152 replies to this topic

[Eidoloth]

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying the mech is overpowered, because it isn't when it works properly. We are just frustrated when spaghetti code renders an otherwise perfectly good hit as a miss, even when visually, it hit, the mech played a "got hit" animation, and it flashed armor but your crosshair doesn't turn red, and it doesn't take the damage it should have. It doesn't happen every time but often enough to infurate those of us that know we have good aim.

It doesn't happen with any other mech and I doubt an extra 20 kph really makes that big a difference.

Also how do you explain the complete lack of arm hitboxes? Or phantom components you can destroy? That alone warrants investigation.

[Meep Meep]

I still think it needs a so8 heat dispersion buff separate from the stock 7.5% and given how easily its legged(hitreg willing) could probably use a fall damage quirk just so you don't needlessly take off points every time the speed causes you to bo and luke duke off a small rock.

[kalashnikity]

GETREKT4K, on 01 March 2025 - 11:20 AM, said:

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying the mech is overpowered, because it isn't when it works properly. We are just frustrated when spaghetti code renders an otherwise perfectly good hit as a miss, even when visually, it hit, the mech played a "got hit" animation, and it flashed armor but your crosshair doesn't turn red, and it doesn't take the damage it should have. It doesn't happen every time but often enough to infurate those of us that know we have good aim.

It doesn't happen with any other mech and I doubt an extra 20 kph really makes that big a difference.

Also how do you explain the complete lack of arm hitboxes? Or phantom components you can destroy? That alone warrants investigation.

How many people are not taking into account convergence?

kalashnikity, on 01 March 2025 - 05:32 PM, said:

Another example light is only 50 meters away, and the background is 100 meters, same thing, that flea at 50 meters could pass right between the center of your stone rhino alpha.


If background it 1000m away, and flea is only 200m away, the alpha will still be 80% of the width of the weapon mounts. On a stone rhino vs a flea, that means you will be lucky to hit with 2/4 of the hardpoints, unless you are using something splatty, like LBX or MRM.

https://mwomercs.com...on/page__st__20

At best, on a running light, you might get 50% of your alpha to hit, in most circumstances.


"but I hit with a 60 alpha", well, part of your 60 alpha hit... the rest hit dirt.

[Eidoloth]

Probably because if that were the case, it would occur with other lights that are the same size and around the same speed. But it doesn't.

[GreyNovember]

Just to test this, I went a few rounds as a Cheetah instead. ECM, 2HML, 4 SPL.

Running at 140 and jumping around, compared to stuttering between 170-200, seems to give the same level of relative durability. I end up about the same level of torn apart if I survive the match being equally aggressive.

In both mechs I do make it a point to stand still and take a shot if I get into a scenario where the other mech has blown it's load, and I can get away with taking more precise aim.

Granted, the cheetah matches are all against low alpha, DPS mechs, and not as duels. The high alpha mechs were SRM or unsustainable stalker laservomit.

From this admittedly limited testing, it sounds like I'm either getting better at light mech shenanigans, or the people I run into consistently can't deal with them.

[Void Angel]

GETREKT4K, on 01 March 2025 - 11:20 AM, said:

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying the mech is overpowered, because it isn't when it works properly. We are just frustrated when spaghetti code renders an otherwise perfectly good hit as a miss, even when visually, it hit, the mech played a "got hit" animation, and it flashed armor but your crosshair doesn't turn red, and it doesn't take the damage it should have. It doesn't happen every time but often enough to infurate those of us that know we have good aim.

It doesn't happen with any other mech and I doubt an extra 20 kph really makes that big a difference.

Also how do you explain the complete lack of arm hitboxes? Or phantom components you can destroy? That alone warrants investigation.

This is the sort of thing that needs video evidence. I'm not doubting your sincerity, but perceptions in the moment can be fooled. For example, I have taken a lot of arm damage while on the move, so I know they have hit boxes - but again, show them the video! If that's happening, we definitely need it fixed, but you have to show your work, as it were.

Edited by Void Angel, 02 March 2025 - 04:01 AM.

