84 replies to this topic

[Casca]

A lot of people are concerned about the differential between Clan and Inner Sphere technology. It is a fairly big issue. People have offered a few suggestions for solutions though most of them boil down to Sibkos and Trials. However a lot of forum posters are wildly offended by the idea. They see elitism and pretentiousness. They seem to think that anything that limits gameplay is instantly negative regardless of context. Many of them then turn around to lament the inevitable migration of players from the Inner Sphere, some even going as far as to imply that these future clansmen are (for lack of a non-MMORPG term) Min/Maxing twinks.

I wish I could but I cannot call myself an old fan. Still, I remember playing the Battletech card game as well as Mechwarrior 2 and Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries and finding anything that had an ER weapon did significantly better than its unextended counterpart. In a fast paced environment like the modern-day shooter, that sort of advantage is wildly unbalancing. I cannot speak to whether or not there are weight and heat differentials between the two sets of weapons but being able to open fire before your opponent in an arena situation (that is to say, an open area with little to no impeding or advantageous terrain) is insanely lopsided. There are only a few ways to balance weapons like that: some would result in overbalance, others would break from the background lore, a few would do both.

That being the case, and the constant whinging of both sides concerning players only concerned with gaining the advantage over their former Inner Sphere allies, why are, at least Trials of Entry, so despicable? The precedence of Clan selectivity was already set by the lore along with the practice of fielding smaller combat units. Furthermore, without the typical limitation on content from other MMO games (i.e. levels and experience points) to keep combat more balanced what is to keep all players switching to the Clans in order to simply improve their ranking and making the point moot?

Trials of Entry would ensure that players dedicated to the skill it takes to fight a lopsided battle, and perhaps, to a smaller degree, the distinct personalities of the Clans. It also would make an in game step toward balancing. If not everyone can qualify to join a Clan, there will be less people in the Clans. If there are less people in the clans there is less likely to be a problem with number balancing. And this would address one other problem that posters have with the Trials. Many opposing the idea somehow believe that players would be in charge of the Trials. This is simply stupid. Who would trust players with control over game balance? I think I can put more trust in Piranha than to assume that they would create balance-disrupting content then depend on players to determine who receives what.

Of course there are better ways to balance the game. Like some of the combat objectives they mentioned in one of the developer podcasts. However why is it so offensive that players be put through additional gameplay to unlock additional gameplay? Yes. Some potential clansmen are asinine but that doesn't mean the idea is bad in and of itself

[ShoveI]

I read a few of the forum posts about this and found a few statements that made pretty good sense to me, albeit it was 4am when i read them. If trials of entry were put in place the problem would come up that there would be more than a few die hard clanners that wouldn't make it through the trial and would just pack it up and leave. The other problem of a majority of players switching to the clans would cause drop times to be wildly skewed. You see this in WoW a lot, the horde have horrendous wait times to get into battlegrounds while the alliance has instant que times. If they don't mind the wait to drop then that's the price they have to pay to have the technological advantage of the clans. Either is really fine with me in that I'm never switching away from the FWLM.

FEAR THE EAGLE!!

[Gremlich Johns]

We few who still maintain the Clan Blood Spirit fully expect our members to participate in a Trial of Entry (ToE). Our practice was that a new member did not "drop" unless they had passed the ToE. All prospectives entered into the Clan with the full knowledge that they would have to subscribe to our rules/protocols. We also do not expect to fully participate in MWO until there is a planetary league or something close to it where CBS can appear. Ladder leagues and public matches, in our mind, are good for little more than training and recruiting.

[Semyon Drakon]

I think trIals should be fought for rank and position. It's in keeping with the fluff, it means better mechwarriors will advance into the higher ranks and get better privelages and will reward those who stick to it, train and get better.

