54 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

"I know you are, but what am I" isn't the strong, dominating defense you think it is. I analyze and examine the game - you stamp your foot and try to deflect the argument by pretending you're above actually engaging in arguments that deal with little-people things - like facts. It didn't work in your last two posts - did you think it would start with this one?

[Khosumi]

Void Angel, on 12 August 2025 - 03:07 PM, said:

"I know you are, but what am I" isn't the strong, dominating defense you think it is. I analyze and examine the game - you stamp your foot and try to deflect the argument by pretending you're above actually engaging in arguments that deal with little-people things - like facts. It didn't work in your last two posts - did you think it would start with this one?

Can you point out to me exactly where in your guides you encourage teams splitting to cover more ground, and not just "following the fracking atlas". You mention lights and mediums gathering intel, but only as a means to direct the deathball.

Your entire guides are the culmination of deathballing. Can you not see it?

[Khosumi]

Here.
Let me give you some insight.
Rule One: Coordinate Around Key Units, Not Just Follow

• 
  Rather than blindly following the biggest mech, identify multiple key units across the team’s composition, form coordinated groups.
  
• 
  Join these groups selectively and flexibly, ensuring they cover distinct strategic angles or lanes.
  
• 
  Maintain communication with your immediate support group by voice, text, or in game pinging to adapt quickly as the battle changes.
  
• 
  Avoid trailing a single push that leaves other flank routes exposed. Having multiple firing angles complicate enemy reactions and improve your team's operational presence.

Rule Two: Distributed Eyes and Dynamic Recon

• 
  Light mechs and scouts should actively gain and share crucial intel.
  
• 
  Operate at the edges to contest territory, spot enemy flanks, and disrupt enemy positioning.
  
• 
  Medium and heavy mechs should also contribute intel by sharing observations of priority targets or enemy movements while holding control points or forward positions.
  
• 
  Communication doesn't have to be perfect: quick pings, target tags, or short callouts about enemy locations and movements help build situational awareness for everyone.

Rule Three: Focus Fire and Tactical Prioritization with Mobility

• 
  Concentrate fire on vulnerable or high-priority targets, adapting to the flow of the fight.
  
• 
  Rather than all ganging up in a single cluster, coordinate with your group to focus fire while maintaining spacing that limits exposure to flanking.
  
• 
  Use crossfire by positioning within supporting range of allies on flanks or behind cover.
  
• 
  If a target retreats, shift fire, avoid reckless chasing that breaks formation or leaves positional advantage.

Rule Four: Mutual Support Without Clustering

• 
  Stay close enough to provide mutual fire support and assist teammates under pressure, but avoid tight clumping that limits maneuver options.
  
• 
  Use terrain and cover to support teammates at a distance, creating overlapping fields of fire.
  
• 
  If a teammate is being threatened, assist promptly, but maintain awareness of your positioning to avoid the danger of enemy flanks.
  
• 
  Early map control and forward positioning create safer support lanes and reduce the need for defensive blobs.

Rule Five: Adapt and Break the Mold When Needed

• 
  Situations vary greatly, no fixed formation will win every match.
  
• 
  Recognize when splitting up to control objectives, hold lanes, or execute flanking maneuvers is more beneficial than grouping tightly.
  
• 
  Know your mech’s role, strengths, and weaknesses and adjust dynamically.
  
• 
  When in doubt, communicate your intent clearly or signal your actions to teammates.

Supplemental Tips: Practical Enhancements for Coordination

• 
  Use quick communication tools available like team chat, target spotted calls, and positional markers to provide meaningful intel without needing full voice comms.
  
• 
  Encourage teammates to take varied roles such as harassment, control holding, or dedicated scouting to increase map presence.
  
• 
  Remember, victory often goes to the team with better situational awareness and flexible cooperation and not just the biggest, slowest, or most heavily armed mass.

Edited by Khosumi, 12 August 2025 - 03:42 PM.

