17 replies to this topic

[Tolstoyevski]

As a new player, I stuck mainly with lights and mediums when I began, since I understood it frees up more drop tonnage for others to field larger mechs in our matches. After 350 hours, I still only play lights and mediums since I enjoy mobility, but I'm finding myself having a hard time performing my roles when the heavier mechs on my team make terrible plays or position themselves awfully. Some will press W at the start of the match and not let go until they're the first death in the lobby. Some will spend the entire match as far away in their deepest falloff ranges contributing almost nothing. Most wander off solo into situations where even when I do attempt to follow and support them, it's typically just to die along side them as they try to 2v6 the enemy team; leaving me in a position where I can not extract alive.

It also seems to be a generally accepted consensus, that a major issue with balancing anything in this game boils down to "Being too overpowered in low tier since it abuses new players while simultaneously being too underpowered in high tier since skilled players know how to counter."

When you consider both of these, one of the easiest and most immediate fixes that comes to mind is putting prerequisites on Assault class mechs. If brand new players want to play slow mechs with heavy armor and weapon systems, there are plenty of choices between the 60 and 75 ton brackets they can use. If they want to pilot larger Assault mechs, then they should be able to meet certain goals first before being entrusted with such a large portion of the drop tonnage. Maintaining a K/D ratio greater than 1.0 seems like a basic enough prerequisite to start with. This will help new players as much as it would help the rest of their team, ensuring that what should be the few assaults on their team, are being used by people who understand how to play. It may also spice up the game play in general, with a wider variety of heavy mechs being fielded than we currently see.

The only problem with this, is the unfortunate fact that many players with lower than 1.0 K/D ratio have spent real money buying assault mechs. Since you can't just lock them out of the mechs they paid for, and since I sincerely doubt they'd get a refund, perhaps their accounts could be grandfathered in to circumvent the prerequisites? Although this would cause the problem to basically unfix itself leaving us back at square one.

[KursedVixen]

Tolstoyevski, on 13 July 2025 - 01:20 PM, said:

As a new player, I stuck mainly with lights and mediums when I began, since I understood it frees up more drop tonnage for others to field larger mechs in our matches. After 350 hours, I still only play lights and mediums since I enjoy mobility, but I'm finding myself having a hard time performing my roles when the heavier mechs on my team make terrible plays or position themselves awfully. Some will press W at the start of the match and not let go until they're the first death in the lobby. Some will spend the entire match as far away in their deepest falloff ranges contributing almost nothing. Most wander off solo into situations where even when I do attempt to follow and support them, it's typically just to die along side them as they try to 2v6 the enemy team; leaving me in a position where I can not extract alive.

It also seems to be a generally accepted consensus, that a major issue with balancing anything in this game boils down to "Being too overpowered in low tier since it abuses new players while simultaneously being too underpowered in high tier since skilled players know how to counter."

When you consider both of these, one of the easiest and most immediate fixes that comes to mind is putting prerequisites on Assault class mechs. If brand new players want to play slow mechs with heavy armor and weapon systems, there are plenty of choices between the 60 and 75 ton brackets they can use. If they want to pilot larger Assault mechs, then they should be able to meet certain goals first before being entrusted with such a large portion of the drop tonnage. Maintaining a K/D ratio greater than 1.0 seems like a basic enough prerequisite to start with. This will help new players as much as it would help the rest of their team, ensuring that what should be the few assaults on their team, are being used by people who understand how to play. It may also spice up the game play in general, with a wider variety of heavy mechs being fielded than we currently see.

The only problem with this, is the unfortunate fact that many players with lower than 1.0 K/D ratio have spent real money buying assault mechs. Since you can't just lock them out of the mechs they paid for, and since I sincerely doubt they'd get a refund, perhaps their accounts could be grandfathered in to circumvent the prerequisites? Although this would cause the problem to basically unfix itself leaving us back at square one.

i don't see this problem at all the problem i see is that lighter mechs tend to leave the slower assaults behind to fend for themselves even alone an assault mech cannot take on a swarm of lights even a single light mech is a threat which could be dealt with by allies but if those allies leave their assaults behind....

[epikt]

Tolstoyevski, on 13 July 2025 - 01:20 PM, said:

I understood it frees up more drop tonnage for others to field larger mechs in our matches.

