109 replies to this topic

[Dihm]

Hatchets/Axes in the Battlemech sense aren't quite the same as a real axe. While they do have a narrow "edge", this is done just to concentrate the mass into a smaller area to deal more damage, as opposed to actually cutting anything. They are just specialized clubs.

Edited by Dihm, 21 February 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[Adridos]

Wow, you know a lot about melee weapons.

But what was the point of it, if it could not make holes in the armor?

[Dr Duke]

A- wow, thats great! Did you draw the whole image or just color it?

B-With the stated emphasis on urban combat environments/using cover in combat and what we know about the pilot/mech skill trees it would be one of the worst mistakes they could make to not include this! Imagine having to turn every corner knowing there could be a hatchet blade the size of a smartcar waiting to crash through your canopy!

C- I never actually played TT, so what is that axe actually capable of? Can it smash in a cockpit potentially? Take limbs clean off? Is the arm capable of full articulation, like can it swing sideways and stuff? I normally really dislike more articulate/humanoid mech designs but i remember seeing the cartoon a few times when I was a kid and just being smitten by this guy.

[Dr Duke]

Dihm, on 21 February 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Hatchets/Axes in the Battlemech sense aren't quite the same as a real axe. While they do have a narrow "edge", this is done just to concentrate the mass into a smaller area to deal more damage, as opposed to actually cutting anything. They are just specialized clubs.

So how is this different from a regular scale axe?

[3Xtr3m3]

Dihm, on 21 February 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Hatchets/Axes in the Battlemech sense aren't quite the same as a real axe. While they do have a narrow "edge", this is done just to concentrate the mass into a smaller area to deal more damage, as opposed to actually cutting anything. They are just specialized clubs.

I agree with you that a mech axe is not like a real axe. I am not saying an edge sharp enough to cut paper, I would just ask that there be a little narrowing at the edge to concentrate the impact into a smaller area. And it was just a suggestion for improvement. The mech looks lethal as it is.

[Strum Wealh]

Dr Duke, on 21 February 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

C- I never actually played TT, so what is that axe actually capable of? Can it smash in a cockpit potentially? Take limbs clean off? Is the arm capable of full articulation, like can it swing sideways and stuff? I normally really dislike more articulate/humanoid mech designs but i remember seeing the cartoon a few times when I was a kid and just being smitten by this guy.

The hatchet inflicts one unit of damage for every five-ton increment of the 'Mech's weight.
For example, an Axman's hatchet would deal 13 (65/5 = 13) units of damage (enough to generally decapitate 'Mechs), while the lighter Hatchetman's hatchet would deal 9 (45/5 = 9) units of damage (just enough to get through a fully-armored head).
The damage dealt can be doubled (26 for Axman, 18 for Hatchetman) if the 'Mech in question is equipped with triple-strength myomers, and said TSM system is activated (which requires the 'Mech to be running-warm (overheating by 9 or more heat points)).

'Mechs may carry one (and only one) hatchet in the hand of each arm (each of which requires the full set of actuators - shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, and hand - to be equipped with a hatchet), with each hatchet having a weight (and critical space requirement) equal to the 'Mech's weight divided by 15 (and rounded up to the nearest whole number).
For example, an Axman-scale hatchet weighs five tons (65/15 = 4.33, rounded to 5) and takes up as many critical spaces, while a Hatchetman-scale hatchet weighs 3 tons (45/5 = 3) and takes up as many critical spaces.

Variants of each could dual-wield identical hatchets and attack with both simultaneously.
An Axman with active TSM and dual-wielded hatchets (52 units of damage per attack, in addition to whatever torso-mounted weapons it may be carrying ) or a similarly-built Hatchetman (36 units of damage per attack, in addition to whatever torso-mounted weapons it may be carrying) would be things to fear in close-quarters combat...

[Dihm]

Adridos, on 21 February 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Wow, you know a lot about melee weapons.

But what was the point of it, if it could not make holes in the armor?