[Void Angel]

Nope, still wrong. And you've still not actually understood my guides - if you had actually read them, instead of skimming them to inspire your own talking points, you'd realize that a few of your points are actually advocated in the guides. But you're not really interested; you just hate that "death balling" works in a semi-coordinated PuG environment, and you're making up reasons that it's really bad play - instead of being, you know, a tried and tested method that reliably works. You really want to be right - but you care less about being correct, and that's tragic. Direct that passion toward something other than your own pride, and who knows what you might accomplish.

At least you're not mangling Sun Tzu...

[Khosumi]

Void Angel, on 12 August 2025 - 03:45 PM, said:

Nope, still wrong. And you've still not actually understood my guides - if you had actually read them, instead of skimming them to inspire your own talking points, you'd realize that a few of your points are actually advocated in the guides. But you're not really interested; you just hate that "death balling" works in a semi-coordinated PuG environment, and you're making up reasons that it's really bad play - instead of being, you know, a tried and tested method that reliably works. You really want to be right - but you care less about being correct, and that's tragic. Direct that passion toward something other than your own pride, and who knows what you might accomplish.

At least you're not mangling Sun Tzu...

Then show me exactly where you talk about varied strategies. You said I was just hand waving arguments away, look at you now.

Your inability to conceptualize any other strategy would be valid outside of deathballing is the thing that baffles me. For someone that writes guides, in the hopes of teaching others and improving each other's gameplay, you sure seem quite opposed to having the same done to you.

Edited by Khosumi, 12 August 2025 - 03:59 PM.

[YankeeDoodle77]

looks like someone walked into a murderball last game they were in

[Void Angel]

Kiddle, you haven't taught me anything - and I'm not going to sit down and learn at your feet when you can't even be bothered to read the works you're abusing. As if refusing to let you shift the burden of proof was "hand-waving." Go to your room and think about what you've done. Grownups are talking.

[Khosumi]

Void Angel, on 12 August 2025 - 04:07 PM, said:

Kiddle, you haven't taught me anything - and I'm not going to sit down and learn at your feet when you can't even be bothered to read the works you're abusing. As if refusing to let you shift the burden of proof was "hand-waving." Go to your room and think about what you've done. Grownups are talking.

This is the third time you have failed at producing anything of value that would further the discussion, and are now simply resorting to ad hominems and personal attacks, rather than being humble enough to discuss your strategies.

Very lame.

[Void Angel]

You're still trying to shift the burden of proof onto me to disprove your claims. But when the author of a work tells you that the work doesn't advocate what a similarly poor reader termed "lemming bull-rush tactics," his opinion is authoritative. Yours is not. In grown-up land, you have to demonstrate a claim you want to make before anyone is obliged to produce proof refuting you. Trying to get around that is what's "lame."

Go to your room.

[Khosumi]

No, that’s not how burden of proof works. You’ve made a counterclaim that your guides contain varied strategies which means you carry the responsibility to support that with examples, not just wave it away because you wrote them.
Your “author opinion is authoritative” line doesn’t hold up. In an actual discussion, what matters is the text itself, not just what the author says it means afterward. If the evidence is really there, show it. Otherwise, you’re just avoiding the point.

[GargoyleVine]

it was a few years ago on tourmaline we had 5 Atlas on our team, after a little hokey pokey and stuff, all of us on comms agreed to do an Atlas-ball and push all at once and hit the enemy super hard and got the W, it was fun teamwork and pretty freakin awesome and mass Atlas carnage plus the rest of team followed, good times

[Khosumi]

Void Angel, on 12 August 2025 - 04:16 PM, said:

You're still trying to shift the burden of proof onto me to disprove your claims. But when the author of a work tells you that the work doesn't advocate what a similarly poor reader termed "lemming bull-rush tactics," his opinion is authoritative. Yours is not. In grown-up land, you have to demonstrate a claim you want to make before anyone is obliged to produce proof refuting you. Trying to get around that is what's "lame."

Go to your room.

