players is very different to a light pilot Tier 1 player in skill

Since this game does not have respawn, a better "MM" would not see more close matches, those would still be rare, especially as the Tier increases. And those close matches would actually be considered pyrrhic victories, the team won but at the lost of almost all of the team. It means that one side or the other did not push, become more aggressive to take advantage at a critical moment or moments in the game.

Is it a computer game? Yes, but it is about destroying your opponent, not scoring points, being faster, stronger, etc. What is also missing is the damage received/mech health on the team tab. Many games were likely closer than the final total in kills, with many mech only a few points away from being toast, likely do to more spread damage and lack of more aimed shots.

Edit. Review games from previous MWO tourneys and how they ended. Different skill level players, with most of their mechs setup to compliment the others with a specific strategy, and working as a unit, drop calling for most, training how to use their strengths and cover their weaknesses. Many of those matches would not be considered a "close" match, simply due to the amount of aggression (pushes) when an opportunity opens up, and their shots tend to be more aimed than the general population.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 April 2025 - 06:40 PM.

[Void Angel]

Jelan, on 08 April 2025 - 03:05 PM, said:

if the MM worked better we would have many more close matches, yet we don't. Ultimately the MM needs more than 5 tiers as all Tier 1s arent equal. An LRM boat Tier 1 players is very different to a light pilot Tier 1 player in skill

That is simply not the case. You're correct that there is a large difference between normal Tier 1s and the top of that Tier. I'd also suggest that there's a similar gap between the average Tier 5 and the bottom - and there is a wide range of skill levels within Tiers 4-2 as well. But there are two problems with your position, here:

First, there's simply not enough population to make even one more Tier, much less two. Sequestering the truly top-tier players into their own Tier 0, or whatever, would effectively soft-ban them at certain parts of the day, and result in long wait times at all hours. This is literally punishing people for their mastery of the game. We would like to have a more expansive tier system, but it's just not possible with the number of people we have. This is pretty widely known in these discussions, but people often miss a subtler aspect when we talk about close matches, because the game's mechanics result in two related phenomena - snowballing, and a mismatch between how many 'mechs are alive at match end, and how much of the team is alive.

I'll tackle snowballing first. This is pretty straightforward; if I make a mistake early on and become crippled or destroyed, that hastens the destruction of my teammates. Imagine a match with totally identical teams, including 'mechs, builds and pilot accuracy: to abstract it, imagine that each 'mech can take twelve shots before dying (10dmg v. 120hp.) So, 120dmg in massed firepower v 1440 total durability on each side. Now, imagine that early in the match, I misunderstand where the enemy team is moving, and run around a corner into them. I get insta-murked, and now my team is down 10 points of firepower, which means that even both teams perfectly exchange peeking exposures, my team will be the next (by 10dmg) to lose a 'mech, reducing our firepower even further. The match outcome proceeds from there - and that's in a fantasy world of perfectly even accuracy that ignores the tactical impacts of being down a 'mech. So the game itself lends itself to lopsided kill counts, and that's the first thing to remember.

But notice I emphasized "kill counts," up there. I did that because the "score" doesn't always tell the whole story. I've had plenty of matches where there were five or six people chasing down one last enemy, and very often if you're spectating on the winning side you will see a lot of 'mechs with open structure and missing parts. And what do you do when you're one-touch damaged with guns left? You play more cautiously, trying to make the most of your limited durability reserves. Sometimes, a group of people screw up and get trashed together - maybe they camped out in Death Valley on Canyon Network, or insisted on splitting off into their own group and suffered defeat in detail. That happens, but a half-team of shambling zombie 'mechs one AC round away from the scrapyard also happen - and you simply cannot know which is which from the final kill score at match end.

So unfortunately, we can't separate the tiers any more than they already are; just not enough people. But on the plus side, matches aren't always as lopsided as people think - and in any case it is not because of some unspecified flaw in the matchmaker.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 April 2025 - 02:25 AM.

[CFC Conky]

I can't remember if it's been mentioned in this thread before, but given the low player population, time of day plays a huge role in match balance.

If I want a better shot at moving up in PSR, I'll play in the late morning or early evening based on my local time. During those times there are fewer stomps and I don't see any high-tier players that I recognize on either side.

Of course I can't always do that because, you know, life and if I play late in the evening the matches are much more stompy and I will often see players from the top units and/or pre-mades of high-tier players. I can see it clearly based on how they play, much more aggressively and with good aim and positioning compared to earlier in my day.

