Jump to content

Does Honor still have a place?


318 replies to this topic

#181 Jakob Knight

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Giant Helper
  • Giant Helper
  • 1,286 posts

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:54 AM

View PostKay Wolf, on 18 October 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Jakob Knight, that is a fantastic description of the difference between honor and pride. To be honest, I've never considered that part of the argument, so it is fascinating to me nonetheless. Pride and hubris, if I'm not mistaken, are roughly the same thing, no?



My own opinion is that they aren't exactly the same thing. Hubris is pride beyond that to which one is 'entitled', or has earned through actions, but a person can still be guilty of pride in doing their job. Again, not the same as honor, as a man who slaughters the families of surrendered hostages can still feel pride in the act even if firmly believing they are doing no more than their duty. That does not make them honorable, but I would not call them guilty of hubris.

That is my own opinion, though.

#182 Jakob Knight

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Giant Helper
  • Giant Helper
  • 1,286 posts

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:15 AM

View PostWilliam Knight, on 18 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:


The British fought in bright coats and in line so that the General could see what his men were doing.
The British also made use of full camouflage right from the start of the American revolution (in fact they* used full camouflage against the French during the French and Indian War). So the British were not being foolish but in fact being quite sensible.

*Some units.

Sorry, but i'm one of those guys that would happily shoot you in the back. Practicalities of War you understand.



As in many things evolved over centuries, there are many facets to why something was done. The fighting in ranks was as much because a solid wall of musket shots tended to be needed to hit a target reliably (and do enough damage to an enemy force to make an impact) as it was for the morale of the infantry. Similarly, the bright colors did help the Generals organize a fight, but they were just as importantly a badge of office for the troopers, telling all they were facing the British, the best of the best armies in the world (go tell a Highlander he can't wear his kilt, or a British Grenadier Guardsman he can't wear his cap badge if you don't think this is true). That this all put them at a disadvantage during the fight was seen as an unfortunate part of modern war by the Generals, and it should be noted that they did, indeed, tend to push the Colonial forces around at will when they encountered them in force, until near the end.

My point was that the British -idea- of honor was, in fact, pride. Oh, it had the remnants of the honor it was descended from, but by that time the British had been the dominant world power for long enough for the primary reason for a British trooper to serve in the conflict to be more pride than honor. The thought of a group of colonies uprising against their sovereign lord and master was probably more of a motivation than any idea of preserving the Empire to those troops who weren't just collecting some coin at the Crown's expense.

However, it is noteworthy that both sides refrained (most of the time) (officially) from things we would term 'dishonorable'. Both saw themselves as civilized people, and strived to keep agreements made as well as conduct themselves in such a way. By contrast, quite a few other wars of the period featured things such as slaughtering prisoners, enslavement, torture, elimination of the families of the combatants, and conscription of children. While one might argue about differing moral codes in differing parts of the world, there are some things any civilization must recognize as dishonorable if it is to remain stable and existant, and almost all come up with standards people across the world would understand on a basic level (even if they scratched their heads at some of the ways they were implemented).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 18 October 2013 - 08:23 AM.


#183 Woopass

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Fire
  • Fire
  • 209 posts
  • LocationTacoma, WA

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:59 AM

View PostTilley, on 09 January 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

After reading on an old clan website from MW:4, I remember just how much focus was placed on the honor system. Back then, there were certain cheats that most people knew about and knew how to spot when used. I'm just curious if honor will play such a role in the upcoming MW:0. If I remember correctly, during a lance battle, legging the opponent was considered cheap and dishonorable. I am by no means suggesting that this rule is followed now, but wondering what online ground rules some of the clans might decide to choose. Often times, legging a smaller mech was the only way to hit the d*mn thing and get it to slow down. Legging is just an example, just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts about honor and it's uses for online play.



I see nothing wrong with legging as long as you are on the lower end of an uneven tonage ratio. If I am in a medium or heavy and there is a fresh assault mech. Yes I am gonna take the legs out. for many reasons. Like, less armor (more obvious) and most likely they have stripped armor of to free up the weight. But most importantly of all I want to survive.