Buckle the armor, damage internal structure, aim for the weak points to try to shear off limps at the more lightly defended joints. Crash it down onto the cockpit and smash the puny pilot cowering in fear. Fun stuff like that.

Dr Duke, on 21 February 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

A- wow, thats great! Did you draw the whole image or just color it?

B-With the stated emphasis on urban combat environments/using cover in combat and what we know about the pilot/mech skill trees it would be one of the worst mistakes they could make to not include this! Imagine having to turn every corner knowing there could be a hatchet blade the size of a smartcar waiting to crash through your canopy!

C- I never actually played TT, so what is that axe actually capable of? Can it smash in a cockpit potentially? Take limbs clean off? Is the arm capable of full articulation, like can it swing sideways and stuff? I normally really dislike more articulate/humanoid mech designs but i remember seeing the cartoon a few times when I was a kid and just being smitten by this guy.

A) Not sure if that's directed at me, but I just repainted what Karyudo-ds drew.
As far as we know now, one of the interviews from an external gaming site mentioned that there are plans for a "melee planet", which some of us suspect to be Solaris 7. The speculation is that this will be the point where they integrate punching/kicking/hatcheting into the game after launch.
C) From a damage standpoint, hatchets do the same amount of damage as a kick from a mech of equal tonnage, but uses the Punching table, so it will only hit the upper torso. This means there's a better chance to hit the cockpit, as well as all the fun vital areas filled with weapons, ammo, and engine. For a 100 ton mech, you're looking at an attack that causes zero heat, but does around the same damage as an AC20. As far as range of motion, that's sort of open to interpretation.

Dr Duke, on 21 February 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

So how is this different from a regular scale axe?

None really? The amount of effort to hone a 6 ton hatchet to a sharp edge is a touch higher than a 3 pound one. It's just not practical to try to get the same edge sharpness as you scale up. That's why it turns out to be more of a club than a cutting tool. Granted, there are human-sized axes and swords that essentially use this same principle, focusing more on the use of the weapon's weight moreso than any edge of the blade. This is sort of the classic East vs West, broadsword verses katana deal. We could go on about this forever, but I guess my basic point was that at this scale, the "hatchet" is more like a flanged mace than what one might think of as an axe. Wow that was rambling.

3Xtr3m3, on 21 February 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

I agree with you that a mech axe is not like a real axe. I am not saying an edge sharp enough to cut paper, I would just ask that there be a little narrowing at the edge to concentrate the impact into a smaller area. And it was just a suggestion for improvement. The mech looks lethal as it is.

True, it could have had a narrower edge put on it, but generally that's a pretty accurate portrayal from the TRO drawings of hatchets that I can recall.

Strum Wealh, on 21 February 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Variants of each could dual-wield identical hatchets and attack with both simultaneously.

I'm pretty sure that's a house rule. As far as I can remember (I'll check my books), you can only make one kick, one hatchet attack, or two punches in a physical turn. You can HAVE 2 hatchets, but only put one in play at a time.

Edited by Dihm, 21 February 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

I know that Megamek only allows 1 hatchet attack per turn (ask Dihm about the Grizzly match lol) so that's what I assume the tabletop rule would be.

[Strum Wealh]

Dihm, on 21 February 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that's a house rule. As far as I can remember (I'll check my books), you can only make one kick, one hatchet attack, or two punches in a physical turn. You can HAVE 2 hatchets, but only put one in play at a time.

Total Warfare, pg. 144:

Quote

Multiple Physical Attacks: A ‘Mech may only make a single type of physical attack in a single turn: charging, clubbing, death from above, kick, punch, push or phyiscal weapon attack. Even if a ’Mech mounts two physical weapons (identical or otherwise), it can only make a single physical weapon attack. When making a single punch attack, a player can punch with one or two arms (see Punch Attacks, p. 145).

Total Warfare, pg. 145:

Quote

In a single turn, a ’Mech may punch with one or both arms.