You understood wrong.
Sure the matchmaker will try to sort of balance the different class, by giving "priority" to the less played classes in the queue, but as far as I know there is no strict rules of tonnage and/or class repartition to form a team (for example yesterday I had a game, conquest on Alpine Peaks of all things, without any light mechs on the team - it's not a one off).

(the only situation where you sometimes must free some tonnage is when you play in a group, where you can't drop too heavy or too light)

Also, the game balance philosophy of MWO is based on the idea there is no stronger class to which you graduate while playing (like in a game with indrop economy where your performance allows you to unlock stronger and stronger gear)(IIRC, this is the case in Mechwarrior Living Legend for example), every mech is available from the start to anyone (provided that you bought it of course) and, in theory, every mech has the potential to impact the outcome of a match in a similar manner.

In other words, a noob in a light mech is no better or no worst than a noob in an assault mech.
Let's let noobs pilot what they want.


PS:

KursedVixen, on 13 July 2025 - 01:42 PM, said:

the problem i see is that lighter mechs tend to leave the slower assaults behind to fend for themselves even alone an assault mech cannot take on a swarm of lights even a single light mech is a threat which could be dealt with by allies but if those allies leave their assaults behind....

This is this kind of mentality that creates that nascar everybody hates...
PLEASE, slow mechs pilots, stop following fast mechs and think for yourselves and take a good position to fight. It's normal fast mechs will try to flank, thus "leave" the pack to work on the flank. If the slow mechs join them, it will only force them to flank further and trigger the nascar...
That does not mean staying alone, if you're so afraid of lights you just have to stay with the other slow mechs and overwatch each others. And eventually call anti-light mechs to your rescue (not all lights are anti-lights).

[Tolstoyevski]

epikt, on 13 July 2025 - 05:02 PM, said:

You understood wrong.
Sure the matchmaker will try to sort of balance the different class, by giving "priority" to the less played classes in the queue, but as far as I know there is no strict rules of tonnage and/or class repartition to form a team (for example yesterday I had a game, conquest on Alpine Peaks of all things, without any light mechs on the team - it's not a one off).

(the only situation where you sometimes must free some tonnage is when you play in a group, where you can't drop too heavy or too light)

Also, the game balance philosophy of MWO is based on the idea there is no stronger class to which you graduate while playing (like in a game with indrop economy where your performance allows you to unlock stronger and stronger gear)(IIRC, this is the case in Mechwarrior Living Legend for example), every mech is available from the start to anyone (provided that you bought it of course) and, in theory, every mech has the potential to impact the outcome of a match in a similar manner.

In other words, a noob in a light mech is no better or no worst than a noob in an assault mech.
Let's let noobs pilot what they want.

I'm aware matchmaking doesn't attempt to match teams based on 'classes', rather I was under the impression it was by total tonnage available for the entire team, give or take some tons incase it can't get perfectly equal teams. Is this not how it works? That would be, absolute wild to think some teams are being matched with 600 total tonnage against a team with 900 total tonnage, and absolutely would explain why matches feel completely one sided.

When it comes to noobs piloting assaults though, when it's reached this point where people are so bad you can not tell if they are legitimately griefing or not, there simply are no excuses. People like this actively drive away the players who actually want to play the game. There are more than enough heavy mechs to satisfy their play style. Assaults make a massive impact on the battlefield, and it would be unfair to the 11 other people on the team just to 'Let noobs pilot what they want' if they're not contributing.

Edited by Tolstoyevski, 13 July 2025 - 06:08 PM.

[Void Angel]

Tolstoyevski, on 13 July 2025 - 06:07 PM, said:

I'm aware matchmaking doesn't attempt to match teams based on 'classes', rather I was under the impression it was by total tonnage available for the entire team, give or take some tons incase it can't get perfectly equal teams. Is this not how it works? That would be, absolute wild to think some teams are being matched with 600 total tonnage against a team with 900 total tonnage, and absolutely would explain why matches feel completely one sided.

When it comes to noobs piloting assaults though, when it's reached this point where people are so bad you can not tell if they are legitimately griefing or not, there simply are no excuses. People like this actively drive away the players who actually want to play the game. There are more than enough heavy mechs to satisfy their play style. Assaults make a massive impact on the battlefield, and it would be unfair to the 11 other people on the team just to 'Let noobs pilot what they want' if they're not contributing.

