81 replies to this topic

[BlueDevilspawn]

Ttly, on 22 April 2025 - 08:39 PM, said:

What, "Executioner and Vipers are fine and doesn't need buffs because Sovereign and Scaleshot exists?" that's a pretty silly line of thought.

I mean, listen at that part alone, you don't think that's a pretty narrow way of thinking?
As if there's no way to buff the other variants/builds that wouldn't buff the already strong ones, that's what So8 (where hardpoint bloat/stacking doesn't always exist/they're on less than ideal hardpoint position) and specific quirks (or the should've lack of them in case of the Sovereign) are for.
And hey omnis are even easier to balance than bmechs on account of the locked engine and upgrades limiting their build choices even more if anything, outside of mixpod builds hardpoint stacking.

Vipers were already good for red laser and MG spam before the Scaleshot put them over the top. The VPR-F for example created one of the first red/mg monsters that needed nerfing.

As for the Executioner, set aside the Sovereign for a moment... without the Legend it's STILL one of the strongest mechs in the game (yes, in QP and comp) and capable of carrying just fine. ERPPC/reds, bracket lasvom, stagger alpha bracket lasvom. To be fair, it is also one of the hardest to use to its full potential, but in the right hands it's an easy carry mech. It's strength comes from its agility and attendant firepower and multiple ranges. It's not meant to tank anything. Use the JJ and MASC properly and it's a beast.

Some example non-Sovereign loadouts -
3 ERPPC 10 ERuL (use velocity LT)
2 LPL 6 ERML 8 ERuL
1 LPL 2HLL3 ERML 10 ERuL
4 ERLL 10 ERuL or 6SPL/4ERuL

Off-meta loadouts using so8 -
Prime - 2 ERPPC Gauss Rifle
C - ERPPC and UAC20 (doesn't jam)

So, frankly you're not even cherry picking the right examples.

Mechs are quirked (nerfs or buffs) according to their strongest, most meta builds. Sometimes that's a so8 like the WHK-Prime, other times like the strongest combo like a Timby-S CT lasvom with ECM and JJ (and zero offensive and survival quirks, deservedly). Sometimes we give so8 something to do like the Exe-C, but if the combo of pods makes something stronger, that's what is reviewed most intensely. Imagine if we gave the non-jamming UAC20 (as opposed to locked to the C so8) paired with a boatload of red lasers plus the HP, JJ, and MASC of an assault mech.

Edited by BlueDevilspawn, 22 April 2025 - 11:33 PM.

[Twilight-Sparkle]

Excited to see what's new - glad to still see love and development being put into this fantastic game - thanks!

[nanashi0110]

Could it be that this month's sale and free mech event is over...?

Or will they be postponed until next month?

[crazytimes]

nanashi0110, on 23 April 2025 - 07:12 PM, said:

Could it be that this month's sale and free mech event is over...?

Or will they be postponed until next month?

Lootbags only just finished, there's a sale on in game at the moment, plus the store/steam sale.

[nanashi0110]

crazytimes, on 23 April 2025 - 09:16 PM, said:

Lootbags only just finished, there's a sale on in game at the moment, plus the store/steam sale.

I was hoping for a CBill MECH sale, but I guess not this month?

[mtfatboy3006]

InnerSphereNews, on 18 April 2025 - 10:01 AM, said:

• A Free Mech Event you won’t want to miss

I seem to have missed something... did this happen? I saw Solaris and Urbie Derbie...

[Direwoof]

So where is teh free mech event aminya? I'm confused.

[Pz_DC]

Hello. Please, next time when patch will be delayed, dosnt matter why, release mech changes separately, becouse other way it will be too many changes in one single patch...
P.S. sure thing new content is most likely will be cool, but still, split it - one patch will change old content, next one - add new. Too many changes at same time is not good.

Edited by Pz_DC, 26 April 2025 - 02:09 PM.

[NeoRocket]

Someone brought up the coming Shadowcat LGD mech? So since LGD mech is discussed. One humble question.

Will we ever get a Daishi/Dire Legendary Mech? Release it and I am first in line to buy!

