70 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

streaks suffer at the hands of the try hard propaganda machine

it would be best to remove them from the game so we can put and end to the BS game they play

the number of nerfs placed on streaks since 2014 is insane

but don't let me keep you from trying them

[pbiggz]

that is not why streaks suffer lol

[w0qj]

How about making the STK-5M(P) with +1 HSL Missile Family?

[Ttly]

What, no one talking about the Koloss?
Still, the SSRM Kintaro (probably the best one for this you ask me) or the Stormcrow are probably what you'd want, maybe even the Dervish.

[nanashi0110]

1453 R, on 01 May 2025 - 08:20 AM, said:

I always hated the "ALL lock-on weapons are a NO-SKILL ABOMINATION that should have NEVER BEEN INVENTED!" horse manure in FPS games.

Not everybody will, or can, have the peerless perfect crackshot marksmanship the Mountain Dew-fueled CoD Kiddie twitch jockeys demand of every single FPS player ever. Lock-on weapons are as much an accessibility feature as they are a weapon archetype. Get over yourselves; if somebody beats you with a lock-on weapon, it's because they outplayed you with the tools the game makes available to them. It's why I've stopped bothering with TTB; his little sneer of "incoming skill" every time someone shoots missiles at him finally pissed me off enough to resolve not to click any more TTB videos.

Let people play with the weapons they want to play with, and make those weapons as functional as they can get. I understand why Streaks have to be janky and largely unusable without an engineering-level redesign, but that doesn't mean we have to be jerks to people who just want to use the weapons the game gives them as best they can.

I understand that auto-aim weapons are obnoxious. Especially since the auto-aiming OP character is currently on a rampage in a FPS game called OverWatch2...
So I'm hoping to increase the usability of the SSRM itself, not destroy its performance, and make it an option on the game.
(By the way, does American Mountain Dew have alcohol in it? I'd like to try some...)

Quicksilver Aberration, on 01 May 2025 - 02:16 PM, said:

I mean lock-ons/homings aren't inherently bad in FPS games. Like in MW4 the lock-on hate was....significantly less because mechanically they still allowed skill (most just probably didn't realize) as lock-ons homed on sections rather than how they work in MWO (either center-mass or random rolls like streaks) but also require much harder acquisition of lock (had to hold reticule on the mech itself for an amount of time). So to use all the compies favorite term as of late, it had more "skill expression". Homing/lock-ons are typically balanced by just having a much longer travel time which is why MW4 streaks were effectively delayed hitscan as opposed to actual hitscan like lasers in that game.

I know that a lock-on/homing weapon is characterized by guaranteed hit, but with a low upper limit.
I am concerned that the current SSRM has a low upper limit and also a rock-bottom low limit. (Short range, weak point against ECM/stealth).
There are many things to counter and punish, but little return.
Maybe that part-locked SSRM could solve this problem.
Might it have the potential to silence those who say they don't have the skills and become an option for those who want to use SSRM?

[nanashi0110]

Davegt27, on 01 May 2025 - 04:18 PM, said:

streaks suffer at the hands of the try hard propaganda machine

it would be best to remove them from the game so we can put and end to the BS game they play

the number of nerfs placed on streaks since 2014 is insane

but don't let me keep you from trying them

hmm... What do you mean?
Are you saying that the people who say “git gud potato” are preventing the less skilled from getting help...? I'm not sure what you're talking about.

pbiggz, on 01 May 2025 - 04:55 PM, said:

that is not why streaks suffer lol

So what are your thoughts on this? I am a little curious.

w0qj, on 02 May 2025 - 05:35 AM, said:

How about making the STK-5M(P) with +1 HSL Missile Family?

Isn't STK-5M too slow-footed to be a SSRM bort, there is also WAR EMU, and I think it is still too early for Legend on the same chassis.

Ttly, on 02 May 2025 - 08:26 AM, said:

What, no one talking about the Koloss?
Still, the SSRM Kintaro (probably the best one for this you ask me) or the Stormcrow are probably what you'd want, maybe even the Dervish.

SR-K may indeed be better, but wouldn't 2LB20+6SRM6 be better...?
As it stands, KTO-19 is the best. Hardpoint and Quirk are the best, no drawbacks except no JJ.
I thought Grasshopper or Dragon would be just the right variant.(If make SSRMLEGEND.)

[Ttly]

nanashi0110, on 02 May 2025 - 09:37 AM, said:

SR-K may indeed be better, but wouldn't 2LB20+6SRM6 be better...?