Semyon

[Xavier Truscott]

Casca, on 07 January 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

That being the case, and the constant whinging of both sides concerning players only concerned with gaining the advantage over their former Inner Sphere allies, why are, at least Trials of Entry, so despicable? The precedence of Clan selectivity was already set by the lore along with the practice of fielding smaller combat units. Furthermore, without the typical limitation on content from other MMO games (i.e. levels and experience points) to keep combat more balanced what is to keep all players switching to the Clans in order to simply improve their ranking and making the point moot?

Trials of Entry would ensure that players dedicated to the skill it takes to fight a lopsided battle, and perhaps, to a smaller degree, the distinct personalities of the Clans. It also would make an in game step toward balancing. If not everyone can qualify to join a Clan, there will be less people in the Clans. If there are less people in the clans there is less likely to be a problem with number balancing. And this would address one other problem that posters have with the Trials. Many opposing the idea somehow believe that players would be in charge of the Trials. This is simply stupid. Who would trust players with control over game balance? I think I can put more trust in Piranha than to assume that they would create balance-disrupting content then depend on players to determine who receives what.

Of course there are better ways to balance the game. Like some of the combat objectives they mentioned in one of the developer podcasts. However why is it so offensive that players be put through additional gameplay to unlock additional gameplay? Yes. Some potential clansmen are asinine but that doesn't mean the idea is bad in and of itself

Trials of Entry would apply....had you been cloned and born in a vat on a world far far away from Terra. Unfortunately for most of us, we're just ordinary freeborns on this planet earth. We come here to play a game, we choose a faction, and our actions determine how far we get in that faction. That's the beauty of it....we choose the faction we want to represent....we aren't basing our lives on whether or not we get to be a member of the warrior caste....we start the game that way and the only way to not be a warrior is to not play. Saying that this person or that person needs to undergo a quest or trial or anything else turns this Sim/Shooter game into an RPG. While many, myself included, would love a battletech based MMORPG, this instance of the game is not that.

RP however you like, PGI is looking to pull a profit out of this game, and i'll be one of the people putting some cash into their store to make it happen so that i can have a MW game to play for as long as possible. There will be many people who have no idea of the background of the game and come here just to shoot things with big robots, and they will do the same. To say that your average Joe needs to pass a test to be a part of a faction, which is not led by a player or group of players, is just unreasonable to the bottom line. No one said you have to play with people you don't like, but do not say they can't be on your faction because they don't meet your standards.

[Stormwolf]

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Trials of Entry would apply....had you been cloned and born in a vat on a world far far away from Terra. Unfortunately for most of us, we're just ordinary freeborns on this planet earth. We come here to play a game, we choose a faction, and our actions determine how far we get in that faction. That's the beauty of it....we choose the faction we want to represent....we aren't basing our lives on whether or not we get to be a member of the warrior caste....we start the game that way and the only way to not be a warrior is to not play. Saying that this person or that person needs to undergo a quest or trial or anything else turns this Sim/Shooter game into an RPG. While many, myself included, would love a battletech based MMORPG, this instance of the game is not that.

RP however you like, PGI is looking to pull a profit out of this game, and i'll be one of the people putting some cash into their store to make it happen so that i can have a MW game to play for as long as possible. There will be many people who have no idea of the background of the game and come here just to shoot things with big robots, and they will do the same. To say that your average Joe needs to pass a test to be a part of a faction, which is not led by a player or group of players, is just unreasonable to the bottom line. No one said you have to play with people you don't like, but do not say they can't be on your faction because they don't meet your standards.

And thus a tidalwave of munchkins arrives and ruins the game for the IS players causing many of them to leave (which will cause a drop in store purchases).

Seriously, Clans wouldn't be Clans without trials.

[Xavier Truscott]

Stormwolf, on 08 January 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

And thus a tidalwave of munchkins arrives and ruins the game for the IS players causing many of them to leave (which will cause a drop in store purchases).

Seriously, Clans wouldn't be Clans without trials.

Where do you get that it would ruin the game for the IS players?

I don't recall any info on MWO that cited it would be a RPG, which is the only place that Trials really fit. Sorry, i don't see it as gamebreaking to let people join whichever faction they like.