Edited by NeoRocket, 26 April 2025 - 05:51 PM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

Pz_DC, on 26 April 2025 - 12:41 PM, said:

Hello. Please, next time when patch will be delayed, dosnt matter why, release mech changes separately, becouse other way it will be too many changes in one single patch...
P.S. sure thing new content is most likely will be cool, but still, split it - one patch will change old content, next one - add new. Too many changes at same time is not good.

Most patch changes are mech quirks changes. We actually do review whether the volume of changes is too much or not. Adding a new mech (Legend, booster, etc) has no bearing on these. What are you suggesting be released separately?

[Pz_DC]

BlueDevilspawn, on 27 April 2025 - 11:10 AM, said:

Most patch changes are mech quirks changes. We actually do review whether the volume of changes is too much or not. Adding a new mech (Legend, booster, etc) has no bearing on these. What are you suggesting be released separately?

All what can be marked as "new content" is one patch, all "quirk changes" and so on in other... For example if you change "-10% ER PPC heat" to "-10% heat" it's going to 2nd part, but if you add "-30 masc cooldown rate" it's going to be in 1st part etc/ But sure, if you "[color=#959595]actually do review whether the volume of changes is too much or not. [/color]" it's not nessesary.

Edited by Pz_DC, 27 April 2025 - 02:12 PM.

[simon1812]

I was hoping this whole thing was an April's fool stunt....

[w0qj]

NICE badge... jealous!!

simon1812, on 27 April 2025 - 07:24 PM, said:

I was hoping ...

[DrFeelBad]

Any news on that event?

[nanashi0110]

Will the free mech event be integrated into the May patch and you'll get two different ones?

Will there be one missing...

[Ttly]

BlueDevilspawn, on 22 April 2025 - 11:06 PM, said:

Vipers were already good for red laser and MG spam before the Scaleshot put them over the top. The VPR-F for example created one of the first red/mg monsters that needed nerfing. As for the Executioner, set aside the Sovereign for a moment... without the Legend it's STILL one of the strongest mechs in the game (yes, in QP and comp) and capable of carrying just fine. ERPPC/reds, bracket lasvom, stagger alpha bracket lasvom. To be fair, it is also one of the hardest to use to its full potential, but in the right hands it's an easy carry mech. It's strength comes from its agility and attendant firepower and multiple ranges. It's not meant to tank anything. Use the JJ and MASC properly and it's a beast. Some example non-Sovereign loadouts - 3 ERPPC 10 ERuL (use velocity LT) 2 LPL 6 ERML 8 ERuL 1 LPL 2HLL3 ERML 10 ERuL 4 ERLL 10 ERuL or 6SPL/4ERuL Off-meta loadouts using so8 - Prime - 2 ERPPC Gauss Rifle C - ERPPC and UAC20 (doesn't jam) So, frankly you're not even cherry picking the right examples. Mechs are quirked (nerfs or buffs) according to their strongest, most meta builds. Sometimes that's a so8 like the WHK-Prime, other times like the strongest combo like a Timby-S CT lasvom with ECM and JJ (and zero offensive and survival quirks, deservedly). Sometimes we give so8 something to do like the Exe-C, but if the combo of pods makes something stronger, that's what is reviewed most intensely. Imagine if we gave the non-jamming UAC20 (as opposed to locked to the C so8) paired with a boatload of red lasers plus the HP, JJ, and MASC of an assault mech.

Oooh, the Scaleshot, VPR-F, and C exists. So that's why the Prime, D, B, Medusa, and A doesn't need buffs in their current state.
Kodiak-3 exists, and that's why the other Kodiaks don't need buffs? The KDK-1 for sure is hot enough that it has to run an SHS build to even have the heat capacity to actually do its alpha viably for once.
And really, as far as (real) Executioners go, you said it yourself, only the energyboat mixedpod ones are great, and I'd personally blame EXE-M existing and its hardpoint bloating pods for that (and really most of your mentioned energyboat builds are just EXE-M builds).
No, don't drop your second-hand PTSD of whatever formerly OP build of whatever vehicle on me either, we don't live in that era do we?