They're not griefing. They're just trying to finagle a massive Assault chassis, and they have to learn some time. It's not correct to say "well, let them pilot heavies!" Heavies aren't Assaults, and require a different play style. Sure, some Assaults are faster and more agile, but even then the differences tell. People have to learn some time - and you're queuing up in the tiers where that happens. They'll get better, or they won't, but putting artificial limitations on Assaults will have a bunch of negative knock-on effects.

And really, think about what you're arguing: if Heavy 'mechs are giving players the same play style, then they're not going to know how to do that either. So how does their bringing a 70-tonner instead of a 95-tonner help anyone? If piloting an Assault isn't very different from piloting a Heavy, they'll suck equally with either weight class; but if it is very different, they're going to have trouble as they adjust. You could argue that they'll have less trouble if they work their way up the weight classes - and you'd probably be right - but they're also going to play that weight class less, if they're running into trouble. That makes this a partially self-correcting issue on their part, but you can't choose what they play for them. You'll be better off focusing on your own gameplay, because you can affect that more - and it'll help your blood pressure as well.

As for "leaving the Assaults behind," I know it happens - but I also know, from experience, that very often the Assault that's "left behind" has made a mistake. I used to see Assault drivers complain - almost immediately - that the team was leaving them behind (particularly on the original Caustic Valley.) The problem? While they carped at the team, my slower Atlas was ahead of them by a football field or two. The cause was bad routes taken, or stopping in place to fight or die the instant anthing shot at them... (You know how to engage the reverse gear on an Assault 'mech, by the way? You shoot it with a Medium Laser.)

That's not to say that if it happens to you, it's always your fault. Just look at the situation and ask yourself what you could have done: the answer might be "nothing," but it won't be more times than you think. That being said, faster 'mechs do need to support teammates in trouble - that's what the speed allows them to do, after all - the other day, I went halfway across the map in my Firemoth to extricate an Executioner who'd gotten himself into hot water. But sometimes the only way I could get to you would expose me to the withering cover fire of the enemy's teammates. In that case, you're on your own.

Edited by Void Angel, 15 July 2025 - 12:41 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 14 July 2025 - 08:59 AM, said:

(You know how to engage the reverse gear on an Assault 'mech, by the way? You shoot it with a Medium Laser.)

so you approve of shooting your teammates?

[Void Angel]

Are you trying to embarrass yourself, or is it some kind of curse for you?

[KursedVixen]

A huge problem with locking down assault mechs in this game is that you can outright buy assault mechs from the store so unless that purchase comes with the ability to pilot that mech your essentially forcing people to not use the assets they purchased.

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 July 2025 - 10:08 AM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 14 July 2025 - 10:08 AM, said:

A huge problem with locking down assault mechs in this game is that you can outright buy assault mechs from the store so unless that purchase comes with the ability to pilot that mech your essentially forcing people to not use the assets they purchased.

LOL, no.

First must people obtain an assault 'Mech, then they can start learning how to best use it.

[Tesunie]

martian, on 14 July 2025 - 10:19 AM, said:

LOL, no.

First must people obtain an assault 'Mech, then they can start learning how to best use it.

Not exactly... The free to use Champion mechs. I'm sure a few assault chassis make it into that rotation of trial mechs... (Even with their often time dated "flavor of the month" builds set up for maxed skills when they have none...) So people can try out assault mechs and start using them for free... technically speaking.

[martian]

Tesunie, on 14 July 2025 - 10:24 AM, said:

Not exactly... The free to use Champion mechs. I'm sure a few assault chassis make it into that rotation of trial mechs... (Even with their often time dated "flavor of the month" builds set up for maxed skills when they have none...) So people can try out assault mechs and start using them for free... technically speaking.

That is the same thing. First you must sit in an assault 'Mech (or in other 'Mech), then you can start learning how to use it. Tiers 4 and 5 are ideal environment for it. It does not work the other way round. Watching Youtube videos (probably years out of date and quite possibly uploaded by some random average or sub-average guy) is not nearly enough.

On top of that, Trial 'Mechs can not be customized in their loadouts or their skills.

Edited by martian, 14 July 2025 - 10:42 AM.

[Tesunie]

martian, on 14 July 2025 - 10:33 AM, said:

That is the same thing. First you must sit in an assault 'Mech (or in other 'Mech), then you can start learning how to use it. Tiers 4 and 5 are ideal environment for it. It does not work the other way round. Watching Youtube videos (probably years out of date and quite possibly uploaded by some random average or sub-average guy) is not nearly enough.