Yes, a nonSSRM build is the better go-to choice for the Koloss. But that doesn't change how it's allowed to have build variety of running SSRMs instead.
It does suck that it doesn't have arm actuators though. But hey, you can shoot SSRMs under MASC aim shake so there's that at least.

[Wraith 1]

As much as I hate SSRMs, I am pretty disappointed that PGI just nerfed the heck out of the Scattershot and then never touched the idea of 'trade-off' legend quirks again.

+range and -velocity could be interesting, almost like an IS ATM. Put it on something with fewer than 6 missile hardpoints so it doesn't instagib 20T's, and give it jumpjets so it can poptart, and it'd be decent at damage score farming.

[pbiggz]

nanashi0110, on 02 May 2025 - 09:37 AM, said:

So what are your thoughts on this? I am a little curious.

Dave is repeating what is essentially an anti-cauldron conspiracy talking point, which suggests that the cauldron hate casual players and since lock on weapons are clearly casual they nerf them.

It has no basis in reality. The way lock-on weapons in MWO exist, it is very very very challenging to find the fine line where they can fit in. If they are too strong, they do genuinely making aiming obsolete. Why would you take a weapon you can miss with, when you can consistently score massive damage with lock on weapons, quickly and often with little or no risk? Conversely, if the weapons are undertuned, they almost immediately become useless. That's where they've lived for a while because undertuning them has generally been safer than letting them dominate.

The heart and soul of it is that the lock-on mechanic in MWO is fairly badly implemented, and unless PGI were willing to devote some technical resources and design resources to thinking of a more interesting and rewarding way of making lock on weapons work (perhaps higher damage but only tracking as long as you track the target, or something along those lines) then it is very difficult for the cauldron to fit lock-on weapons into the game in a way that satisfies everyone, so they always try to air on the side of caution and let the vast majority of weapons, which are not lock on, be the focus of the game, even though that means, at least in competitive circles, lock on weapons are underperformers.

Dave just doesn't like that so he's thought up a narrative where he gets to be the victim. He's far from the only one.

Edited by pbiggz, 02 May 2025 - 11:12 AM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

pbiggz, on 02 May 2025 - 11:11 AM, said:

Dave is repeating what is essentially an anti-cauldron conspiracy talking point, which suggests that the cauldron hate casual players and since lock on weapons are clearly casual they nerf them.

It has no basis in reality. The way lock-on weapons in MWO exist, it is very very very challenging to find the fine line where they can fit in. If they are too strong, they do genuinely making aiming obsolete. Why would you take a weapon you can miss with, when you can consistently score massive damage with lock on weapons, quickly and often with little or no risk? Conversely, if the weapons are undertuned, they almost immediately become useless. That's where they've lived for a while because undertuning them has generally been safer than letting them dominate.

The heart and soul of it is that the lock-on mechanic in MWO is fairly badly implemented, and unless PGI were willing to devote some technical resources and design resources to thinking of a more interesting and rewarding way of making lock on weapons work (perhaps higher damage but only tracking as long as you track the target, or something along those lines) then it is very difficult for the cauldron to fit lock-on weapons into the game in a way that satisfies everyone, so they always try to air on the side of caution and let the vast majority of weapons, which are not lock on, be the focus of the game, even though that means, at least in competitive circles, lock on weapons are underperformers.

Dave just doesn't like that so he's thought up a narrative where he gets to be the victim. He's far from the only one.

This is correct. Dave is spouting easy lines that are entirely false. Whenever someone says "Cauldron hates lock-ons" use this copy-pasta.

Since cauldron took over balancing, the following lock-on buffs have occurred. Feel free to save the list and copy/paste yourself.

• Nerfed radar derp nodes for both factions
  
• Nerfed Clan ECM
  
• Nerfed ECM bubble size for both factions
  
• Added Thunderbolts and tuned them for better tracking
  
• Removed matchscore bonus for AMS (which reduced AMS on the field)
  
• Decoupled smaller launchers from larger launchers (ghost heat) which enables boating

Please do tell me exactly which one of these contributes to one's failure in using an auto-aim weapon? I will acknowledge that lock-ons require timing/positioning/exposure skill.... NOT aiming skill, not to the same degree as direct fire. Given that a lot of the playerbase fails at positiong, timing, and exposure I'm not surprised that they can't use lock-ons well, on top of the mechanics.

FWIW all in the cauldron do play lock-ons even if for testing purposes. It's because of us you have the likes of the Howl and the Grand Summoner-B so8 ATM quirks. When the Bane-3 was hurting we all played lock-ons to figure out how to buff it more.