Anyway that aside, the whole point of the argument is how an entire chassis is seemingly allowed only to have 2-3 viable builds/variants (thanks for proving the point), and patting yourself on the back for that is ridiculous from my point of view.
I mean hey, Vapor Eagle as a whole is totally OP solely because of the Rival and 3PPC VGL-1 (superceded by SMN-D now apparently) right? Sure feels like it with lack of tweaks (some of the worst agility on a medium with a lack of armor to boot) on the cbux variants (while even the Gorewing at least getting some cursory buffs recently) of it has gotten through the year.
What's next, Shadow Hawk also doesn't need buffs because Scattershot (still doesn't have at least ammo quirks to make up for its negative quirks by the way) at some point in time was considered OP? Or how the Ice Ferret (pretty bad decel for how fast it goes if you play without the PrimeRT if you've noticed) doesn't need more weapon quirks because it's an extra durable light (without anywhere the firepower of one) already?
You know, speaking of Ice Ferret, the IFR-J (the MASC one) is one of the few instances of negative quirks still in the game next to the Scattershot too to make up for its MASC advantage, though I'd say the damn thing already has a tonnage shortage (and short range loadouts) from having it in the first place.

Edited by Ttly, 02 May 2025 - 07:26 PM.

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 22 April 2025 - 10:54 PM, said:

Omnimechs are not easier to balance, as the history of the game amply demonstrates. Because mixing and matching hardpoints for optimal weapons loadouts have always been better than any reasonable Set-of-8 bonuses. And notice that you're shifting your argument here: you started responding to the explanation we were given that they hard-locked a bunch of stuff in order to prevent the new Legendary from buffing those other, OP builds through min-maxing pods. Now you're sliding over to "well, but overall we could balance underperforming pod combinations with Set of 8, or buffing low-hardpoint pods." Those things have been done, actually, but again, if you buff an empty Shadow Cat torso pod with great weapon quirks, that has knock-on effects for the pods with lots of hardpoints and now quirks. On the other half of it, balancing every single possible Set of 8 bonus to allow competitive builds with stock pods is a mammoth undertaking with low returns_^*, given that most players are mixing omnipods to begin with.

Uhh yeah, they are easier to balance because of their restrictions, it's basically handicap entitlements where a regular vehicle can just get around it much easier without said locked limitations, for omnis it's at most stacking hardpoint count while still having to contend with them.
Low/no hardpoint count pods, especially with alternative pod choices that has more? Entitled to more pod quirks if it doesn't lead to buffing the hardpoint bloat mixpod build/more So8 quirks.
Pods with high hardpoint count? Well the other way around, especially if it leads to a mixedpod hardpoint boating build.
Oh wait, this is for a chassis that has a self-sabotaging loadout like the Nova which doesn't have either cEndo or cFF on a medium which limits its free tonnage? Oh AND cXL250 that weighs the same as 255?! Well we better give it as much firepower as a heavy through quirks (So8/pod quirks) seeing as it sure as heck barely moves faster than one and without the armor, and giving it armor would just be silly and leads to another IS Orion situation.
Probably one of the better balance changes last year had, to the Cauldron's credit despite taking several months of incremental, seemingly indecisive (it's a handicapped medium it's entitled to quirks) changes just like how it took an entire year similarly for the Summoner to get to where it is now.
And you know, since the Viper-F did got mentioned in the other post, the MLX-G and ACH-E with their similar damage output could sure at least get some of that ammo quirk as well, to match the JVN-11F and SDR-5K if nothing else.

Another decent example would be the Ice Ferret, it's seriously limited by its overweight engine and it's one of the few cases of abundance of pod quirks over So8 even. Its main balancing failure is just how weak the weapon quirks (the IFR-A for sure could use -100% jam and more ammo quirk just like the MLX-D) are because someone thought instead that its speed+durability is enough advantage, but they forgot about the less than ideal engine rating:weight ratio of cXL 360 and low hardpoint count(IFR-J arms notwithstanding) it has.

There are also other ways like the Timber Wolf sure, where mounting cLRM10/ATM9s that gives it those big missile ears also entitles it to -10% damage received on said ST (effectively +11% hit points on said limbs if I counted right) which is certainly one way to encourage certain builds without affecting the meta one (your average ECM laserboat TBR). Though this bit does have its failure in being a HIDDEN MECHANIC just like missile bay doors damage reduction.