So, if one can only play when the population is really low, the MM may very well appear to be out to get you.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 09 April 2025 - 09:17 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

CFC Conky, on 09 April 2025 - 09:16 AM, said:

I can't remember if it's been mentioned in this thread before, but given the low player population, time of day plays a huge role in match balance.

If I want a better shot at moving up in PSR, I'll play in the late morning or early evening based on my local time. During those times there are fewer stomps and I don't see any high-tier players that I recognize on either side.

Of course I can't always do that because, you know, life and if I play late in the evening the matches are much more stompy and I will often see players from the top units and/or pre-mades of high-tier players. I can see it clearly based on how they play, much more aggressively and with good aim and positioning compared to earlier in my day.

So, if one can only play when the population is really low, the MM may very well appear to be out to get you.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

it gets kind of crazy to go from one extreme to another between 2 consecutive matches and then the second match marks the start of a streak of "oh look it's that dude and that dude and that dude too and yup end screen they posted insane numbers okay and MM does not seem to be shaking the bottle much between sips"

[BlueDevilspawn]

CFC Conky, on 09 April 2025 - 09:16 AM, said:

I can't remember if it's been mentioned in this thread before, but given the low player population, time of day plays a huge role in match balance.

If I want a better shot at moving up in PSR, I'll play in the late morning or early evening based on my local time. During those times there are fewer stomps and I don't see any high-tier players that I recognize on either side.

Of course I can't always do that because, you know, life and if I play late in the evening the matches are much more stompy and I will often see players from the top units and/or pre-mades of high-tier players. I can see it clearly based on how they play, much more aggressively and with good aim and positioning compared to earlier in my day.

So, if one can only play when the population is really low, the MM may very well appear to be out to get you.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

There's always a full spectrum of players in every timezone, but the general consensus is Oceanic has the smallest population and therefore widest variety in skill in a lobby. You'll see some wild builds/playstyles that are cannon fodder for Div A compies. EU timezone is most known for fast NASCAR. NA is most known for drunken "I'll do my thing" comms and quick deaths.

I jest but there's an element of truth.

Void Angel, on 09 April 2025 - 01:00 AM, said:

That is simply not the case. You're correct that there is a large difference between normal Tier 1s and the top of that Tier. I'd also suggest that there's a similar gap between the average Tier 5 and the bottom - and there is a wide range of skill levels within Tiers 4-2 as well. But there are two problems with your position, here:

First, there's simply not enough population to make even one more Tier, much less two. Sequestering the truly top-tier players into their own Tier 0, or whatever, would effectively soft-ban them at certain parts of the day, and result in long wait times at all hours. This is literally punishing people for their mastery of the game. We would like to have a more expansive tier system, but it's just not possible with the number of people we have. This is pretty widely known in these discussions, but people often miss a subtler aspect when we talk about close matches, because the game's mechanics result in two related phenomena - snowballing, and a mismatch between how many 'mechs are alive at match end, and how much of the team is alive.

I'll tackle snowballing first. This is pretty straightforward; if I make a mistake early on and become crippled or destroyed, that hastens the destruction of my teammates. Imagine a match with totally identical teams, including 'mechs, builds and pilot accuracy: to abstract it, imagine that each 'mech can take twelve shots before dying (10dmg v. 120hp.) So, 120dmg in massed firepower v 1440 total durability on each side. Now, imagine that early in the match, I misunderstand where the enemy team is moving, and run around a corner into them. I get insta-murked, and now my team is down 10 points of firepower, which means that even both teams perfectly exchange peeking exposures, my team will be the next (by 10dmg) to lose a 'mech, reducing our firepower even further. The match outcome proceeds from there - and that's in a fantasy world of perfectly even accuracy that ignores the tactical impacts of being down a 'mech. So the game itself lends itself to lopsided kill counts, and that's the first thing to remember.

But notice I emphasized "kill counts," up there. I did that because the "score" doesn't always tell the whole story. I've had plenty of matches where there were five or six people chasing down one last enemy, and very often if you're spectating on the winning side you will see a lot of 'mechs with open structure and missing parts. And what do you do when you're one-touch damaged with guns left? You play more cautiously, trying to make the most of your limited durability reserves. Sometimes, a group of people screw up and get trashed together - maybe they camped out in Death Valley on Canyon Network, or insisted on splitting off into their own group and suffered defeat in detail. That happens, but a half-team of shambling zombie 'mechs one AC round away from the scrapyard also happen - and you simply cannot know which is which from the final kill score at match end.

So unfortunately, we can't separate the tiers any more than they already are; just not enough people. But on the plus side, matches aren't always as lopsided as people think - and in any case it is not because of some unspecified flaw in the matchmaker.