[Stormwolf]

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Where do you get that it would ruin the game for the IS players?

Haven't you been paying attention for the last 3 months?
There are many people here who fear that many people will swarm to the Clans to abuse the tech ingame. I can't really blame them, especially if the devs implement the canon damages and ranges for Clan tech.

Just randomly play a MW4 multiplayer game, there are tons of munchkins running around in "Daishi's" to get some cheap kills. I predict the same for MWO.

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

I don't recall any info on MWO that cited it would be a RPG, which is the only place that Trials really fit. Sorry, i don't see it as gamebreaking to let people join whichever faction they like.

Two questions, how long have you been part of the BT universe and how familiar are you with the Clan lore?

Edited by Stormwolf, 08 January 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Jack Gammel]

Trails, especially Trials of Grievance, would hardly limit gameplay. If anything Trials would offer an entirely new spectrum of gameplay for Clan players and create a system which demands Clan players to be better mechwarriors.

[Xavier Truscott]

Stormwolf, on 08 January 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Haven't you been paying attention for the last 3 months?
There are many people here who fear that many people will swarm to the Clans to abuse the tech ingame. I can't really blame them, especially if the devs implement the canon damages and ranges for Clan tech.

Just randomly play a MW4 multiplayer game, there are tons of munchkins running around in "Daishi's" to get some cheap kills. I predict the same for MWO.



Two questions, how long have you been part of the BT universe and how familiar are you with the Clan lore?

Been playing BT in some form or other since about 86, and read most of the novels. Played all the MW games, and MW4 is a poor example of the series in my opinion. I was a die hard on MW3, and no, i wasn't a min/max player. My preffered configs were usually mixed missile and energy for various reasons. MW4 multiplayer was a let down for me, and i didn't stay in the multiplayer for long.

What you apparently haven't been paying attention to, is the fact that it will be alot more difficult to level your pilot as a clan player if you break the clan codes of war. That restriction alone won't deter everyone who wants to just min/max, as basic player skill will account for alot as well.

People will play on both sides, clan and IS. The simple reason is this: IS is the starting tech, when the clans are introduced, they will have a great defection to that faction, i'm sure, but as long as the devs balance the game properly, it won't be as much of an advantage as you think. Everyone likes to think that they are the best pilot in the world, but after a while of having to fight greater numbers, people will see the IS as an easier faction. Clans may start with better tech, and will have that advantage for quite a while if the game progression doesn't skip a few years with an update, but most people really don't like being the one that gets double teamed all the time. Regardless of whether or not you can core a player in an alpha from a clan heavy, when you are facing multiple enemies all the time, firing all at you, while you are trying to concentrate on the first mech that hit you because of zell forcing you to choose that opponent so you can gain xp, sides will balance out.

Join a clan, play pick a mech to one on one battle with in a team engagement and you will find commanders like me, who will send in fast experienced scouts to draw your fire while the rest of the company picks you apart with concentrated fire. Oh, yeah, and don't try to save your buddy that is getting beat on by 2 or 3 mechs at once, because you would once again violate zell. Blah....if you don't get it, you've never been in a pvp game that has advantages and disadvantages to both sides. One thing is seen as effective and people flock to it until someone else comes up with a counter for it. Then they all flock to the side with the counter tactic/skill/gear hoping to pick off the other side again. The game will balance, and i would venture to say that the initial invasion of the clans will probably not go as well in this game as it did in the lore.

[Gremlich Johns]

I submit that Trials of Entry/Position will more likely be found in a planetary league (if there is one) vice ladder leagues. That being said, however, there is really nothing keeping a Ladder league Clan (or any other Faction) from instituting Trials of Entry or Position. If you want to be a member of a given Clan/Faction, then you either will observe the team requirements or leave the Clan/Faction. If you do not want to perform trials, do not bother even asking to join a Clan/Faction that requires passage of their Trials as the cost of membership. You waste your time and theirs, otherwise.