#184 Tilley

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • LocationTN

Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:11 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 15 October 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:


Does this help us win?

If Yes: DO IT.

My honor system in a nutshell.


If everything is about the win, then you are missing the point. Would you purposely attack an enemy who is in the middle of a sanctioned duel, just to get the win? Hopefully not, that would be dishonorable. Would you team kill numerous pilots because you didn't like their playing style? Probably not, that would be dishonorable. When I originally posted this topic, it was not about what had been dishonorable in the past mechwarrior games, but what would be honorable in MW:O. Now that the game has launched and been on our screens for some time, honor has its place. Whether or not it will be rewarded or even tracked by PGI remains to be seen. However you consider it, I bet you there will still be honorable battles against pilots of renouned skill. To the point, some may never experience the honor system nor the glory of battling one of these legendary pilots. To that, I say you are missing out on all the fun, and making this game a simple gr1nd 4 L3wt.

Edited by Tilley, 18 October 2013 - 03:12 PM.


#185 Tilley

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • LocationTN

Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:22 PM

View PostWoopass, on 18 October 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:



I see nothing wrong with legging as long as you are on the lower end of an uneven tonage ratio. If I am in a medium or heavy and there is a fresh assault mech. Yes I am gonna take the legs out. for many reasons. Like, less armor (more obvious) and most likely they have stripped armor of to free up the weight. But most importantly of all I want to survive.


I'm sorry some of you mistakenly thought this was about legging and that the act was not honorable. I was using that as an example of previous Mechwarrior games where the common ideology was that legging was considered dishonorable. That was PAST games..I was more fishing for what people thought honor was going to look like in MW:O. I leg any light that comes near me, otherwise that light is going to run circles and take out my back armor. That is accepted by most pilots that I have come into contact with.

#186 Threat Doc

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Bowman
  • The Bowman
  • 3,715 posts
  • LocationO'Shaughnnessy MMW Base, Devon Continent, Rochester, FedCom

Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:05 PM

Tilley, I think the way this version of MechWarrior has been constructed, we will be able to get back to the basics of honor, and not really have to worry all that much about those things that were established in MW games of the past. The question is, how is that honor to be defined?

Edited by Kay Wolf, 18 October 2013 - 04:06 PM.


#187 Tilley

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • LocationTN

Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:56 PM

It is already shaping up in the PUGS. We have two current variations of gameplay as I type this, assault and conquest. In assault, if the opposing team decides to NOT exchange fire but to sneak over and cap the base, it is shunned. Whether or not that is dishonorable is the question. When you look at the objective, one base each, lots of middle ground to find the enemy...it seems logical to want to get to the opposing teams base to cap. However, due to having no other game type where killing the opponent is the objective, many have used assault as team deathmatch. That is why we get whiners if the base is capped within 2 minutes of gameplay. Personally, I also feel as though you are missing the point if you neglect battle in the assault game type. Conquest on the other hand is specifically designed to cap and to fight over those bases. Without the tonnage limit, it's nearly impossible to balance a PUG with lights, mediums, etc in order to truly run the game types as they should be done. This is the beauty of 12 man drops, limited as they are. So where does honor come in at this time? Could you not agree during the "ready" time period that no one caps? That this is a battle to the death? Yes and no...The game is just not ready for pre-drop agreements, unless you find a PUG full of legendary thinkers.

#188 CyclonerM

    Tina's Warrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 5,685 posts
  • LocationA 2nd Wolf Guards Grenadiers JumpShip

Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:22 AM

Honor? I apply Zellbrigen when possibile.
Sadly it can be effectively applied only against other Clan units who agree to employ it or in internal honor duels and competitions.

#189 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:14 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 19 October 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Honor? I apply Zellbrigen when possibile.
Sadly it can be effectively applied only against other Clan units who agree to employ it or in internal honor duels and competitions.

The Dragoons proved that using Zellbrigen against the Draconis Combine is supposed to be Well accepted. Now will it hold true with the Kuritans of MW:O?