Sovereign was a case of a different chassis (EXE-B the chassis, the prototype Executioner in lore, not to be confused with EXE-B the variant of the actual Executioner) that shouldn't be entitled to more quirk than it already does (Annihilator with JJs and agility, etc.), having access to them because someone doesn't want to make an entire separate chassis called "Executioner-B" which would have denied it access to the EXE-PRIME ST pods with its -ballistic cooldown and hardpoints (which isn't an issue on the real Executioner because it's otherwise handicapped by no cEndo and overweight engine to make heavy use of it, on top of its ballistic builds mostly being So8 reliant) among other things.

And really, what's with the fixation on *having* to run mixpod builds? Yes, they can be strong because hardpoint bloat stacking sure, but they shouldn't be the only viable builds on a vehicle.


By the way, it always did bothered me how people around here don't seem to know the difference between "its" and "it's". The former being what you should use when referring to uhh object-possessive stuff and the latter is just short for "it is".

Edited by Ttly, 02 May 2025 - 09:23 PM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

1. The Exe builds are completely viable and meta today. I don't have PTSD from them being somehow obsolete. I use them to give others PTSD.
2. All variants have viable builds; you're comparing them to S-tier and no, not all variants will be S or even A tier, they just merely have to be able to deal out damage in QP (min-maxing in comp is a given).
3. Most of the mechs were inherited and most of them came from tabletop. We inherited their mounts and geometry. They're hopefully made viable if not good. Not here to translate your TT-bound builds into meta. Sometimes it works (e.g., WHK Prime), sometimes it works but it's meme (e.g., Exe-C), sometimes it's hardpoint boating meta (e.g., TBR-S)
4. The Nova Prime is good, great even, in QP. Your problem.
5. Timby ears having a hidden mechanic? It's been known for a while that missile launchers mounting missile weapons of a certain tube size and higher have damage reduction, like but less than bay door launchers. And this mechanic somehow offends you?
6. KDK-1 doesn't need SHS but it's an option. There are plenty of fast DHS Gauss or HAG vom builds off the top of my head.

I could go on but I'm mainly doing this for anyone else reading the thread. You're cooked.

Edited by BlueDevilspawn, 02 May 2025 - 10:36 PM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

No Endo/FF means all the crits ever for DHS. Hellbringer says hello.

[Void Angel]

Ttly, on 02 May 2025 - 07:46 PM, said:

Uhh yeah, they are easier to balance because of their restrictions, it's basically handicap entitlements where a regular vehicle can just get around it much easier without said locked limitations, for omnis it's at most stacking hardpoint count while still having to contend with them.

You can reiterate your error all you want, but it still won't be true. OmniMechs have their canon engines and upgrade hard-locked; given those limitations on mech design, it is harder to balance them. Some Omnis have sub-optimal upgrades (Ferro-Fibrous instead of Endo-Steel,) or hard-locked equipment that restrict pod space and pod weight for guns. There's only two ways to bring those chassis up to speed: set of 8 bonuses, and pod bonuses. But either way you've got a situation where every weapon change and meta shift will be dramatically impacted by the powerful bonuses imparted by pod and set bonuses. Other 'mechs use these weapons, you know. It might be easier to balance OmniMechs via Set-of-8 bonuses, but that's not the only factor involved - just the only scenario in which your reasoning might possibly be correct.

This shouldn't be difficult to understand - it's harder to balance OmniMechs because the design of OmniMechs are more limited. They can't just let the 'mech adjust its engine sizes or apply one set of quirks to the variant. The ability to swap out pods to obtain optimal hardpoint configurations is a huge advantage, and makes balance even more of a moving target than normal. That's why so few optimal Omni builds use stock pod configurations. It's not about nerfing one overperforming chassis. You have to nerf overperforming pods; and then nerf alternative pod configurations that pop up to provide a similar build; and oh look, the weapon turns out to be over-tuned when used by Battlemechs, so now we need to nerf the weapon itself... and the process starts all over again.

And before you say, "well, that's the same balance cycle that all 'mechs have to deal with..." Nope! That's wrong; it's the same balance cycle with extra steps - and repeated through n-dimensions (where n is the number of possibly viable omnipods.)
Now, I'm sure if you collated all the top-performing builds for any chassis, there are pods that are vastly under-utilized, and some that are bread-and-butter. But buffing those underperformers is a resource-intensive process because of the above. And since (as was explained to you already) it only makes sense to balance against top-performing builds, upgrading Set-of-8s and enhancing off-build pod configurations is going to be a slow process on the waaay-back burner.