Let’s use your own words here:
“Stay close to your Atlas — never stray more than 100 meters from your heavy or assault core.” That’s not general situational advice that’s prescribing constant tight grouping. It is deathballing.
You tell light mechs: “Your job is to protect the big guns and scout just far enough to give them warning — don’t go haring off on your own.” That definition turns lights into tethered scouts and bodyguards for the blob, not independent flankers that can dictate other lines of battle.
Even your “exception” rule reads: “Every rule has an exception — but unless you’re absolutely sure, stay with the group.” That’s not about flexibility that’s reinforcing that the default is the group, with exceptions discouraged unless someone is confident enough to override your doctrine.
You also instruct: “Never split your force — a lone mech is a dead mech.” You present this as universal truth, not just a situational caution. That directly removes split pushes, spread map control, or multilance harassment as viable default plays.
So when you say the guides don’t promote “lemming bull‑rush” tactics, the text contradicts you. You are telling everyone explicitly to remain welded to the heavy/assault core and to avoid dividing forces. That’s deathballing, refined and codified.
If there’s a passage that outlines a full, proactive alternative strategy and not just scouting in service of the blob then by all means, quote it. Because based on your actual wording, this is a deathball doctrine.

Edited by Khosumi, 12 August 2025 - 04:39 PM.

[1453 R]

Khosumi. Buddy. Friend. Pal.

I've read Void's guides. They are written primarily for newer players, or weaker players. People who might be looking for guides on how to effectively play a game they're floundering and struggling in, who are looking for something to get their head above water. They are not advanced tactical guides for strong, high-tier players looking to up their game, they are a Lowest Common Denominator attempt to to give knuckleheads the vaguest clue.

One of my favorite posts I've ever made in this forum, and a story I remember to this day, was on page 24 of Timidity is Not a Tactic: Angry Clan Woman Eats Newbs For Sake of Team. Eleven years ago now, mein Gott. Nevertheless. The story contained within that post is a tale of understanding what the guides mean, not what they say. You're using what they say to weirdly try and argue against what they mean.

Can we not do that? Like, I'm there with ya, Murderblob tactics suck and people rely on them far too much, but trust me - the gal who wrote the "Murderball is not teamwork" thread - when I say that Void knows his ****.

[Khosumi]

I get that the guides are written with newer or struggling players in mind, I’m not disputing the value of simplifying concepts for someone just trying to survive their first matches.
The problem is that over‑simplifying into “stay with the blob” as the near‑universal rule trains habits that become liabilities later. If a player spends their first hundred matches glued to a deathball, they’re far less likely to develop the map awareness, timing, and independent movement skills needed when the fight doesn’t suit that approach especially in formats like 8v8 where spread control and flanking matter more.
Keeping things beginner‑friendly doesn’t require suppressing tactical variety. You could still teach basic flanking, staggered lines, or simple bait‑and‑switch concepts in accessible ways without overwhelming someone. That way newbies learn survival and start building the instincts for multiple playstyles, instead of having to unlearn deathball dependency later on.
I’m not saying Void doesn’t “know his ****.” I’m saying the way it’s written encourages one mode of play at the expense of others and that shapes newer players’ habits whether or not it’s the deeper intent.

Edited by Khosumi, 12 August 2025 - 07:11 PM.

[LordNothing]

Khosumi, on 12 August 2025 - 03:38 PM, said:

Here.
Let me give you some insight.
Rule One: Coordinate Around Key Units, Not Just Follow

• 
  
  
  
  Rather than blindly following the biggest mech, identify multiple key units across the team’s composition, form coordinated groups.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Join these groups selectively and flexibly, ensuring they cover distinct strategic angles or lanes.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Maintain communication with your immediate support group by voice, text, or in game pinging to adapt quickly as the battle changes.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Avoid trailing a single push that leaves other flank routes exposed. Having multiple firing angles complicate enemy reactions and improve your team's operational presence.

