600 replies to this topic

[Dihm]

Mason Grimm, on 11 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

snip

Very nicely written up Mason. I'm all for Option 3, I'd be happy with Option 1, and I'll be a very sad panda with Option 2.

Given that we have Garth "liking" this post though:

Red Beard, on 10 January 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

I am all for unlimited re-spawns, in every match type. I disagree that respawning breeds bad play. I also disagree that most gamers want respawns because they are impatient. I think that most gamers simply want to play. If you are killed in the first few minutes, it's easy to say, that what you want is to have that player not be able to respawn in that match, but it becomes different when it's you. I know that I grow my skills much faster when I can respawn and get right back into the fight. I also want to get the most out of the time that I can set aside to play. I hate to think that if I have 3 hours to play, that only one third of that time is actually used to be playing. I see that as a formula for failure. Players want to play. I don't want to play any mini-game or go do something else with the time that I have to play. I want to PLAY. I can see no respawn matches working something like hardcore modes in other games. Other than that, this whole "respawn" issue is on thin ice. I cannot see a way to make no respawns the norm without losing a large piece of the potential player base.

I think I'm going to be a sad panda and we'll have in-match respawn. MechWarrior, CoD style. Maybe planetary conquest matches will still get a no-respawn setting, but I won't hold my breath. Oh well, I guess I'll have to live with disappointment in that feature of gameplay and figure out a way to make it work/be fun.

Note: This is a big assumption based on the fact that Garth "liked" one post and not others, it is in no way definitive.

Edited by Dihm, 11 January 2012 - 07:23 AM.

[T0RC4ED]

Dihm, on 11 January 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I think I'm going to be a sad panda and we'll have in-match respawn. MechWarrior, CoD style. Maybe planetary conquest matches will still get a no-respawn setting, but I won't hold my breath. Oh well, I guess I'll have to live with disappointment in that feature of gameplay and figure out a way to make it work/be fun.

Look on the bright side... more mech kills = more exp of all kinds and more salvage... turn that frown upsidedown

[Adridos]

What do you think about my system Mason? It is basically the first option with some flaws fixed. It's on the second page I think.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Mason Grimm, on 11 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

.

Option #1 - Exit the Match and Find Another One (WoT Style)

...
Option #2 - Respawn While Match is in Progress

...
Option #3 - Dagnabit, I Died!!! Now I've Gotta Sit This Out

...

While your options are well defined, there are a couple things I would point out:

"Death has no meaning" How do you know there are no other penalties for death. Imagine if every time you die you lose XP, cash, etc. Even in an unlimited respawn enviroment losing XP for each death would hurt a lot.

Further, penalize players for death too much (forced to wait out the rest of the match or large XP penalty) and it only encourages camping.

While teamplay/units is fun and important, the majority of MWO games will be randomly generated teams, aka "pub play". There isn't much benefit to "Cohesive unit learning" when the players don't know eachother let alone regularly play with eachother.

Even if Option #3 was implemented, there is nothing stopping someone from quitting the game and finding a new match anyway. So option #3 and #1 are effectively the same. Unless the team automatically loses if a dead player quits. Which would only succeed in having pickup games with random people impossible. Even if you lock the entire user account so it cannot join new matches until the one the player quit ends, accounts are free.

With how much emphasis the devs are talking about information warfare, I seriously doubt if dead players will be able to watch the game. There is too much opportunity for ghosting.

[Black Sunder]

Red Beard, on 10 January 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

I am all for unlimited re-spawns, in every match type.

I disagree that respawning breeds bad play. I also disagree that most gamers want respawns because they are impatient. I think that most gamers simply want to play. If you are killed in the first few minutes, it's easy to say, that what you want is to have that player not be able to respawn in that match, but it becomes different when it's you. I know that I grow my skills much faster when I can respawn and get right back into the fight. I also want to get the most out of the time that I can set aside to play. I hate to think that if I have 3 hours to play, that only one third of that time is actually used to be playing. I see that as a formula for failure. Players want to play. I don't want to play any mini-game or go do something else with the time that I have to play. I want to PLAY.