On top of that, Trial 'Mechs can not be customized in their loadouts or their skills.

Point stands that is exactly what every one else seems to be saying, a prerequisite before one can use an assault mech is not exactly a good idea, and shouldn't be added in. People need to learn sometime, if it even interests them to do so.

I feel a lot of us are kind of talking around each other, saying basically the same things.

[KursedVixen]

martian, on 14 July 2025 - 10:19 AM, said:

LOL, no.

First must people obtain an assault 'Mech, then they can start learning how to best use it.

that's not what OP said.

Void Angel, on 14 July 2025 - 09:12 AM, said:

Are you trying to embarrass yourself, or is it some kind of curse for you?

Are you trying to dodge a question or are you just immidiatly trying to start an argument over a simple question that could be resolved with the simple three letter Y.E.S. or two letter N.O. ?

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 July 2025 - 11:31 AM.

[martian]

Tesunie, on 14 July 2025 - 10:51 AM, said:

Point stands that is exactly what every one else seems to be saying, a prerequisite before one can use an assault mech is not exactly a good idea, and shouldn't be added in. People need to learn sometime, if it even interests them to do so.

I feel a lot of us are kind of talking around each other, saying basically the same things.

Any attempts to introduce some "prerequisites" are futile in this phase of the MWO life cycle.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 14 July 2025 - 08:59 AM, said:

(You know how to engage the reverse gear on an Assault 'mech, by the way? You shoot it with a Medium Laser.)

KursedVixen, on 14 July 2025 - 09:06 AM, said:

so you approve of shooting your teammates?

Void was just stating that most people start to hit reverse the moment they take any damage. I've seen it happen on old Terra Therma(?) with that central area. We as a team are trying to push into the central of the map, lead by an Atlas/assault mech. They turn around the corner, get hit by the enemy team, hit reverse, and block their entire team from following through leading to a total party wipe. Rather than continuing to push forward so their own team mates can enter into the center and actually fight.

He isn't saying to hit your teammates to get them to hit reverse...

[Tolstoyevski]

I have a bad feeling a lot of higher ranked players are chiming in saying T4 and T5 is where people should 'learn' assaults, since they don't actually having to play the hopeless matches with these players on their team. It's pretty easy to brush off the problems when they don't affect you.

[Tesunie]

Tolstoyevski, on 14 July 2025 - 05:03 PM, said:

I have a bad feeling a lot of higher ranked players are chiming in saying T4 and T5 is where people should 'learn' assaults, since they don't actually having to play the hopeless matches with these players on their team. It's pretty easy to brush off the problems when they don't affect you.

Usually, T5-T4 have a lot of newer players. As such, they are more likely to be used for learning how to play the game. It's likely easier to learn the basics in those tiers than, as an example, trying something new in a T1 match. However, on the flip side, by the time you are in T1 (if you get there), in theory you should be experienced enough within the game as a whole that you could try something new (say, like an Assault if you've never used one before somehow) and at least be able to do something with it.

However, in the higher tiers of play, you are more likely to be really punished for a mistake, making it less forgiving for learning. Enjoy T5-4 play if you are new and learning. Try new things realizing a single misstep is less likely to doom your performance completely. Once again though, on the flip side, everyone else in probably in the same boat skill level wise (if PSR is doing it's job correctly), so you are less likely to have anyone able/willing to cover for you if you make a mistake. Like, you might be more likely to be abandoned by your team upon first bit of damage being thrown around if you stand your ground and everyone else runs away... Or find yourself down a teammate real fast as one (or more) fast mechs charge head first into the enemy team and die within minutes of the match starting...

Personally speaking, I don't see any need to blockade any class of mech, besides maybe a few first matches (say, 1-4 matches) where you might be in intro matches where everyone either are all in set mechs, or against AI targets as you get your feet under you. After that... pick and choose which mech you think will work best for you.

If this game had it in it, I would love to see a 1-4 match intro with AI opponents where you get to experience each match with each mech class (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault), so players have a feel for the types before even seeing live players... But this is likely a large ask at this time, considering MW:O's age and income revenues.

[Tesunie]

As a note I thought of after the fact, there is also private lobbies. Get together with a friend (or more) and do practice runs against each other for a bit to try a new thing out. These matches might not provide rewards, but it is a safe way to trial a mech and get the hang of some parts of it.