Rule Two: Distributed Eyes and Dynamic Recon

• 
  
  
  
  Light mechs and scouts should actively gain and share crucial intel.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Operate at the edges to contest territory, spot enemy flanks, and disrupt enemy positioning.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Medium and heavy mechs should also contribute intel by sharing observations of priority targets or enemy movements while holding control points or forward positions.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Communication doesn't have to be perfect: quick pings, target tags, or short callouts about enemy locations and movements help build situational awareness for everyone.

Rule Three: Focus Fire and Tactical Prioritization with Mobility

• 
  
  
  
  Concentrate fire on vulnerable or high-priority targets, adapting to the flow of the fight.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Rather than all ganging up in a single cluster, coordinate with your group to focus fire while maintaining spacing that limits exposure to flanking.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Use crossfire by positioning within supporting range of allies on flanks or behind cover.
  
• 
  
  
  
  If a target retreats, shift fire, avoid reckless chasing that breaks formation or leaves positional advantage.

Rule Four: Mutual Support Without Clustering

• 
  
  
  
  Stay close enough to provide mutual fire support and assist teammates under pressure, but avoid tight clumping that limits maneuver options.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Use terrain and cover to support teammates at a distance, creating overlapping fields of fire.
  
• 
  
  
  
  If a teammate is being threatened, assist promptly, but maintain awareness of your positioning to avoid the danger of enemy flanks.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Early map control and forward positioning create safer support lanes and reduce the need for defensive blobs.

Rule Five: Adapt and Break the Mold When Needed

• 
  
  
  
  Situations vary greatly, no fixed formation will win every match.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Recognize when splitting up to control objectives, hold lanes, or execute flanking maneuvers is more beneficial than grouping tightly.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Know your mech’s role, strengths, and weaknesses and adjust dynamically.
  
• 
  
  
  
  When in doubt, communicate your intent clearly or signal your actions to teammates.

Supplemental Tips: Practical Enhancements for Coordination

• 
  
  
  
  Use quick communication tools available like team chat, target spotted calls, and positional markers to provide meaningful intel without needing full voice comms.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Encourage teammates to take varied roles such as harassment, control holding, or dedicated scouting to increase map presence.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Remember, victory often goes to the team with better situational awareness and flexible cooperation and not just the biggest, slowest, or most heavily armed mass.

to be fair this advise is better than most of what you find in puglandia.

the problem with oversimplified advise to new players is that it usually traps them in a rut they can never seem to get out of. more detailed advice like this is how you move out of lower tiers. sometimes you have to unlearn something to learn something better.

as for "Stay close to your Atlas", frankly the last thing i want when im running assault is to have 4 or 5 mechs orbiting me blocking my shots and manuvers, while im still big enough to take most of the return fire. its a good way to cost your team 100 tons. any assault pilot worth their tonnage should know some counter-light tactics to deal with squirrels. all those other mechs do is turn the situation into utter chaos, blocking my manuvers and loading me up with team damage while they try to get the cookie.

lights want to disorganize and confuse the enemy which lets them take pop shots with impunity and damage the enemy with their own guns. also provides bigger mechs an opening to attack. id rather you be half a grid away where its a lot easier to land good shots on them bunnies. you just need to be in line of sight and in weapons range.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 August 2025 - 07:43 PM.

[Void Angel]

Uh... I can't actually find those "quotations" in either of my guides. Maybe they're actually responses buried in the thread somewhere; maybe someone used AI to summarize the guide? That seems unlikely, but these days, who knows? It would explain the hallucination, but in either case I really don't feel obliged to answer for random things I didn't put in the guides - especially without at least some kind of actual citation so that we can see the context of the advice. No word has a meaning outside of context, and I'm dubious as to the provenance - and the context - of these quotes.

In either case the advice isn't designed to be simplified, but general. Newbies aren't going to be blinkered into ruts because the guide tells them that there's exceptions to every rule; it also tells them that this is for uncommunicative teammates. With coordinated teams much of Follow's advice goes out the window, and the post deliberately points this out and encourages flexibility:

Void Angel, on 19 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

stay generally with the team and don't let them cut you out of the pack.