[CAPITAL LETTERS]

Void Angel, on 01 March 2025 - 12:06 AM, said:

It's pushing the limits on how fast the game engine can handle moving a Battlemech, so it's possible that it's having hitreg issues on that regard.  But since all the evidence so far is anecdotal, it's important to look at factors that might account for players' experiences.  Rest assured that the devs are closely monitoring the 'mech, and if it is indeed having issues due to speed, they'll sadly have to slow it down.

That's fair, there are definitely other contributing factors, convergence, bad aim(!) etc. And I don't think it makes it broken or OP, looks like a lot of fun to play. I think a lot of mechs use speed and mobility to survive. I think an example where there may be less personal bias is when a moth is being focused and you have 2 or 3 mechs shooting at the same target. In these scenarios it seems, to me, to take a lot of outgoing fire to damage or take a component, as long as the moth is moving. Maybe that durability is just a product of it's speed and structure, but it does seem a lot more forgiving in that sense than other 20-ton lights. You can dance around a bit in a flea, but taking focused fire from multiple mechs is going to take a piece.

Edited by CAPITAL LETTERS, 02 March 2025 - 10:15 AM.

[Void Angel]

CAPITAL LETTERS, on 02 March 2025 - 10:13 AM, said:

That's fair, there are definitely other contributing factors, convergence, bad aim(!) etc. And I don't think it makes it broken or OP, looks like a lot of fun to play. I think a lot of mechs use speed and mobility to survive. I think an example where there may be less personal bias is when a moth is being focused and you have 2 or 3 mechs shooting at the same target. In these scenarios it seems, to me, to take a lot of outgoing fire to damage or take a component, as long as the moth is moving. Maybe that durability is just a product of it's speed and structure, but it does seem a lot more forgiving in that sense than other 20-ton lights. You can dance around a bit in a flea, but taking focused fire from multiple mechs is going to take a piece.

It's fun to pilot, but not always much fun to play right now. Everyone has decided that the Firemoth is the biggest threat on the battlefield, so now I have the dubious pleasure of tanking damage for Assault 'mechs. That's not even hyperbole; I've had people totally ignore a top-tier Assault build to shoot at the Firemoth next to him - even to the point of ignoring his fire while waiting for me to expose. But it's still playable, and most of the time it's fun, too! It bears mentioning that every other Light MASC chassis is significantly more agile than the Firemoth when MASC is activated. The Firemoth's strength is its ability to sprint around the battlefield and put fire on 'mechs that don't yet realize it's there - just like the tabletop canon lore. Well, that and Clantech weapons...

Part of the Firemoth's outsize durability, I've found out, is that the full-body structure bonus is incorrectly being applied to rear torsos as armor - it's a known bug that's going to be corrected in the next patch. You can still burn through it, and I promise you, the Firemoth's hit boxes are registering hits, but it's too tough when it's running away right now, and I think a lot of pilots will have to adjust their tactics when they find that the reason they could run through those three 'mechs with minimal damage was that they had two tons of free armor on their rear components.

[1453 R]

Honestly, I was unaware of the rear torso armor bug until this thread and it explains so much of the jank/weirdness I've seen in my games. That single point of rear armor on the Fire Moths has seemed like it's been doing way more work than it should be, I figured I was just getting a little unreasonably lucky with grazing hits. That and my general play tier is one in which "Light 'Mech Bolts Away While Waggling Around" can get one out of a whole lot of scrapes that simply wouldn't fly in Ultracomp-level play.

That said, concur strongly with Void. The Fire Moth is honestly not particularly nimble by light 'mech standards. It is simply fast, and can leverage that speed to pick and choose engagements more or less at will. It cannot force engagements, though. The Fire Moth has less ability to dive in and stick, to stay on a target and apply continuous pressure, than basically any other light 'Mech I own. My OSR-1P has seventy less KPH in the tank and that seriously affects its engagements, but it can also stick on a target and gnaw until the deed is done if I catch a target without proper support. That 'mech is dangerous in that it can very easily find wounded targets and swiftly chew them into wreckage. The OSR-1P doesn't 'harass' - it hunts, and it feeeds.

