950 replies to this topic

[Melcyna]

That's exactly the point...

battletech fights with mech WITHOUT support a hell a lot... ESPECIALLY infantries which are THE BEST unit for urban scenario... not mech, not tank, not aircraft, given that their tech for sensors and weapon targeting are apparently incredibly poor it makes even less sense that one sends battlemech straight into an urban location without infantry screen and scouts. Infantries have always been the ONLY unit that can fight to the utmost in an urban setting for the most obvious reason being that urban setting is DESIGNED for human use in the first place and how exactly one hide a battlemech in an urban setting without being discovered by infantry screen is... well anyone's guess.

"Don't worry guys, that giant standing in between the building is TOTALLY not a battlemech, it's just part of the city landscape and we totally shouldn't report that back"

And lorewise? mech don't fight in cities? they totally didn't really care of the ares convention or what not, even in lorewise as they've fought enough times within cities, in fact in every mechwarrior games we have one heavy city fights at least. And in most of the novel, there's at least one battle where battlemech just blow the crap out of each other within a city zone (and blasting a good chunk of the city itself in the process).

Gameplay wise, we fight in the city a lot within battletech games because the area do make for excellent gameplay material (that and they are easier to construct by map maker). And for the most part we fight with just battlemech because:
A. in video games it's too much trouble to include the others or to give them proper design and focus, VTOL? tanks? they r totally just decoration in battletech video games of the past if they existed at all within that specific game, they were placed here and there to provide the player with some target to shoot at that isn't a battlemech for the sake of diversity.

B. this is battletech and battlemech are supposed to reign supreme.

never mind of course if the course of action makes ZERO SENSE whatsoever

PS: ironically, in MWLL (Mechwarrior Living Legend) which has the inclusion of Aerospace fighter and Elemental suits and Tanks using mostly battletech rules, the absurdity of mech becomes dead obvious in urban setting or anywhere for that matter.

Bulldogs in city or building street MAULS mech to pieces, aerospace BUTCHERS mech in open ground with their bombs and LBX, and elemental squads are effectively impossible to dislodge from areas with heavy concentration of buildings without the use of elementals of your own.

and this is with mostly battletech stats which are already heavily skewed in favor of battlemechs, if we applied sensible stat that doesn't favor them single handedly the result is going to be a massacre of battlemechs.

For that matter, a similar situation arose in every video game involving big walking mech and other vehicles and infantries put in the same game.

Edited by Melcyna, 01 October 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[KalebFenoir]

The difference with the Ares conventions was that it set things up so that, in the case of an Urban combat situation, the population was usually notified ahead of time to vacate the premises, or head to safe ground. In the cases where they didn't or couldn't, the combatants know that, should they open fire on civilian targets (as opposed to accidentally hitting that skyscraper because a mech stepped behind it), should they do so actively, that if they are defeated and caught, they will be probably branded and killed. If they don't get caught, then a bounty goes out on them, and travel becomes VERY hard unless you have your own jumpship.

Urban combat is frowned on, but not forbidden, though I think it IS forbidden to open fire on things like reactors, factories, government buildings for the most part, and civilian domiciles. Even the mere thought of firing on a HPG relay is something you could be executed---painfully--for. Anything that could cause long-lasting damage, and or loss of knowledge or technology is pretty well forbidden, because that's what the Succession Wars ended up causing to begin with.

[Kaziganthi]

Melcyna, on 01 October 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

ESPECIALLY infantries which are THE BEST unit for urban scenario...

I would take a platoon of SRM carriers over a company of infantry anyday.


You know what they call infantry..PBI's...Poor Bloody Infantry. Which is what they become even going up against the lightest of mechs.

Most units that fought in cities and cause major damage were discredited and found it very hard to find work. Look at what happened to the Grey Death Legion when they were set-up.

Most House units do not choose to fight in cities, they are drawn into them by reckless pilots who have no care for the civilians in the area. And when they do, they are normally guarding major points of interest, like factories, water purification centres, power plants and have the surrounding blocks vacated.