And

Void Angel, on 19 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

These rules are general guidelines that will help those who understand and adopt them to cooperate with each other absent active coordination [emphasis added] ... As with any set of rules, you should understand them as completely as you can - so that you may know when to break them.

... speaking of things that are actually in the guide. If people are actually reading the things again, I should revise them again - it's not like I haven't learned anything in the last decade, even if it's just adding nuance.

[Drenzul]

1453 R, on 10 August 2025 - 07:29 AM, said:

The Murderblob only works because the game is not set up correctly. Mobility should matter, actual coordination should matter. The only reason you can get away with being the seventh Bane in the ten-Bane pile-up is because the game does not punish immobility, and lightweight machines cannot appropriately counter you when there's fourteen other Banes next to your miserable worthless 600-tube LRM boat to cover you from the Evil Scary Fast Guy. 100-ton Giga Turrets should be a niche build that requires actual coordination to work, no the de facto default.

It does, that is why any team that doesn't try and face-plant 1 at a time into the murderblob often wins in 12v12.

1 lance slows them down while the other takes them out from behind.

Void Angel, on 12 August 2025 - 09:04 AM, said:

My Blood Asp has a single +7 armor quirk in one side torso - originally, it had no durability quirks in any component that also contained a weapon mount - and even though it's 90 tons, it goes down fast in a brawl against its weight-class peers. And that's fine, in 12v12. With 8v8, there's less firepower available to put down brawlers as they approach (that firepower was why brawlers have so much extra armor,) so the Blood Asp's interactions with close-range 'mechs can actually be inverted. Rather than controlling mid-range angles with a bunch of autocannons - while the brawler tries to preserve his armor while he gets close - it's the Asp who has to worry about exposing himself too much to shoot at the brawler.

So what you are saying is Brawlers are actually viable because they can actually get into their optimal?

Void Angel, on 12 August 2025 - 02:29 PM, said:

Nope - I'm just analyzing - and I'm right.

Not true; the spaces beyond choke points always have more space available, allowing more teammates to defend a choke than can fit through it. That has an effect.

For camping, you're just incorrect. The whole point of a base camp is that it forces you to hard-engage and inflicts a timer. You don't have time to flank or get creative, and the deathball still works. That's why it's used: it works. And, that's why it will continue to be used in 8v8, which was the point of my illustration.

Not really. If you are all in one location, that means that location can be surrounded, which means you can't easily find cover and are likely taking back shots.

Murderball only really works effectively in PUGs because of lack of communication and team-play. You've often lost several assault that ran head-long into the murder-ball before the flankers can get into position.

Its basically entirely a poor co-ordination/awareness issue.

[Bassault]

Whatever it is, it's a lot closer to teamwork than the zombie "everyone for themselves!!!!" NASCAR

[kalashnikity]

Murderball is too teamwork, 50% of the time it works every time.

[1453 R]

Bassault, on 13 August 2025 - 08:22 AM, said:

Whatever it is, it's a lot closer to teamwork than the zombie "everyone for themselves!!!!" NASCAR

I'd rather a NASCAR match a hundred percent of the time over two Murderblobs grinding against each other like irritable glaciers. There is no match of MWO that is simultaneously more boring, more frustrating, and more pointless than when two groups of hundred-ton legless turrets each post up six hundred meters apart behind random bits of Coverium and spend the next twelve minutes jiggling precisely and exactly nine meters to the left or right to lob a shot uselessly against the other sides Coverium.

When that happens, I honestly feel like it'd be a better use of my time to just park my 'Mech somewhere and go watch a YouTube video, because the chances of any movement or dynamic combat happening in that game have officially become zero, and thus the game's chances of being anything but a painful chore have also become zero.

No thank you. Murderblobbing can die and be forgotten forever, please.