I suggest that any potential Clansmen establish their team rules and protocols now while there is no MWO to play. Having a core and stable Keshik in place to adminster Trials to those WILLING to submit to what could be a strict code of conduct will allow clan tech to be limited in appearance when it is finally introduced. The Clans will all possess IS tech. Clan tech (Omni-mech, DHS, extended range beam tech, etc) is not supposed to be plentiful, anyway, resources being limited in Clanspace. A modicum of forced roleplay may be necessary in MWO to mitigate everybody having ready access to clan tech.

[karish]

Anything to do with the Clans is at least a year away from the game and for anyone to say " I am Clan Smoked Monkey Butt" and you will do this to get in is just plain silly for one YOU do not know if you will be able to play the clans unless you rise up the ranks of a house or Merc unit or that you will be able to play the clans at all. Besides sticking to the story lines you have no clue as to what and who the clans are so try and keep that in mind

[Stormwolf]

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Been playing BT in some form or other since about 86, and read most of the novels. Played all the MW games, and MW4 is a poor example of the series in my opinion. I was a die hard on MW3, and no, i wasn't a min/max player. My preffered configs were usually mixed missile and energy for various reasons. MW4 multiplayer was a let down for me, and i didn't stay in the multiplayer for long.

So I take it that you started out as a 3025 player then. You'd recall the reaction of most oldschool players then when the Clans got introduced and were overpowerd compared to their beloved designs back then.

Zell got introduced to balance the overpowered Clan mechs against the far weaker IS. The introduction of level 2 did manage some leveling but it still wasn't enough.

Zell was the TT's primary way of balancing out the game since BV didn't exist back then. In a TT setting you can easily frown upon tech abuse most players will either cave in or leave altogether after a while.

This is far less the case in a videogame where everybody is anomynous and can do whatever they like.

And I agree, MW4 is a bit meh.

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

What you apparently haven't been paying attention to, is the fact that it will be alot more difficult to level your pilot as a clan player if you break the clan codes of war. That restriction alone won't deter everyone who wants to just min/max, as basic player skill will account for alot as well.

Sure a lot of people probably won't even get Zell or the need for trials, hence why I've been going to all the Clan boards and mobilized support from a ton players like Gremlich Jones, Seth, etc.

Setting up a strong base of players who adhere to Clan honor will quickly get people to fall in line with them. Never underestimate the need for people wanting to belong to a group. I don't want to sound aggressive here, maybe I'm wording it wrong with how I wrote it.

I'm convinced that lots of players will eventually read up on a bit of lore to get what the rest is talking about, this will often get them to take a interest in specific factions.

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

People will play on both sides, clan and IS. The simple reason is this: IS is the starting tech, when the clans are introduced, they will have a great defection to that faction, i'm sure, but as long as the devs balance the game properly, it won't be as much of an advantage as you think. Everyone likes to think that they are the best pilot in the world, but after a while of having to fight greater numbers, people will see the IS as an easier faction. Clans may start with better tech, and will have that advantage for quite a while if the game progression doesn't skip a few years with an update, but most people really don't like being the one that gets double teamed all the time. Regardless of whether or not you can core a player in an alpha from a clan heavy, when you are facing multiple enemies all the time, firing all at you, while you are trying to concentrate on the first mech that hit you because of zell forcing you to choose that opponent so you can gain xp, sides will balance out.

I hope you are right here.

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Join a clan, play pick a mech to one on one battle with in a team engagement and you will find commanders like me, who will send in fast experienced scouts to draw your fire while the rest of the company picks you apart with concentrated fire. Oh, yeah, and don't try to save your buddy that is getting beat on by 2 or 3 mechs at once, because you would once again violate zell. Blah....if you don't get it, you've never been in a pvp game that has advantages and disadvantages to both sides. One thing is seen as effective and people flock to it until someone else comes up with a counter for it. Then they all flock to the side with the counter tactic/skill/gear hoping to pick off the other side again. The game will balance, and i would venture to say that the initial invasion of the clans will probably not go as well in this game as it did in the lore.