[Melcyna]

Following Battletech logic? yeah...

but thinking of it in terms of what logically would be the case though? hell no, the only reason infantries in battletech is so weak is the simple fact that their equipment is incredibly poor (since they are not the star of the game) and not reflective of their own tech level even before counting battletech version of power armor, nor do they follow the simplest basic concept of warfare.

there's a reason why vehicles AVOID urban fight without heavy infantry escort and screen...

Vehicles of any sort, and pretty much anything larger than human entering urban areas without infantry to probe and protect them is essentially committing suicide, so either the situation is desperate enough to warrant it or they are certain there will be no defender posing trouble resisting them.

The allies learned that over half a century ago, the russians learned that back then too and then the russians learned it AGAIN when they forgotten about it and moved whole armored battalion into a city fight and promptly got massacred by urban fighters armed with anti tank missiles and grenades with mines back during the 1st chechen war

Battlemech? entering a hostile city without infantry escort? Yeah, to anyone with even marginal concept of warfare... that's basically suicide, especially given battletech sensor capability or rather the lack of it's capability.

But naturally it wouldn't look good if the battlemech gets clobbered by "PBI" now wouldn't it?

Quote

Even the mere thought of firing on a HPG relay is something you could be executed---painfully--for. Anything that could cause long-lasting damage, and or loss of knowledge or technology is pretty well forbidden, because that's what the Succession Wars ended up causing to begin with.

Tell that to Liao, they sure as hell don't seems to care... that WoB precentor that got ventilated in the head with needler by Liao? yeah she totally didn't expected to be ventilated in the head either..

[OverTrue]

Jump jets are Jump rockets. How are the mechs stabilized in flight?

[SchnitzlXS]

OverTrue, on 02 October 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Jump jets are Jump rockets. How are the mechs stabilized in flight?

Think Harrier VTOL jet.

[SmoesHammer]

Quietly Crazy, on 31 July 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

-Though the entire galaxy has been searched, only the human race managed to become sentient. No other star system produced what can be considered even semi-intelligent life.

There's a cool link below that shows calculations that try and predict the existence of ET life, it's an interactive thingy. It also shows that scientists (the cynical ones anyway) think that there is only a very small chance of communicable life in the Galaxy but a good chance of in the visible universe.
http://www.bbc.com/f...en-worlds-exist

[Bluescales]

As fascinating as all these points are...

The game lets me pilot a GIANT ******* ROBOT, I couldn't give two ***** about the technical discrepancies of the setting

[Melcyna]

Bluescales, on 02 October 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

As fascinating as all these points are...

The game lets me pilot a GIANT ******* ROBOT, I couldn't give two ***** about the technical discrepancies of the setting

True, but this was the whole point of the thread to start with... i mean if you didn't give a damn thing about discrepancies of the setting or the details then why are you inside a thread called "ridiculous battletech facts"?

it's kinda like those post you see by randoms on generic forum, like for example in a thread about mechwarrior 3 gameplay on a game website some random posted "meh i don't care about mechwarrior" which is all fine and good, to each his own... but why on earth would someone who doesn't give a damn about mechwarrior bother posting about it on a thread ABOUT mechwarrior...

most perplexing behavior...

Edited by Melcyna, 02 October 2012 - 04:44 AM.

[KalebFenoir]

Melcyna, on 02 October 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Tell that to Liao, they sure as hell don't seems to care... that WoB precentor that got ventilated in the head with needler by Liao? yeah she totally didn't expected to be ventilated in the head either..

Well, Liao is a bit of a crazy one anyway. Everyone knows that and is just waiting for him to do something bad enough to deal with him.

As for ventilating the WoB Precentor? PEOPLE are expendable. The tech isn't. Besides, no one likes Word of Blake. XD If Liao had put a few Needler shots into the nearest HPG control panel, he'd have been taken by anyone nearby, maybe his own men, out into the streets and shot. Sure, they fear him, but those priceless relics are so important that even bowing to the chair isn't enough.