Correct.... more tiers is not the way to solve MM. It merely partitions the SAME number of players into more tiers. Ultimately, the gates will come down to fill a lobby.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

BlueDevilspawn, on 09 April 2025 - 09:40 AM, said:

NA is most known for drunken "I'll do my thing" comms and quick deaths.

comms assessment accurate last night on multiple occasions except they also were sometimes backseat driving while sloshed

so Madguy plays at hours equivalent to 5pm American EST and I am guessing has the run of prime "just got off work/out of school, time to play game" hours

he has about as much of a best case scenario going as possible as near as I can see, player-pool-for-MM wise

[Jutneux]

This game is fun but the match maker and population make it pretty rough. The wild team swings are just not fun. Combined with waiting forever between matches, this game is such a time sink.

[Void Angel]

The matchmaker does not and cannot separate people according to their damage numbers, match score, etc - except as those metrics move them around in Tier. It's a format thing; we're not playing multiple rounds of Counterstrike here, where auto-rebalancing can just go down the scoreboard from top to bottom and assign every other person to a team. Match performance generally varies by situation, and adding a layer to make sure high-performing players are on opposite teams is more complicated than it sounds.

[crazytimes]

Jelan, on 08 April 2025 - 03:05 PM, said:

And this is the problem, if the MM worked better we would have many more close matches, yet we don't. Ultimately the MM needs more than 5 tiers as all Tier 1s arent equal. An LRM boat Tier 1 players is very different to a light pilot Tier 1 player in skill

Yeah because spreading a small population over more buckets is really going to help everything right?

The current MM separates the absolute potatoes from the good. The mediocre players get to experience the full spectrum. That's a lot better than nothing. I am more than willing to get roflstomped occasionally in the interest of actually getting matches.

As for your claim about akill- if someone can main LRMs and stay tier 1, good on them.

[T Hawk]

crazytimes, on 10 April 2025 - 12:24 PM, said:

Yeah because spreading a small population over more buckets is really going to help everything right?

The current MM separates the absolute potatoes from the good. The mediocre players get to experience the full spectrum. That's a lot better than nothing. I am more than willing to get roflstomped occasionally in the interest of actually getting matches.

As for your claim about akill- if someone can main LRMs and stay tier 1, good on them.

The matchmaking has been trash for over 10 years, since we first mentioned it on the boards. The whole story of this game is that the devs - or maybe it was more the management - thought they knew better. Now here we are. I mean this game lasted quite a long time, but I would assume this is because the Mechwarrior community is very forgiving and exceptionally passionate about their franchise.

Valid criticism was ignored for years and dismissed as hate.

Edited by T Hawk, 11 April 2025 - 05:25 AM.

[pbiggz]

T Hawk, on 11 April 2025 - 05:24 AM, said:

The matchmaking has been trash for over 10 years, since we first mentioned it on the boards.

No it hasn't.

T Hawk, on 11 April 2025 - 05:24 AM, said:

The whole story of this game is that the devs - or maybe it was more the management - thought they knew better.

Paul may have been dogwater at weapon and mech balance, but matchmaking is a technical exercise not an ideological one. The matchmaker we have is the best we can expect for such a small population. That's the truth, so yeah, compared to you, they definitely know better.

T Hawk, on 11 April 2025 - 05:24 AM, said:

Now here we are. I mean this game lasted quite a long time, but I would assume this is because the Mechwarrior community is very forgiving and exceptionally passionate about their franchise.

Forgiving is not how I would describe you ossified lunatics, especially given this forum seems to cycle through the same like, 3 boogeymen, groups, matchmaker, weapons, groups, matchmake weapons, on a rolling basis, depending on how bored you are.

T Hawk, on 11 April 2025 - 05:24 AM, said:

Valid criticism was ignored for years and dismissed as hate.

Again, the matchmaker is a technical exercise not an ideological one. You aren't losing matches because of the matchmaker, and you wouldn't have any matches to win or lose without it. Your "valid criticism" is about as effective as criticizing copper wire, or light switches.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 April 2025 - 05:43 AM.

[T Hawk]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2025 - 05:42 AM, said:

No it hasn't.



Paul may have been dogwater at weapon and mech balance, but matchmaking is a technical exercise not an ideological one. The matchmaker we have is the best we can expect for such a small population. That's the truth, so yeah, compared to you, they definitely know better.



Forgiving is not how I would describe you ossified lunatics, especially given this forum seems to cycle through the same like, 3 boogeymen, groups, matchmaker, weapons, groups, matchmake weapons, on a rolling basis, depending on how bored you are.