[nanashi0110]

Ttly, on 02 May 2025 - 10:48 AM, said:

Yes, a nonSSRM build is the better go-to choice for the Koloss. But that doesn't change how it's allowed to have build variety of running SSRMs instead.
It does suck that it doesn't have arm actuators though. But hey, you can shoot SSRMs under MASC aim shake so there's that at least.

I see! It's true that SSRM would be more likely to hit the target if you shoot while assaulting.
I thought it would be the SRM because of the slot issue, but that might be a possibility.

pbiggz, on 02 May 2025 - 11:11 AM, said:

Dave is repeating what is essentially an anti-cauldron conspiracy talking point, which suggests that the cauldron hate casual players and since lock on weapons are clearly casual they nerf them.

It has no basis in reality. The way lock-on weapons in MWO exist, it is very very very challenging to find the fine line where they can fit in. If they are too strong, they do genuinely making aiming obsolete. Why would you take a weapon you can miss with, when you can consistently score massive damage with lock on weapons, quickly and often with little or no risk? Conversely, if the weapons are undertuned, they almost immediately become useless. That's where they've lived for a while because undertuning them has generally been safer than letting them dominate.

The heart and soul of it is that the lock-on mechanic in MWO is fairly badly implemented, and unless PGI were willing to devote some technical resources and design resources to thinking of a more interesting and rewarding way of making lock on weapons work (perhaps higher damage but only tracking as long as you track the target, or something along those lines) then it is very difficult for the cauldron to fit lock-on weapons into the game in a way that satisfies everyone, so they always try to air on the side of caution and let the vast majority of weapons, which are not lock on, be the focus of the game, even though that means, at least in competitive circles, lock on weapons are underperformers.

Dave just doesn't like that so he's thought up a narrative where he gets to be the victim. He's far from the only one.

I can't figure out what Dave and anti-cauldron are...
Does that mean we don't have to take them too seriously?And the lock-on issue... For me, I don't want the advantage of being able to shoot and hit to be erased. If you erase it, it's a TB with a short range.
How about adding a TAG function to the SSRM itself, for example? It may be too much of an advantage in terms of weight and slots, but the SSRM is almost a non-functional weapon without the TAG.
(I consider the SSRM to be a weapon for exterminating lights.)
Then there's the laser guidance you see in TPS games? The one where the missile flies to where you are aiming the laser. Can we use that thing?
I think it would be interesting to have a weapon that switches between lock-on fire and these two guided fire modes.
(Well, either or.)

BlueDevilspawn, on 02 May 2025 - 12:39 PM, said:

This is correct. Dave is spouting easy lines that are entirely false. Whenever someone says "Cauldron hates lock-ons" use this copy-pasta.

Since cauldron took over balancing, the following lock-on buffs have occurred. Feel free to save the list and copy/paste yourself.

• Nerfed radar derp nodes for both factions
  
• Nerfed Clan ECM
  
• Nerfed ECM bubble size for both factions
  
• Added Thunderbolts and tuned them for better tracking
  
• Removed matchscore bonus for AMS (which reduced AMS on the field)
  
• Decoupled smaller launchers from larger launchers (ghost heat) which enables boating

Please do tell me exactly which one of these contributes to one's failure in using an auto-aim weapon? I will acknowledge that lock-ons require timing/positioning/exposure skill.... NOT aiming skill, not to the same degree as direct fire. Given that a lot of the playerbase fails at positiong, timing, and exposure I'm not surprised that they can't use lock-ons well, on top of the mechanics.


FWIW all in the cauldron do play lock-ons even if for testing purposes. It's because of us you have the likes of the Howl and the Grand Summoner-B so8 ATM quirks. When the Bane-3 was hurting we all played lock-ons to figure out how to buff it more.

I don't know who Cauldron is... (adjustments man?).
Well, if you don't like lock-on weapons, the clan archers wouldn't have that finish. ("Clan Archer is SRMbort!" I know you'll argue that.)

[Ttly]

BlueDevilspawn, on 02 May 2025 - 12:39 PM, said:

• Nerfed radar derp nodes for both factions
  
• Nerfed Clan ECM
  
• Nerfed ECM bubble size for both factions
  
• Added Thunderbolts and tuned them for better tracking
  
• Removed matchscore bonus for AMS (which reduced AMS on the field)
  
• Decoupled smaller launchers from larger launchers (ghost heat) which enables boating

Radar Derp: maxR.Dep (which everyone keeps taking regardless) being nerfed from 90% to 80% is hardly that much of a buff for lock-ons, I mean lock-on times are still 2s for indirect at 500m-ish, and against maxR.Dep, maxT.Decay still can't really do much against it, at best it's a buff for T.Decay prefiring.