I think that most people wil only see the tech. Just browse around for a bit on this board, there are tons of threads on what mechs people will pick when they start. Many people who subscribed to a house or mercs unit pick Clan mechs without realizing that the Clans won't exactly be handing those out in 3049.
It's a given that many of them will pick their "Daishi's" just for the power and not for the Clan they just subscribed to.

Edited by Stormwolf, 08 January 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Seth]

I think Clan trials translate very well into a video game format. They are basically canon formats for tournaments which everyone in a combat video game should enjoy. Nothing in the past MechWarrior games could get my heart pumping like a Trial of Position or Bloodright.

[FatSpiderman]

just looking at this from tactical idea, if clan tech is better (which I find it has been from the start as I came into MW in MW3) then IS needs to start upgrading. Though, the point of freeborn is good. Assuming we all technically start as IS by faction, then we'd essentially be making IS made Clans....wow that sounded weird... But none-the-less, if this would be true any trueborn strict clans are instantly out of thought, as we would be freeborn pilots. Though my favorite clan is now IS so it doesn't really affect me much (hidden sadness)


Anyway point being point (sorry about my little off distraction) if Clans have better weapons, then the natural response is make better weapons, or steal and/or improve on the enemies. So in this state, it seem the IS have been twiddling their thumbs.

But on point of trials or no trials, I say yes for clans (as they had them) and no for IS (as they are huge). This makes clans smaller then IS (as I believe they were/are). As far as gameplay wise, I guess give Clan drops simply smaller then IS drops. The only execption that could break that, that I can see would be clan v clan and IS v Clan (clan owned world). just to give some ideas...

[Xavier Truscott]

Stormwolf, on 08 January 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

So I take it that you started out as a 3025 player then. You'd recall the reaction of most oldschool players then when the Clans got introduced and were overpowerd compared to their beloved designs back then.

Zell got introduced to balance the overpowered Clan mechs against the far weaker IS. The introduction of level 2 did manage some leveling but it still wasn't enough.

Zell was the TT's primary way of balancing out the game since BV didn't exist back then. In a TT setting you can easily frown upon tech abuse most players will either cave in or leave altogether after a while.

This is far less the case in a videogame where everybody is anomynous and can do whatever they like.

And I agree, MW4 is a bit meh.

Yeah, my first core group when i was in school was so excited about clan tech when it came out, and while we quickly realized that it was overpowered, we adapted it with salvage rules. Basically, we had a "you keep what you kill" type of thing as our campaign was also played a bit as an RPG (we were big rpg gamers from a young age, i actually had the first basic D&D box set the year it came out). In our first match, my lance commander was standing on level 1 elevation when a masakari (the name it was given in TRO 3050) ran right up to it, our GM thought he was just going to be able to take me out quick that way, because i was probably the most vocal about facing all these big new mechs with shiny new weapons. As it turned out, his dice rolls weren't cooperating, and on the physical attack phase, i kicked the thing with my rusty old T-bolt, and because of elevation, kicked on the punch table....straight to head, and we got our first salvagable clan mech. After that, the total tonnage was the balance for the match and we all ended up with parts and i think 2 mechs out of it.

[FatSpiderman]

Xavier Truscott, on 08 January 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

(we were big rpg gamers from a young age, i actually had the first basic D&D box set the year it came out). In our first match, my lance commander was standing on level 1 elevation when a masakari (the name it was given in TRO 3050) ran right up to it, our GM thought he was just going to be able to take me out quick that way, because i was probably the most vocal about facing all these big new mechs with shiny new weapons. As it turned out, his dice rolls weren't cooperating, and on the physical attack phase, i kicked the thing with my rusty old T-bolt, and because of elevation, kicked on the punch table....straight to head, and we got our first salvagable clan mech. After that, the total tonnage was the balance for the match and we all ended up with parts and i think 2 mechs out of it.