The Fire Moth has a lot of trouble doing that even against isolated victims. In my experience it's generally more about wild strafing runs than tenacious ankle-chawing - zooming past someone or multiple someones at a million miles an hour, dumping fire into whatever you can get a bead on, then disappearing around a bend and finding a new zip code to occupy. You can sow chaos in the enemy's formation, and in the best cases you can disrupt the movement of the entire enemy blob and get them to abandon (or stop charging towards) better ground, but the thing just doesn't have the ability to dive in and finish the deed that I value in my swift 'Mechs.

It's still a ton of fun, going that fast is wild, but I'm not sure how much impact it will make on Puglandia long-term. Other than beating everyone else to the gorram Mountain Dew Spill 100% of the time in Abomination.

[Void Angel]

Well, that 'mech is a lot bigger than the Fire Moth or its substitutes, too. Still, the biggest limitation on the Fire Moth's agility is its relatively tiny acceleration bonus from MASC. That gives enemy players a much easier time keeping you in their sights, which dramatically impacts how a Fire Moth has to be played.

It also attracts enemy fire like a magnet, since 90% of the player base has decided that it's terribly OP and needs to die before the enemy Assaults.

[1453 R]

Honestly? I compared the two as close to side-by-side as the system would let me, and the Osiris and Fire Moth looked vaguely comparable in size. The Osiris is bigger in the central body than the Fire Moth, but the Moth's thunder-thighs issue and its upswept, bullet-catchy arms means it generally presents as not that much smaller than the Osiris. Osirises were the 'Mechs I was doing Light 'Mech Things in most recently before the Moth, and the contrast between the two is honestly stark.

Having spent a bunch of time in Moths during the event, I can safely say that the 'Mechs are fairly safe* to ignore by light 'Mech standards. If one shows you its mug, wing some boolets at it and scare it off and it won't be an issue. They can't dive in and chew like other light 'Mechs can, the community's whole "THIS IS BORKED KILL ON SIGHT" response is massively overblown and doesn't remotely represent the level of threat the 'Mech actually brings. Yes, letting one get at your unprotected hindparts undetected is going to cost you, quite possibly dearly, but most of the game's other light 'Mechs can bite harder or chew for longer. Tossing a "buzz off I'm busy" salvo or two to dissuade a Moth's strafing runs is usually sufficient, so long as you're not alone.

If you are alone, that's your fault and you need to do better.

[Meep Meep]

1453 R, on 03 March 2025 - 10:06 AM, said:

Honestly? I compared the two as close to side-by-side as the system would let me, and the Osiris and Fire Moth looked vaguely comparable in size. The Osiris is bigger in the central body than the Fire Moth, but the Moth's thunder-thighs issue and its upswept, bullet-catchy arms means it generally presents as not that much smaller than the Osiris. Osirises were the 'Mechs I was doing Light 'Mech Things in most recently before the Moth, and the contrast between the two is honestly stark.

Having spent a bunch of time in Moths during the event, I can safely say that the 'Mechs are fairly safe* to ignore by light 'Mech standards. If one shows you its mug, wing some boolets at it and scare it off and it won't be an issue. They can't dive in and chew like other light 'Mechs can, the community's whole "THIS IS BORKED KILL ON SIGHT" response is massively overblown and doesn't remotely represent the level of threat the 'Mech actually brings. Yes, letting one get at your unprotected hindparts undetected is going to cost you, quite possibly dearly, but most of the game's other light 'Mechs can bite harder or chew for longer. Tossing a "buzz off I'm busy" salvo or two to dissuade a Moth's strafing runs is usually sufficient, so long as you're not alone.

If you are alone, that's your fault and you need to do better.

While this is legitimate advice at tier 4 it will get you cored and killed in t1. The ones driving fire moths in that tier are absolutely a priority threat.

[Void Angel]

Yeah, but are they the priority threat, to the point of ignoring Assaults that are shooting at you to target them? Asking for a friend. =D

[Meep Meep]

I can only speak from personal experience but yes. As soon as I pop up taking some booty shots I get intensely targeted to the point I can drag a fair few away from the front line fight. I've had lumbering assaults literally lumber after me for half the map since I pause and turn around to kiss them with some lasers to keep their rage levels up.