ECM nerfs: The bubble size nerf does help for lock-ons, but spending the 6 second or something (assuming said target even stays spotted that long) to get an indirect-lock against an ECM target isn't worth it.

Thunderbolt: Now nerfing the velocity for "better tracking" is a pretty absurd excuse to use when we now have the TBT-5N with its +35% Thunderbolt Velocity (make it +50% with velocity skill nodes) and turns out it doesn't really break much.
I will say though, TBs consistently hitting CTs do somewhat hurt lights and mediums a lot so nerfing it might be kind of warranted? Just not with "improving tracking" as a reason.

AMS: Hasn't really stopped people from still running their 3-4AMS Corsair/KFX now and then, and we do have AMS giving cbux even if it's a paltry amount now.

LRM5 separate HSL: Impact varies between hardpoint count of chassis, but sure, great.

Also forgot to mention the LRM velocity nerf from last year.
Still, there was also the SSRM spread buff prioritizing STs more from several months back too.

Edited by Ttly, 02 May 2025 - 02:23 PM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

You can argue degrees and values all you want, the fact of the matter is that I'm refuting the "cauldron hates lock-ons" comment. The above shows that we've buffed them overall. Despite all this it simply comes down to skill on either side. I take 1 node of radar derp and I don't even care if it gives radar derp or not. I take it for the lock lost chirp and screen flash. That's it. I use positioning and hard cover to foil lock-ons.

Ttly, on 02 May 2025 - 02:15 PM, said:

Radar Derp: maxR.Dep being nerfed from 90% to 80% is hardly that much of a buff for lock-ons, I mean lock-on times are still 2s for indirect at 500m-ish, and against maxR.Dep, maxT.Decay still can't really do much against it, at best it's a buff for T.Decay prefiring.

ECM nerfs: The bubble size nerf does help for lock-ons, but spending the 6 second or something (assuming said target even stays spotted that long) to get an indirect-lock against an ECM target isn't worth it.

Thunderbolt: Now nerfing the velocity for "better tracking" is a pretty absurd excuse to use when we now have the TBT-5N with its +35% Thunderbolt Velocity (make it +50% with velocity skill nodes) and turns out it doesn't really break much.
I will say though, TBs consistently hitting CTs do somewhat hurt lights and mediums a lot so nerfing it might be kind of warranted? Just not with "improving tracking" as a reason.

AMS: Hasn't really stopped people from still running their 3-4AMS Corsair/KFX now and then, and we do have AMS giving cbux even if it's a paltry amount now.

LRM5 separate HSL: Impact varies between hardpoint count of chassis, but sure, great.

Also forgot to mention the LRM velocity nerf from last year.
Still, there was also the SSRM spread buff prioritizing STs more from several months back too.

Streaks are guaranteed to hit the target, it's not so much a question of spread as it is what component the missiles hit. You lock, you fire, you hit with everything. Evens LRMS/ATMs don't give you this benefit. Fighting against streaks means you must have hard cover close by and dodge back behind it when Streaks are fired so they impact the cover instead. Even then, if the angle is shallow enough, Streaks are infamous for curving around some corners.

And yes as ttyl pointed out I neglected a buff, we made Streaks more likely to hit torsos which ultimately contributes more to killing mechs.

nanashi0110, on 02 May 2025 - 01:59 PM, said:

I see! It's true that SSRM would be more likely to hit the target if you shoot while assaulting.
I thought it would be the SRM because of the slot issue, but that might be a possibility.



I can't figure out what Dave and anti-cauldron are...
Does that mean we don't have to take them too seriously?And the lock-on issue... For me, I don't want the advantage of being able to shoot and hit to be erased. If you erase it, it's a TB with a short range.
How about adding a TAG function to the SSRM itself, for example? It may be too much of an advantage in terms of weight and slots, but the SSRM is almost a non-functional weapon without the TAG.
(I consider the SSRM to be a weapon for exterminating lights.)
Then there's the laser guidance you see in TPS games? The one where the missile flies to where you are aiming the laser. Can we use that thing?
I think it would be interesting to have a weapon that switches between lock-on fire and these two guided fire modes.
(Well, either or.)



I don't know who Cauldron is... (adjustments man?).
Well, if you don't like lock-on weapons, the clan archers wouldn't have that finish. ("Clan Archer is SRMbort!" I know you'll argue that.)