#190 CyclonerM

    Tina's Warrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 5,685 posts
  • LocationA 2nd Wolf Guards Grenadiers JumpShip

Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:23 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 19 October 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

The Dragoons proved that using Zellbrigen against the Draconis Combine is supposed to be Well accepted. Now will it hold true with the Kuritans of MW:O?

Neg.

#191 Tilley

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • LocationTN

Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:08 PM

I would not concern yourselves with my Kuritan brothers. Your pilots are not ready, lest you invite a massacre?

#192 CyclonerM

    Tina's Warrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 5,685 posts
  • LocationA 2nd Wolf Guards Grenadiers JumpShip

Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostTilley, on 19 October 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I would not concern yourselves with my Kuritan brothers. Your pilots are not ready, lest you invite a massacre?

I concern myself with your casual "Kuritan" brothers who do not even know what is a tatami and joined the DC only because their emblem looks cool ;)

#193 Tilley

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • LocationTN

Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:31 PM

I'd be concerned with our casual pilots as well..you certainly aren't ready for our elite.

Edited by Tilley, 19 October 2013 - 05:17 PM.


#194 Threat Doc

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Bowman
  • The Bowman
  • 3,715 posts
  • LocationO'Shaughnnessy MMW Base, Devon Continent, Rochester, FedCom

Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:55 PM

Alright, ladies, don't get your panties in a bunch. Why don't you knock off and go share a beer?


;)

Edited by Kay Wolf, 19 October 2013 - 01:56 PM.


#195 Threat Doc

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Bowman
  • The Bowman
  • 3,715 posts
  • LocationO'Shaughnnessy MMW Base, Devon Continent, Rochester, FedCom

Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:41 AM

This is one merc you can count on to fight honorably. By the way, someone's really going to have to prove to me that Clan honor is actually honor at all. I've yet to see anyone, in the entirety of MechWarrior play, actually fight honorably.

#196 CyclonerM

    Tina's Warrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 5,685 posts
  • LocationA 2nd Wolf Guards Grenadiers JumpShip

Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostKay Wolf, on 21 October 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

This is one merc you can count on to fight honorably. By the way, someone's really going to have to prove to me that Clan honor is actually honor at all. I've yet to see anyone, in the entirety of MechWarrior play, actually fight honorably.

If you meet us in a premade we may agree in fighting the battle following Zellbrigen :)

#197 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:43 AM

View PostJaroth Winson, on 21 October 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:


No that would would be Drakenveld who now calls himself Longwei Liao. I was speaking of another dezgra surat.



Indeed.

Posted Image

Very good. Thank You. If Murphy's hasn't we will look into adding him to our list.

#198 dal10

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • 4,525 posts
  • Locationsomewhere near a bucket of water and the gates of hell.

Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:37 AM

View PostJaroth Winson, on 21 October 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:


No that would would be Drakenveld who now calls himself Longwei Liao. I was speaking of another dezgra surat.



Indeed.

Posted Image

don't worry, longwei got kicked out of house liao as well. he is now with a st. Ives group.

#199 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:39 AM

View Postdal10, on 21 October 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

don't worry, longwei got kicked out of house liao as well. he is now with a st. Ives group.

You would think that St Ives was a better judge of character! :)

#200 dal10

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • 4,525 posts
  • Locationsomewhere near a bucket of water and the gates of hell.

Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:43 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 21 October 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

You would think that St Ives was a better judge of character! :)

meh, he got kicked out for being a unit wide poison. That plus he claimed to the leader of our star citizen section's face that he was promised a carrier from starting gate for donating 10 grand to the game.

Zefninja contacted Cloud imperium games (chris robert's studio producing the game) and they said no one had been promised a carrier. Longwei kept pushing that he had one and claimed it was under a NDA so CIG couldn't tell him that he had one.

We banned him the next day. Dude had one of the original model Idris's which hurts to lose, but we are better off in the long run.





14 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 14 guests, 0 anonymous users