(kinda off topic but w/e): epic win right there. wish I knew enough of D&D to do some rp at my house, I got plenty of die and one 20sided for my own use .

[T0RC4ED]

Casca, on 07 January 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

I wish I could but I cannot call myself an old fan. Still, I remember playing the Battletech card game as well as Mechwarrior 2 and Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries and finding anything that had an ER weapon did significantly better than its unextended counterpart. In a fast paced environment like the modern-day shooter, that sort of advantage is wildly unbalancing. I cannot speak to whether or not there are weight and heat differentials between the two sets of weapons but being able to open fire before your opponent in an arena situation (that is to say, an open area with little to no impeding or advantageous terrain) is insanely lopsided. There are only a few ways to balance weapons like that: some would result in overbalance, others would break from the background lore, a few would do both.

Trials are a great way to solve issues of all sorts, especially rank and salvage rights. I wouldnt worry about people flocking to the clans too much, there will be a fair ammount of players like me that will stick with the IS. As for clan weapons being better... Yes and no... The clan ballistic weapons are better, but the IS has counters to that as well. Clan energy weapons can be better and worse. They are lighter in some cases and have more damage and longer range, but they have an issue with generating lots of heat. which will require more heat sinks and as a result a lighter load out.Or skimping on something IE Armor/engine power. (This is of course assuming we will be playing on servers that have limited ammo and heat turned on) Urban environments are something we all know we are going to be fighting in so there will likely be ways to advance on enemy targets from cover, this helps counter the longer range issue. Most importantly, skill and team work will almost always beat a slightly better toy. To be honest I think the IS will have a leg up on the clans because IS pilots will have higher grade equipment when the clans arrive since we are all going to start out as IS pilots. Unless the GMs force things to happen I think the clan invasion will not go nearly as well as it did initially in the lore.

Edited by T0RC4ED, 08 January 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Casca]

Xavier, I understand your candor. But I am not suggesting what you seem to think I am suggesting. It is not necessarily an RP element. A Trial of Entry, as an element of gameplay, ignoring the rest of the Zell as not all components of the Zell translate easily to a game of this style, would simply be a specific kind of engagement. The Trial of Engagement would simply be a fight against a Clansmen who has already been granted the right to pilot Clan 'Mechs and progess in rank among the Clans (or an appropriate AI equivalent.) I am not suggesting that Freeborn/Trueborn even be a concern. Simply that the entry fee for piloting a Clan 'Mech (to reduce Munchkin migration and to introduce a, perhaps limited, balancing component to combat the tech differential) is to fight a battle under strict conditions.

A player may still choose to join a Clan or Inner Sphere house freely. However without succeeding in a Trial of Position, a player who chooses a Clan, is still limited in 'Mech and armament choice. If other Zell regulations are put into play, as you and the Devs have indicated is very likely, proving that you are at least competent enough to complete a Trial is probably in the Clansmen's best interests.

And though the game always has natural balances built in by the Dev Team and modified by the players, it would be a way to introduce new players to the lore, to add a new game mechanic or mode, mildly discourage Munchkins and Min/Maxers and introduce your "average Joe" to the challenges they should expect for the privilege of receiving increased technological power. Furthermore a Trial, especially of Entry, does not have to be an overwhelming Norse epic designed to keep everyone but the highest echelons of players from playing with Clan tech. If one remembers Mechwarrior 2, the Trial of Entry was not especially difficult. It was simply a small conflict intended to enrich the lore.

A game does not have to be single player or RPG to have an engaging background or lore. And of course a player is free to ignore any implications that my have toward roleplay and simply enjoy a short reprieve from normal combat and partake in something more structured and be rewarded for success.

Edited by Casca, 09 January 2012 - 01:18 AM.

[Ralinos]

Won't they be having bidding wars between clans to see who can engage in a battle? That could be a huge difference if Clans had to announce what they are bringing to a fight, and underbid all other clans for the honor of combat.