[Void Angel]

1453 R, on 03 March 2025 - 10:06 AM, said:

Honestly? I compared the two as close to side-by-side as the system would let me, and the Osiris and Fire Moth looked vaguely comparable in size. The Osiris is bigger in the central body than the Fire Moth, but the Moth's thunder-thighs issue and its upswept, bullet-catchy arms means it generally presents as not that much smaller than the Osiris. Osirises were the 'Mechs I was doing Light 'Mech Things in most recently before the Moth, and the contrast between the two is honestly stark.

The Osiris has significantly larger model, proportionally - which is what you'd expect since it's half again as heavy as the Fire Moth. I believe it also has the next-higher movement archetype. That makes it both significantly slower than the Fire Moth, and significantly more durable. My Sehkmet has 57 frontal ST durability, with 60 on the legs. My Fire Moths have 51 and 48 respectively, with most of that coming from structure (making them more vulnerable to bonus damage from crits.

Now, an Osiris 1P HMG brawler can sustain 14.6 dps, with 17.8 maximum; that Firemoth H HSL build can sustain only 4.6 - but with a 58.5 alpha; even a pure uPL build can only sustain 15.2dps, with far less endurance. It's also interesting to note that high-alpha laser poke is one of the areas where Clantech excels. About the closest an Osiris can get to that is an ERML Skirmisher with much greater range, and half the upfront damage and less max dps. The better Osiris builds tend toward 130-145kph, while the Fire Moth's entry and exit speed is 209kph. And conversely, that brawling Osiris has a much easier time fighting close in, possessing superior weapon tonnage and durability, particularly in the legs.

So these are two very different 'mechs, despite their shared weight class. The true close substitutes for the Firemoth are other 20- to 25-tonners such as the Commando, Myst Lynx, Locust, and Flea.

[Void Angel]

Meep Meep, on 03 March 2025 - 11:27 PM, said:

I can only speak from personal experience but yes. As soon as I pop up taking some booty shots I get intensely targeted to the point I can drag a fair few away from the front line fight. I've had lumbering assaults literally lumber after me for half the map since I pause and turn around to kiss them with some lasers to keep their rage levels up.

Firemoths are nasty - but there is no way in a Mahe hell that you should be shooting at me over a Deathstrike ultra-autocannon build that's coring you out. What I'm seeing with this 'mech is that people will sometimes completely ignore massive incoming fire from an Assault 'mech that is literally killing them right next to me, just so they can try to ruin my match. That's not a rational threat assessment, any more than it's rational for Assaults to chase you over creation - that is literally the worst thing they can do in response to Light harassment, and everyone should know that. They're simply acting out of hate for the new 'mech, albeit one that is legitimately powerful.

But much of their hatred is born out of refusal to adapt. Know what I started seeing a lot more of while I was completing the event? Aside from finger-painting laser vomit builds? Seismic sensor. Multiple times in a single match I had enemy 'mechs start to turn around long before I could get in range with my giant arsenal of tiny knives - because they adapted to the existence of a Light threat and paid attention. I'm also seeing a lot more people actually target my legs instead of just brute-forcing my torso because their massive alpha makes it trivial to do so. Game telemetry will dictate if nerfs are needed (particularly after the RT bug is fixed,) but right now the 'mech is very much hard mode simply because you are going to be tanking fire for the Assault 'mechs on your team.

For now, though, I'm playing some of the new builds I saw on larger 'mechs, and letting other people tank the hatred for a while.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 March 2025 - 01:14 AM.

[kalashnikity]

For the love of Kerensky, if we can't get armor added to the legs, at least shift some from the arms to the legs.

Or at least remove the hit box from the armor skirt, which is supposed to add durability, not make a bigger hit box.

[1453 R]

Meep Meep, on 03 March 2025 - 02:28 PM, said:

While this is legitimate advice at tier 4 it will get you cored and killed in t1. The ones driving fire moths in that tier are absolutely a priority threat.

In fairness and clarification, I more meant what Void is saying - you don't ignore a Fire Moth to the extent of "Ah whatevs" and let it do whatever it pleases, but you also shouldn't be shooting at Fire Moths when there's Deathstrikes to shoot at, and you ferdamsher shouldn't be trundling your 85-ton *** after the bloody things. Chase it off, keep an eye on your Seismic, but otherwise focus on doing more useful things until it shows its twitchy little face again, at which point you chase it off again. There's only so many times it can suffer chip damage to try and wingding a formation that's aware of it and responding to it but not allowing it to dictate the formation's movements.