Edited by KalebFenoir, 02 October 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Melcyna]

Negative on both actually, after all this is back before WoB started their ludicrous *****... they technically were still neutral at that point, but Liao sure don't seems to care of that when their death commando stormed the HPG station and wiped out it's defenders to allow the chairman a chance to talk with precentor eye to eye... and... well... apply a high velocity needle to her cranium.

that and the idea that they (death commandos) would defy their own head of state over HPG control panel is frankly quite hilarious...

i must admit, i am somewhat entertained by the idea...

anyway, back to the matter... if they value priceless relics or had any sensibility... the succession war wouldn't happened in the first place, and the regression of tech shouldn't happen either despite the war (which ironically is the reverse of what normally happens in war where the participant did not get annihilated).

Of course how such regression happened in the first place MADE NO SENSE anyhow so it was pretty bonkers from the start

[Alois Hammer]

Theodor Kling, on 31 July 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

• Computer systems capable of controlling a fusion power plant inside a moving, jumping, falling etc mech are not capable of getting a decent aim for the weapons.

Firing solution? Pffft- They get bogged down trying to calculate things like "number of toes."



http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tetatae

Quote

Two pairs of forward-reaching toes are matched by a rearward-facing toe for a total of six toes on each foot; a similarly built but smaller pair of appendages serves as arms and hands.

So, according to Mechwarrior computers 4 toes ("Two pairs") plus one toe ("matched by a rearward-facing toe") equals 6 toes?

That's "2 + 2 = 5, for extremely large values of 2" territory!

You're lucky the computer doesn't have you shooting yourself with math like that.

[Skylarr]

SmoesHammer, on 02 October 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

There's a cool link below that shows calculations that try and predict the existence of ET life, it's an interactive thingy. It also shows that scientists (the cynical ones anyway) think that there is only a very small chance of communicable life in the Galaxy but a good chance of in the visible universe.
http://www.bbc.com/f...en-worlds-exist

Very interesting. Thank you for that link. Here is were Richard Dawkins and Neil deGrasse Tyson discuss the possabilty of "Aliens"


Here is another Neil degrasse Tyson Alien vs. Human Intelligence

As stated in other threads BattleTech does state the existance of Neopithecanthropus.

[Skylarr]

Alois Hammer, on 02 October 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

[/list] Firing solution? Pffft- They get bogged down trying to calculate things like "number of toes."



http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tetatae

[/size][/font]

So, according to Mechwarrior computers 4 toes ("Two pairs") plus one toe ("matched by a rearward-facing toe") equals 6 toes?

That's "2 + 2 = 5, for extremely large values of 2" territory!

You're lucky the computer doesn't have you shooting yourself with math like that.

Two pairs of forward-reaching toes are matched by a rearward-facing toe for a total of six toes on each foot; a similarly built but smaller pair of appendages serves as arms and hands.

2+ 2 pointing forward. The there are 2 more pointing Rearward. I calculate 6. Not sure were you got 5 from.

If you look at both picture you will see that they are both different. The Cover shows a bird-like creature with 4 toes and 2 claw like fingers for hands. But, the Picture inside the book shows a bird-like creature with 6 claw like fingers.

[Ralphie]

Bloodweaver, on 04 August 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

The problem -and the reason that this gets included in "ridiculous Battletech facts"- is just how inefficient heat loss is via radiation alone. As in, an object loses so little heat in a vacuum that it's negligible. Real-life spaceships have tons of systems dedicated to keeping themselves from roasting in their own crews' body heat.

And that's why the Appollo 13 crew almost froze to death on their return from the moon?

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Lennex, on 03 August 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I think my personal favorite is the fact they still put pilots in the "head" and provide them with little to no armor.

Yeah, but if you've ever watched the 6 movies that make up the anime series 'Broken Blade' (or Break Blade, in the romanized version of the Japanese title, as opposed to the translated version), you'll find that putting them inside the chest isn't much better. And where else could you put them, other than the chest or the head? Although the point about no armor is definitely right. It should at least be shielded.

[Melcyna]

Spirit of the Wolf, on 02 October 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Yeah, but if you've ever watched the 6 movies that make up the anime series 'Broken Blade' (or Break Blade, in the romanized version of the Japanese title, as opposed to the translated version), you'll find that putting them inside the chest isn't much better. And where else could you put them, other than the chest or the head? Although the point about no armor is definitely right. It should at least be shielded.