As for "what is the cauldron" - it is the group of players who recommends balance adjustments to the game, and also helps make and quirk new mech chassis, booster packs, and legends.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wraith 1, on 02 May 2025 - 11:09 AM, said:

+range and -velocity could be interesting, almost like an IS ATM. Put it on something with fewer than 6 missile hardpoints so it doesn't instagib 20T's, and give it jumpjets so it can poptart, and it'd be decent at damage score farming.

Extra range with low velocity just makes a weapon more gimmicky. You either score big against targets unlucky enough for you to land shots on them, or they are pretty much useless. Things that swing that wildly are generally seen as no-nos in modern game design.

[nanashi0110]

BlueDevilspawn, on 02 May 2025 - 02:27 PM, said:

You can argue degrees and values all you want, the fact of the matter is that I'm refuting the "cauldron hates lock-ons" comment. The above shows that we've buffed them overall. Despite all this it simply comes down to skill on either side. I take 1 node of radar derp and I don't even care if it gives radar derp or not. I take it for the lock lost chirp and screen flash. That's it. I use positioning and hard cover to foil lock-ons.



Streaks are guaranteed to hit the target, it's not so much a question of spread as it is what component the missiles hit. You lock, you fire, you hit with everything. Evens LRMS/ATMs don't give you this benefit. Fighting against streaks means you must have hard cover close by and dodge back behind it when Streaks are fired so they impact the cover instead. Even then, if the angle is shallow enough, Streaks are infamous for curving around some corners.

And yes as ttyl pointed out I neglected a buff, we made Streaks more likely to hit torsos which ultimately contributes more to killing mechs.



As for "what is the cauldron" - it is the group of players who recommends balance adjustments to the game, and also helps make and quirk new mech chassis, booster packs, and legends.

I see? So you have a group of players who create the balance and content of the game?
That would certainly be open to criticism...
Considering the fact that the MWO continues to this day, well, they don't seem to be the wrong people.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

...Is it possible to have a legendary that notably alters SSRM behavior to make them an interesting weapon that is not oppressive?

We have a Bane hero that messes with an entire weapon system. It makes a tradeoff for it, I don't see them often so I can only assume that they are not that overpowered.

Proposal, possibly not in cards: legendary mech. Hardlocked TAG or LTAG in head or CT. Unique quirk alters SSRMs to not be a lockon weapon in traditional method - they become laser guided and will "follow the laser pointer". Workable with current game assets? Potential for being oppressive? Fun?

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 03 May 2025 - 04:33 PM.

[GreyNovember]

Given enough resources, anything's possible. Going to ignore the practicality of implementation, and address the actual concept.

Laser guided SSRMs would be REALLY finnicky about how they change direction in flight.

If your laser goes off target, the missiles may turn into a wall / the floor, whiffing the whole batch.

How often do you maintain a 100% burn with your lasers?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

There's a limit to what equipment can alter, and making laser guided missiles isn't supported with XML edits.

[Davegt27]

OP
the location to the store

https://mwomercs.com/store might help you find the legend mech your looking for

https://mech.nav-alpha.com/
is a good tool that you can use to build out mechs

https://www.twitch.t...hwarrior-online

I spend like 15 to 20 hrs a day on twitch watching, it is a good place to interact with MWO players and ask questions

there is also a caldron discord maybe someone can share the link

my original Streak Boat is a Timberwolf S, this mech has 1000 kills (I don't use it anymore its to slow)
every time I log on to play I will use about 4 Mechs before I log off
the ACW is the one, I set up for streaks and its my preferred streak boat these days

I was new like you when I first researched into Streaks and they don't exactly work as advertise
I have never seen anywhere in this game where it says streaks are a low skill weapon

I worked in the USAF on weapons systems and I never seen a label on a weapon that said "this is a low skill weapon"

when the Caldron first came out the first thing they did was nerf streaks

but ignore all that just try stuff for yourself

HTHs

Edited by Davegt27, 04 May 2025 - 12:11 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

GreyNovember, on 03 May 2025 - 05:11 PM, said:

Given enough resources, anything's possible. Going to ignore the practicality of implementation, and address the actual concept.

Laser guided SSRMs would be REALLY finnicky about how they change direction in flight.

If your laser goes off target, the missiles may turn into a wall / the floor, whiffing the whole batch.

How often do you maintain a 100% burn with your lasers?

Would simply be an assumed risk of the weapon change and demand a bit more skill possibly - if they just revert to dumbfire when they lose laser guidance, oopsies.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 May 2025 - 05:46 PM, said:

There's a limit to what equipment can alter, and making laser guided missiles isn't supported with XML edits.

Interesting. I didn't know too much about the nuts and bolts of lock on mechanics or TAG system mechanics and how much of it could be poked at realistically. TIL