I can see no respawn matches working something like hardcore modes in other games. Other than that, this whole "respawn" issue is on thin ice. I cannot see a way to make no respawns the norm without losing a large piece of the potential player base.

Then go find another game to play if this doesn't have respawns because it sounds like you're one of those people who runs in guns blazing and dies quick.

[Bernardo Sinibaldi]

Dihm, on 11 January 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I think I'm going to be a sad panda and we'll have in-match respawn. MechWarrior, CoD style. Maybe planetary conquest matches will still get a no-respawn setting, but I won't hold my breath. Oh well, I guess I'll have to live with disappointment in that feature of gameplay and figure out a way to make it work/be fun.

Note: This is a big assumption based on the fact that Garth "liked" one post and not others, it is in no way definitive.

I wouldn't be disappointed yet - the devs / administrators have shown a certain amount of cheekiness in their posts to date with some fairly obvious tongue-in-cheek comments. Stick around, let's see what information is officially released and make a call once more facts are known. It's early days yet after all.

I'm still holding out hope that no-respawn is what they implement - it would be a real shame to put so much effort into the more sim side of this (as they seem to be doing) and then destroy any suggestions of realism (artificial and sci-fi though they may be) by running with re-spawns.

[Mason Grimm]

Adridos, on 11 January 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

What do you think about my system Mason? It is basically the first option with some flaws fixed. It's on the second page I think.

I did read that earlier. Like an aircraft or truck or whatever comes to get you idea and it would make a great cutscene but I am not quite sure of what the purpose of it would be? Why a 1 minute delay? What happens in that 1 minute?

I did like the idea of reduced experience being given if you leave early etc. but I don't think they'd ever be able to make something like that stick without the player base grabbing the collective torch and pitch fork and heading up here to Canada.

eldragon, on 11 January 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

"Death has no meaning" How do you know there are no other penalties for death. Imagine if every time you die you lose XP, cash, etc. Even in an unlimited respawn enviroment losing XP for each death would hurt a lot.

Unfortunately that is supposition at this point. I am only going on what we KNOW versus what we speculate.

eldragon, on 11 January 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Further, penalize players for death too much (forced to wait out the rest of the match or large XP penalty) and it only encourages camping.

A very valid and true point however I don't think it will be as prolific as all that. You will get that regardless and in the end they can't please us all.

eldragon, on 11 January 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

While teamplay/units is fun and important, the majority of MWO games will be randomly generated teams, aka "pub play". There isn't much benefit to "Cohesive unit learning" when the players don't know eachother let alone regularly play with eachother.

I disagree but i can see the logic behind your statement. As an individual I can still look at my roles within a unit and say "Wow, I totally did not do well in that role" or I can say "I worked well with this group in that role. I may try that again". Again, it's all pure speculation at this point.

eldragon, on 11 January 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Even if Option #3 was implemented, there is nothing stopping someone from quitting the game and finding a new match anyway. So option #3 and #1 are effectively the same. Unless the team automatically loses if a dead player quits. Which would only succeed in having pickup games with random people impossible. Even if you lock the entire user account so it cannot join new matches until the one the player quit ends, accounts are free.

I am unsure as to what you are getting at here? It is impossible to police every action a player does so yes, a player can quit the game, come back in under another account and play. But that can happen in any game, no?

• Log out to windows, come back in, load up a new account, play another match.

Nothing anyone can do will change that. Would the team still dropped lose? No and I don't believe I suggested that anywhere in my post. Yes, accounts are free and thus far nobody has said "thou shalt not have more than one account".

eldragon, on 11 January 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

With how much emphasis the devs are talking about information warfare, I seriously doubt if dead players will be able to watch the game. There is too much opportunity for ghosting.

This is a very valid point. HOWEVER if implemented correctly is moot. If you are a floating camera the only thing you can see are what the other elements of your drop/unit can see. For instance I died and am floating around, you are able to see that enemy catapult (LOS) and thus I am able to see him. You already know where he is so it doesn't matter that I know where he is.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 11 January 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Dlardrageth]

T0RC4ED, on 11 January 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Look on the bright side... more mech kills = more exp of all kinds and more salvage... turn that frown upsidedown

Yeah, and you can also adapt your playstyle to it. Just get a fast light throwaway Mech and leeroy it repeatedly into the enemy if you want to farm LP/XP (might not even need to fire your weapns or have any mounted). No need for fancy gameplay, heck, you might even see a few bots for that. But I assume PGI is away of these issues, so we'll reap what they sow.