Again, the matchmaker is a technical exercise not an ideological one. You aren't losing matches because of the matchmaker, and you wouldn't have any matches to win or lose without it. Your "valid criticism" is about as effective as criticizing copper wire, or light switches.

Proof of what I said. Every single sentence.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

So far you haven't shown any proof or what you think the matchmaker should even look like, go troll elsewhere. Also who's this we you speak of?

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 11 April 2025 - 07:02 AM.

[Void Angel]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 11 April 2025 - 07:00 AM, said:

So far you haven't shown any proof or what you think the matchmaker should even look like, go troll elsewhere. Also who's this we you speak of?

They're always "we." I think it's a combination of thinking themselves the Voice of the People, and delusions of being Napoleon.

[pattonesque]

maybe instead of complaining about matchmaker some of you should Make your mechs Match builds which aren't dogwater

edit: wait I got another one. maybe instead of complaining about groups you should Group fire your weapons instead of chainfiring them so you spread damage everywhere

Edited by pattonesque, 11 April 2025 - 12:05 PM.

[Jutneux]

T Hawk, on 11 April 2025 - 06:23 AM, said:

Proof of what I said. Every single sentence.

They really don't understand how out of touch they are. Old guard tend to get like this when they've been playing too long to have an outsider's perspective. It's rarely any use talking with them unless you like talking to aggressive walls that insist you have a fundamental misunderstanding of why their little kingdom works the way it does and how it cannot possibly be flawed.

Also, don't forget they're usually the ones benefitting from farming newer players. They're less likely to get absolutely trounced for 7 matches in a row and end up feeling like they've wasted hours playing matchmakingwarrior online.

Just look at pattonesque above. You have a perfectly valid issue and that player has immediately resorted to calling you too dumb to use group fire. Aggressive, toxic, entrenched players. The cherry on top is that this insult was edited in after the fact, as if pattonesque needed the ego boost of adding an extra insult to the post, like someone hurling insults in a bad comedy.

T Hawk, on 11 April 2025 - 05:24 AM, said:

The matchmaking has been trash for over 10 years, since we first mentioned it on the boards. The whole story of this game is that the devs - or maybe it was more the management - thought they knew better. Now here we are. I mean this game lasted quite a long time, but I would assume this is because the Mechwarrior community is very forgiving and exceptionally passionate about their franchise.

Valid criticism was ignored for years and dismissed as hate.

Void Angel, on 11 April 2025 - 07:15 AM, said:

They're always "we." I think it's a combination of thinking themselves the Voice of the People, and delusions of being Napoleon.

Apparently someone is having issues with the 'we' in this, so I'll help them out. The first we is anyone who has ever thought the matchmaker was poo. Spoilers: this game is down to a barebones number of players. A plurality has already left. See how it's all down to perspective? Main character syndrome.

The second we is every remaining player - we're all playing with this crummy matchmaker.

Edited by Jutneux, 11 April 2025 - 10:38 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Jutneux, on 11 April 2025 - 10:01 PM, said:

Apparently someone is having issues with the 'we' in this, so I'll help them out. The first we is anyone who has ever thought the matchmaker was poo. Spoilers: this game is down to a barebones number of players. A plurality has already left. See how it's all down to perspective? Main character syndrome.

The second we is every remaining player - we're all playing with this crummy matchmaker.

The only one with main character syndrome is the one pretending to voice "everyone" else's concerns. The irony is that the old guard comment cuts both ways given they made it clear they've been complaining about the matchmaker over 10 years (which definitely makes you old guard) so you're already employing some faulty logic to make it sound like it's you against the "elite".

Jutneux, on 11 April 2025 - 10:01 PM, said:

Also, don't forget they're usually the ones benefitting from farming newer players. They're less likely to get absolutely trounced for 7 matches in a row and end up feeling like they've wasted hours playing matchmakingwarrior online.

Huh? You seem to think that the matchmaker is constantly putting you against the best of the best, which it's not because there aren't even that many left to put against you . The population shrinking ensured that, used to be back in 2016 during prime time NA times you could easily get a lobby of just tier 1 players. These days you're lucky if that many tier 1s are even on and queued at the same time.

No one here has made claims that they enjoy seal clubbing or want that. In fact I wish it was like the old 2016 days so I wouldn't have such a frustrating experience watch myself do triple the damage of 4 guys who were so scared to get their paint scratched they just sat behind a rock the entire match and got a few shots off before they died.

Keeping in mind no matchmaker actually makes seal clubbing more prevalent. Just look at faction play and event queue for examples.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 11 April 2025 - 10:42 PM.