It can deliver a punch using its arm or fire the weapons on that arm, but it may not do both. Weapons mounted in the torso, legs or head may be fired in the same turn as a punch attack is made without affecting the punch.

All punch attacks must be made against targets in the attacking ’Mech’s forward or side firing arcs. If the target is in the right or left arc, only the right or left arm, respectively, may punch.

Total Warfare, pg. 146:

Quote

’Mechs can be equipped with a variety of external heavy equipment. Though some of this equipment is tailor-made to inflict damage—such as a hatchet or sword—most such equipment has other uses. However, the agility and strength of ’Mechs means that they can use any such equipment in a physical weapon attack against a potential target As with all physical attacks, the base to-hit number is equal to the MechWarrior’s Piloting Skill Level (see Base To-Hit Number, p. 146).

It does say that a 'Mech may only make a single type of physical attack per turn (that is, it cannot both punch and kick another 'Mech at the same time), but it does also say that a 'Mech mounting two physical weapons (identical or otherwise) can "make a single physical weapon attack" rather than "make a physical weapon attack with a single physical weapon".

The rule doesn't disallow the ability to use two weapons for "one attack" (lift both arms, then bring both hatchets down on a target (in the forward arc) simultaneously), and using both hands (for a two-handed-punch or a one-two punching of a target (in the forward arc)) is explicitly stated to constitute "one attack".

So, why not use dual axes for one attack?

[Dihm]

For punching there is a specific rule call-out that allows you to punch once or twice. There is no similar rule for hatchets, thus, you only get one. Hatchet attacks are physical weapon attacks, not punches. By your logic, should you be able to kick twice?

Edited by Dihm, 22 February 2012 - 06:09 AM.

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

By your logic, should you be able to kick twice?

You gotta admit a quadmech doing a two legged mule kick would be pretty hilarious

[Strum Wealh]

Dihm, on 22 February 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

For punching there is a specific rule call-out that allows you to punch once or twice. There is no similar rule for hatchets, thus, you only get one. Hatchet attacks are physical weapon attacks, not punches. By your logic, should you be able to kick twice?

Well, I don't see BattleMechs being able to execute any "butterfly kicks" or Liu Kang style "bicycle kicks" anytime soon (unless one knows of a canon-backed/justifiable instance of someone getting very, very fancy with DFA...).
(Though, the "mule kick" described by Longsword would be amusing to see... )

Moreover...

Total Warfare, pg. 147:

Quote

A ’Mech uses both arms to make a push attack against its target, which must be another standing ’Mech. The target ’Mech cannot execute a charge attack this turn.

TechManual, pg. 40:

Quote

When hand actuators are present on a ’Mech, most of their actions require little input from the MechWarrior. As I’ll describe later, ’Mechs generally have enough intelligence to recognize a simple “grab command” as aimed by a control stick and crosshairs, and can thus pick up improvised clubs or cargo without detailed input from the MechWarrior. Punching is trivial: click the punch mode switch, aim the crosshairs, and pull the punch trigger. Ditto for using clubs and hatchets. For fine hand manipulations, sensors built into the gloves of MechWarriors or separate waldo gloves can allow a ’Mech to mimic the gestures of its MechWarriors, at least when the glove sensors are activated.

Of course, BattleMechs can do more than just turn left or right, or move backwards and forwards. Talented MechWarriors have gotten assault ’Mechs to skip sideways to avoid missiles, executed handstands under carefully controlled conditions, and otherwise tapped some of the often-unused potential of a BattleMech’s limbs for complicated movements. For now, you’re just getting the two-kroner overview.

More complicated movements involve more complicated combinations of controls. The steering pedals don’t just push back and forth. They can also tilt and twist. Throttle control levers and fire control can also provide steering and movement input. And while neurohelmets primarily serve to correct balance, they can help clarify the MechWarrior’s intent to the BattleMech.