[Adridos]

Mason Grimm, on 11 January 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

I did read that earlier. Like an aircraft or truck or whatever comes to get you idea and it would make a great cutscene but I am not quite sure of what the purpose of it would be? Why a 1 minute delay? What happens in that 1 minute?

It's just a basic time that forces people not to rush. You know, if it was instant like in WoT, but with the mech ready, because not many people have 10 tanks like guys over at WoT do, you could rush, get exp, repeat as many times as you want. But that minute is just an example, II thought of it as the time it takes that cutscene to finish. It could also be random what appears, so it won't get stereotipical after 1-3 matches and could take a lot less time, just to give them some sort of penalty because even with not getting all the exp, rushing and dying over and over would get even more productive than normal playing after a while. But as I said, this is based on WoT, its measures, etc., so it doesn't have to be 100% true.

Edited by Adridos, 11 January 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[Fooooo]

Having respawns doesn't always mean there wont be teamwork or people dont "value" their lives.

Example.........

Wolfenstein : Enemy Territory or Quake Wars..., the game has a set time limit and objectives 1 side must complete in series to progress through the map, and the other side must defend. ( In competition Stopwatch is used, so each side trys to beat the others time of completing the objectives )

This game has tons of teamwork and tactics involved and contains group respawns on set timers.

Granted the Pub scene is pretty much void of much teamwork...it is there sometimes, but the clans & competition side of the game is excellent and still going strong. (faction / merc corps / clan players in MW:O are the competitive side to me so will want to work as a team)

As we know MW:O will contain objectives to complete (at least in some battles afaik), so having respawns "can" work here as long as the objectives aren't just "blow up this building" using your weapons, they have to be more complex than that.

It becomes a constant moving front as you take 1 objective and then try to push the next etc etc so the respawns could be simulating "reinforcements" in the grander scheme of things.

That said, i don't necessarly want a system like that in place for the whole game, I think as an optional game-mode it would be a nice addition tho if they can do it right....

[Dihm]

Bernardo Sinibaldi, on 11 January 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

I wouldn't be disappointed yet - the devs / administrators have shown a certain amount of cheekiness in their posts to date with some fairly obvious tongue-in-cheek comments. Stick around, let's see what information is officially released and make a call once more facts are known. It's early days yet after all.

I'm still holding out hope that no-respawn is what they implement - it would be a real shame to put so much effort into the more sim side of this (as they seem to be doing) and then destroy any suggestions of realism (artificial and sci-fi though they may be) by running with re-spawns.

Not quite sure what I said that made you think there was a danger of me giving up on MWO. I'm a realist, not all of the game features will be exactly what I want, I'm fine with that. Doesn't mean I can't be sad about it.

Dlardrageth, on 11 January 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Yeah, and you can also adapt your playstyle to it. Just get a fast light throwaway Mech and leeroy it repeatedly into the enemy if you want to farm LP/XP (might not even need to fire your weapns or have any mounted). No need for fancy gameplay, heck, you might even see a few bots for that. But I assume PGI is away of these issues, so we'll reap what they sow.

That's exactly the kind of stuff I hope never happens.

[Adridos]

Foòóoo, on 11 January 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Having respawns doesn't always mean there wont be teamwork or people dont "value" their lives.

Respawning is mostly for action oriented FPSs, but this is not Hawken (or whatever is the name of that thing). We value our mechs and lives and getting that freaky Mad Cat respawn right after we hardly kill it with all we have is not... right.

[Bernardo Sinibaldi]

Dihm, on 11 January 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Not quite sure what I said that made you think there was a danger of me giving up on MWO. I'm a realist, not all of the game features will be exactly what I want, I'm fine with that. Doesn't mean I can't be sad about it.