Void Angel, on 04 March 2025 - 12:57 AM, said:

The Osiris has significantly larger model, proportionally - which is what you'd expect since it's half again as heavy as the Fire Moth. I believe it also has the next-higher movement archetype. That makes it both significantly slower than the Fire Moth, and significantly more durable. My Sehkmet has 57 frontal ST durability, with 60 on the legs. My Fire Moths have 51 and 48 respectively, with most of that coming from structure (making them more vulnerable to bonus damage from crits.

Now, an Osiris 1P HMG brawler can sustain 14.6 dps, with 17.8 maximum; that Firemoth H HSL build can sustain only 4.6 - but with a 58.5 alpha; even a pure uPL build can only sustain 15.2dps, with far less endurance. It's also interesting to note that high-alpha laser poke is one of the areas where Clantech excels. About the closest an Osiris can get to that is an ERML Skirmisher with much greater range, and half the upfront damage and less max dps. The better Osiris builds tend toward 130-145kph, while the Fire Moth's entry and exit speed is 209kph. And conversely, that brawling Osiris has a much easier time fighting close in, possessing superior weapon tonnage and durability, particularly in the legs.

So these are two very different 'mechs, despite their shared weight class. The true close substitutes for the Firemoth are other 20- to 25-tonners such as the Commando, Myst Lynx, Locust, and Flea.

Fair enough. I do realize the difference in specific roles/tactics, but I suppose I probably over-value tenacity in my 'Mechs. Stuff that can stick to the target and force an engagement, stuff that can pick one guy and say "YOU. You and I are gonna ride this rocket until one of us falls off and dies." Generally because I can't trust my damn teammates to be able to finish the job, so when I'm playing swift hunter-killer stuff I'm drawn to 'Mechs that can properly hunt. I've had a lot of trouble doing that in Fire Moths, but that may just be my own suck, heh.

I will say, I keep hearing people say "you can totally alpha nine heavy smalls!", and I'm off looking at the GH tables in MechDB and remembering my own woes with the things gfoing "exsqueeze me how". That's thirty extra Spooky Heat you're eating, and heavy lasers aren't exactly cool runners in the first place. Yeesh.

Edited by 1453 R, 04 March 2025 - 06:58 AM.

[Void Angel]

Oh, you absolutely can alpha 9 HSLs. The extra Heat from the Heat Scale penalty will ramp you up to the top of your heat capacity, but you're not going to melt down and die. The build's Heat Capacity is 50 before skills, but factor in Heat Containment and Heat Reduction skills, and you'll be ok. Plus a lot of the time you only get one good backstab with the Firemoth, so giving them an alpha and running to the next target while you cool can be a good idea. If you're in close cooperation with a teammate, it's probably better to stagger-fire each arm, which gives you a lot more damage output before you need to cool down.

As for tactics, your preferred tactics are fine (though you should of course be prepared to disengage if the situation changes.) It's just that the Firemoth isn't like the Osiris in its capabilities, so it won't play the same way regardless of what builds we try on either chassis.

[kalashnikity]

Void Angel, on 04 March 2025 - 08:12 AM, said:

Oh, you absolutely can alpha 9 HSLs. The extra Heat from the Heat Scale penalty will ramp you up to the top of your heat capacity, but you're not going to melt down and die. The build's Heat Capacity is 50 before skills, but factor in Heat Containment and Heat Reduction skills, and you'll be ok. Plus a lot of the time you only get one good backstab with the Firemoth, so giving them an alpha and running to the next target while you cool can be a good idea. If you're in close cooperation with a teammate, it's probably better to stagger-fire each arm, which gives you a lot more damage output before you need to cool down.

As for tactics, your preferred tactics are fine (though you should of course be prepared to disengage if the situation changes.) It's just that the Firemoth isn't like the Osiris in its capabilities, so it won't play the same way regardless of what builds we try on either chassis.

why do 9HSL, when you you can alpha with no ghost heat using 5HSL and 6 Micropulse?

57 alpha vs 49.2 alpha?

Max heat vs

I can do alpha, half alpha, alpha, half alpha then another partial alpha without overheating...