Also, from the last section of chapter 20 of Falcon Guard (pgs. 117-118):

Quote

Joanna came into Aidan's office one day. "Go to your window, Star Colonel," she said.

Looking out, he saw the entire Falcon Guards on the field, all the pilots in their 'Mechs, all the Elementals in their battle armor. MechWarrior Diana stood on a recently constructed platform. At a signal from Joanna, she gestured toward the assembled troops.

In almost a single precise movement, all the BattleMechs, all the Elementals, raised their left arms to a chest-high position. This was followed by the right arms, which went past the chest position and raised up, stopping at an oblique angle, all of them in approximately the same position. Then each arm was lowered separately.

At the next signal from Diana, each of the BattleMech torsos inclined first to the right, stopped simultaneously, then in synchronization, inclined to the left. After holding the pose for a moment, all the BattleMechs returned to the upright position.

These were just the beginning of nearly an hour of precise drills, sometimes just the BattleMechs, sometimes just the Elementals. At the end, they formed into marching units and left the field in a precision drill.

Aidan, who had been spellbound by the demonstration, finally turned to Joanna and said, "I am impressed. But just what in the name of Kerensky was happening there?"

"Well, in one sense, you have just witnessed the universe's first BattleMech calisthenic drill. In another, you have seen I have done my job. You can go into battle with some confidence in the Falcon Guards. They are still a bunch of aging or eccentric warriors, but they are now a unit. Sir."
"I have seen your work over the last two weeks, Star Commander. I have known for some time that your mission was a success. And in good time, it seems. Our orders are to proceed to Tukayyid in two days. I appreciate what you have done, Joanna."

Joanna did not acknowledge either the credit or the familiar use of her name. As usual, Aidan could not be sure what she was thinking. She probably hated him as much as ever.

"At the beginning of this," he said, "you did not think much of my plan. What do you say now?"
"The plan was chancy, but it worked."
"Thanks to you, Star Commander."
"That is also true."

As such:

• Punch attacks can use either or both arms in a single attack.
  
• Push attacks use both arms in one attack.
  
• The execution of physical attacks - punching, as well as the use of clubs and hatchets - is canonically stated to be as simple as "switch modes, aim the crosshairs, and pull the trigger".
  
• BattleMechs are canonically stated to be capable of (among other things) side-skipping (despite the fact that the movement rules allow only forward and backward motion relative to the facing of the legs of a bipedal 'Mech; Total Warfare, pg. 49) and handstands.
  
• BattleMechs are canonically demonstrated to be capable of calisthenics.

As such, I maintain that a single dual-hatchet attack is well within the realm of what a BattleMech should be capable of doing, given their other canonically-established abilities.


Your thoughts?

[Dihm]

Possible in "lore"? Eh, maybe. Possible in Battletech tabletop? I still say no. It's a balancing thing. As it stands now, it isn't allowed per the rules, as I read them.

[3Xtr3m3]

How about this?
Grab your mech with one hand, and activate a computer program that would use the other in a rapid fire targeted punching mode. Think Mech sized/fusion powered jackhammer.

[Thomas Covenant]

What do I think of your Axeman?...







Of course his name is Tony.

[Waylandx]

LOL

[Watchit]

3Xtr3m3, on 21 February 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

I agree with you that a mech axe is not like a real axe. I am not saying an edge sharp enough to cut paper, I would just ask that there be a little narrowing at the edge to concentrate the impact into a smaller area. And it was just a suggestion for improvement. The mech looks lethal as it is.

It wouldn't be to practical to sharpen the ax because the thinner edge would make the ax head weaker and more prone to break on your opponents armor

[BLaaR]

Indeed.

I wonder what a mace, even better yet, a spiked mace would do to a mech instead of the ax.

[Watchit]

it would be heavier than the ax, but you wouldn't be able to swing a mace as fast as it.

[BLaaR]

I really love the Axman, and this one looks even better.

Any chance a modeler wants to try and make a low poly model of this Axman ?

I want to try and make a paper model of this