Somewhat different case because Break Blade is the opposite of battletech... with weapon fire being quite lethal if not stopped by a shield, effectively equivalent to upsized medieval infantry, where one direct hit even frontally can cripple if not kill.

Battletech gives a somewhat opposite case where we don't carry shields (except for some designs, black knight being one) but it takes repeated hits to even breach the armor of a battlemech.

So in battletech, we end up with situations where battlemech trade and hit each other like 2 boxer on the ring repeatedly exchanging blows with each other until one or both takes enough damage from one another to collapse.

And in this sort of situation you have the softest spot to hit of all from the front in plain view of the enemy... ie: the cockpit with the lowest armor of frontal section on a mech.

Both cases technically makes no sense, but for different reasons and with differing scenario

The case is extra non sensical in general for ground combat because ground battles are so chaotic and lethal if not murderous that something as large as a battlemech having it's cockpit in direct view frontally is basically the equivalent of a general charging out at the front...

Bold... some might say brave even... but ultimately stupid if it's not sufficiently protected since they make for obvious target and thus invites incoming fire.

A battlemech without a pilot is basically a multi dozen ton worthless metal until the battle is over and it can be recovered, therefore the pilot's safety is of the UTMOST importance since the rest of it's part will do no good in battle without the pilot (mechwarrior).

Common sense thus dictates that the pilot should be well protected and covered at least from the direction of the most probable incoming fire (ie: the front).

Edited by Melcyna, 02 October 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[KalebFenoir]

I think there's a balance for the whole 'mech head has almost no armour' and 'pilot is paramount' thing.

You gotta remember that the mech's head, wherever it is located, is relatively small and extremely hard to nail, not because it has its own armour on it, but because it's surrounded by parts of the torso that shield it from direct attacks, even point blank shots.

Take the Zeus for example; the cockpit looks like it has two nice big windowpanes one on top of another. Easy to hit? Nope. For one, the Zeus moves not just with its feet, but rotating its torso, and bringing its arms up and into the line of fire to block. In addition, the construction of the Left and Right torsos (though you don't feel it in the TT, it shows in the artwork), has these collar-like panels of armour that actually rise up and surround the left, right, and rear sections of the head, making it even harder to hit when moving.

Most mechs have defenses like this. Mechs like the Catapult and its kin, though the cockpit is somewhat on the nose of the mech, because the mech can swing that nose away FAST, and the nose itself is a heavily armoured piece of the CT, as well as the section above the 'head' is part of the CT, contributes to its survivability.

The Atlas has a unique one, if you look at MWO's design of it; the head is fully there and visible, smooshed between two big Space Marine-y shoulders, but the actual cockpit is buried somewhere behind the left or right eye (I'm not sure which, and it could probably be either) and that might not even BE the real cockpit, as some variants of the Atlas show light coming from the nose-slit. THAT could be where the real cockpit hides, and if that's the case, look how much armour surrounds that nose. Try imagining yourself in a rival mech, running at-speed, and trying to target that little spot with your big gun. Chances are, it'll splash all over the rest of the head.

One thing BT and Mechwarrior in general don't tend to show (because it's hard), is just how deeply into the mech's head the pilot is actually buried. I don't believe they're just behind a windscreen looking out; I think they're as deep in the head as you can get, surrounded by layers of armour and all the gear that makes up the cockpit and support machinery, looking at a screen where multiple minicams on the head have created an image to be seen. You shoot the head, and you might knock out some cams, but others would take over, and you wouldn't lose screen viability for a while (though in time, enough hits might do that anyway).

I don't take the artwork on the books as canon, or else it'd look like you could take out a Mad Cat with a machinegun by shooting the windows out. But I think there's a little bit of truth there too.

[UnseenFury]

Great thread.

[Dataman]

Synaps3, on 27 September 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

I think its ridiculous that human controlled weapons are still being used.

I don't see why you don't just launch a thousand computer controlled super agile missiles at a lance and be done with it. They would all impact the exact same spot on the armor until it cracked, and be 1/10 the price with no human lives risked at all.

I'm not even sure humans will still be fighting wars at all in a few hundred years. If we fight, it will be fighting by developing software faster and better than the other guys to keep their AIs from breaking into ours.

the cheap way to win AI war is sending footsoldiers