That's exactly the kind of stuff I hope never happens.

'never thought you'd give up - I was just saying don't be disappointed / sad quite yet. Let's see what tomorrow brings and keep our fingers crossed it's not a multitude of resurrected 'mechs spawning all over the place!

Edited by Bernardo Sinibaldi, 11 January 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[Fooooo]

Adridos, on 11 January 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Respawning is mostly for action oriented FPSs, but this is not Hawken (or whatever is the name of that thing). We value our mechs and lives and getting that freaky Mad Cat respawn right after we hardly kill it with all we have is not... right.

Well I wasn't advocating for instant respawns if you read my whole post....

It would be a group respawn on either a timer or done via the battlegrid. (not each person has their own timer or instantly respawns when they die like q3 or something that would be silly)

If it were done via battlegrid each team gets a set amount of reinforcement calls that have a cooldown.

You could even have it instead of a dead player becoming a reinforcement (respawning), the battle sizes start at 50vs50, but most are sitting on the bench as reinforcements until called in.

The basic idea is when its done with progressive objectives it is basically simulating a whole regiment/platoon whatever fighting for a few oil rigs or weapons plants etc etc. instead of just 1 engagement of a few lances on an off flank.

I also said I wouldn't want it to be the "only" game type.

Edited by Foòóoo, 11 January 2012 - 08:36 AM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Regarding the OP,

In the end, MWO is a sim balanced with action. I can guarantee you that they will not skimp on action and make people wait unnecessarily. I think its safe to assume that there wont be just 1 type of no-respawn match. There will probably be several types of drops such as FFA, TD, STB, CTF, STB, Co-op, etc that are instant respawn while also having mission drops like league matches with no respawn.

[Unclecid]

fryulator, on 10 January 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

A minigame of BT-themed pong dominates your screen for the rest of the match

make that peggle instead of pong and you gotsa deal!!

[Belrick]

I'm loving Mason's option 3! Dlardrageth had some good ideas too heheh.

I feel if (and I am completely against it in any match of value) and only if respawn was available in the same match, it'd be on a tonnage based drop system. So in the given example, the scout mech pilot has I dunno say 80 tons worth of mech to work with, while someone who died early on in an assault mech would have to sit out for being so silly.

[KingCobra]

From my point of veiw after playing TT,PC Mechwarrior,and 50 other mech type games and MMO's,ECT plus countlass other game types for 20 years (you cant do a CBT,TT,Sim,Waves,FFP,planitary,solaris)and expect gamers to play it and make the community grow.Sure the hardcore fans will play it and maybe a few others but it wont be a huge hit with all the nifty games on the market today.You need a better plan to rake in the fans,newplayers,and the money to make it a sucsess.Also you need respawn for the new players in there own battle arenas so they can play and play and play and make some impact on the Planitary map.Then you need a serious hardcore approch where house,clan,merc,ect players and teams can make real Map changing difference depending on there objectives in the known planitary world Via battles that are 1 life and tactics and skills are needed to complete the mission objectives for sector control.In other words you need a simple concept and a masterful concept to please all gameplayers.If this game does not evolve into a TT,CBT,PCgame that (NEW)fans will love and play then it will slip back into the shadows of battletch not to be seen again for many more years.

[Shuu Long]

I am expecting most matches will be TDM with respawns while the clans battle it out in no-respawn 4v4 or 8v8 rooms. It's just like the game I play where all the pubs are TDM respawn and all the clans fight in locked Bombing rooms.

I don't think they will reduce the options available to the players. We will see.

Edited by Shuu Long, 11 January 2012 - 08:57 AM.

[SquareSphere]

Just my two cents. For pub matches expect respawn, but they could be based on a timer or resources gained from completing objectives (ie reenforcment "carrot" for completing objectives instead of camping/jump sniping/staying in passive the whole game etc.)

Org matches make respawn an option but it affects win conditions, IE if you play no respawn you can gain more "stuff" (like exp, cbills etc) if you win/lose.

Ulitmately, the VAST majority of people do not want to majorly punished if they lose.

Just like the devs said, have to think about implementing these things from a carrot instead of a stick approach.