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PPC style in MWO


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#21 Zaius Ex

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 06:15 AM

Indeed it is just a game as you say, but YOU are the one that brought up the question of realism by stating that you had never seen a group of particles form into a sphere before and that lightning bolts are coherent beams of energy. That said, don't pull out that old trick because I corrected you for basing your thoughts off incorrect science. Also, even though the Popular Mechanics particle gun was more than likely a particle beam gun and not a particle cannon, I will look into it. Sounds like an interesting read.

All in all, we can just agree to disagree. I will say that I think both just an orb and just a beam are a bad idea graphics-wise. If it's just an orb that goes flying away from you and impacts target, it would be a very lackluster graphic and probably be seen as lazy game design. Especially considering how much it would stand out against the other effects in the game. If it's just a beam, then why even have something called a particle projection cannon in the game at all. Just call it a particle beam gun and give it another boring laser effect. IMO, the only graphically pleasing effect would be a bolt(s) of lightning fired at the target or an orb trailing lightning.

Edited by Zaius Ex, 13 January 2012 - 09:21 AM.


#22 McScwizzy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 07:06 AM

I always like the stream lightning like ppc. I was never a fan of the ball in MW2. It just moved too slow lol.

#23 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 07:44 AM

I always liked the idea of a solid beam from point of origin to target. The 'damage' portion of the shot is in the tip but the visuals would be a continuous beam for say a few milliseconds. Best part is, I always imagined the sound and lights off; the shot would break the sound barrier so the sound should be offset from the shot, same goes with guass rifles.

#24 Battlefinger

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 08:04 AM

I was very satisfied with the PPC of MW:LL, especially the way it sounded like echoing thunder when you shot it. It made you feel even more powerful than you were :D
Although back in the day I liked the ball of MW2, I totally see how ridiculous that is now, and that it was only done that way because of tech restrictions at the time. So now I would definitely be pleased with a MW:LL-esque PPC.

#25 Phelan Kerensky

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 08:24 AM

View PostFyrwulf, on 12 January 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Posted Image


This^^

#26 ChapeL

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 08:53 AM

I loved the feel and looks of the PPC in MW4 Vengeance/Mercs. I could live with something similar to MW5's trailer if I had to but it looked rather "large".

#27 Volume

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:05 AM

I would love to see it as it is represented in MW3, MW:LL, and the trailer - A fairly quick moving ball+shaft+lightning combo thingy! I definitely want to need to lead my target, but not as much as in MW2. I wouldn't mind a primarily ball-shaped thing if they move quicker, which can be adjusted, but I think that it should leave a trail, even if just to "look cool" :D

Regardless of the physics involved, I just want it to stay true to what a player would expect to see, so I would think it would want to stay semi-consistent with MW3/MW4 or what something called a Particle Projection "Cannon" would do (big thundery boom and such). I think they almost nailed it in the trailer, but I think it should be lightning crackling around a trailing shaft that is created from a ball projectile (see MW:LL), but I want that ball to be more pronounced than it has been in previous games. Basically take a MW2 ball, make it roughly 1/2 the size, and attach a MW3 shaft to it.

I think that would look and feel awesome.

#28 Strum Wealh

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:53 AM

While I've stated a preference for a more beam/lightning-bolt like PPC firing, why not have variety?

Perhaps there might be different brands and makes/models might fire a bolt (the ball effect) while others fire a beam (the stream effect), as well as having other effects...

Example:
  • Manga Hellstar Mk.I PPC fires a bolt/ball of particles at slightly-shorter-than-average range while producing higher recoil on the firing 'Mech, more "knock" against the target, and more-intense-than-average HUD static.
  • Ceres Arms Smasher Mk.I PPC fires a "lightning bolt" at a slightly-longer-than-average range while producing lower recoil on the firing 'Mech, less "knock" against the target, and less-intense-than-average HUD static.
  • Kinslaughter Mk.I PPC fires a stream/beam at average range, produces average recoil, produces average knock and average HUD static, but the beam has an extended duration (1.0-1.5 sec) and continuous damage across the beam's duration (as opposed to the damage being "front-loaded") that can can be "walked" over a target (or across targets) like a MW3 pulse laser or MW4 LCBL.
And so on.

Mk. II and up would improve some aspect or aspects of the base model (but not all aspects).

Damage per salvo and ROF would be consistent across brands and makes/models.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 13 January 2012 - 05:32 PM.


#29 PewPew

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:20 PM

View PostZaius Ex, on 12 January 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If left to their own devices, groups of particles always form a sphere. That's why raindrops, hailstones, planets, stars, comets, old galaxies and many other naturally occuring phenomena are spherical. It's the most efficient shape in nature: maximimum volume for a given surface area. Also, the lighning bolts that we see aren't beams of energy so much as ionized gas turned into plasma by the intense heat and electrical charge passing through the air (which is why ppc's that are bolts of lightning wouldn't work in space, there are no particles to propogate the charge).

Taking all this into account a beam of energy just doens't make sense for a weapon that supposedly dumps a massive accumulated charge stored in capacitors in one go. That doesn't equal beam. The would have spherical head section fromed of the ionized particles excited during the initial capacitor dump and have a tail streaming from it opposite it's direction of travel due to energy being discharged into the atmosphere while in flight a.k.a. a sphere with a lightning tail behind like like they were in MW3 and the 2k9 trailer. You guys may want beam, but that's not what a PPC is based upon the physics behind how they would work.

Technically, a bullet is a chunk of particles. However, when using tracer rounds, you don't see a little nub of metal flying through the air with burning particles trailing. You see a streak because it's moving too fast for your eyes to see. So really, don't argue physics when you're not considering all things that affect our perception and reality. Also, there's no point in applying physics to this game unless you also want to explain where the 5 tons of auto cannon armor goes, or how, for some reason, the range changes even though they're firing the same round out of relatively similarly lengthed barrels. As people have said over and over again, this is a videogame.

I feel like the more recent MW games have done alright, except for the sound and perceived deadliness of the weapon. The PPC is supposed to have thermal AND kinetic energy. While the impact sound in MW4 was pretty good, the flight sound was too "pew pew" and less of a thunderous "bang". As for the appearance, I feel like all depictions have been too neat. I would personally like to see some random trails of lightning and static come out from the main path of the weapon, as well as some crackling to go with. Some crackling around the coils after firing would be pretty sexy as well.

Simply, less anime styled hadouken beams going pew pew, more loss-of-sphincter-control kablam.

#30 proktor

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:35 PM

in some of the novels a ppc blast is described like "connecting 2 mechs".
the bolt in mechassault is a very slowmoving object and homes in once targeted.
a beam goes faster and looks cooler

#31 Wraith 1

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:43 PM

I don't see why we can't have both...
Posted Image

#32 DEVASTATOR

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:58 PM

A la MW 3/4 would be fine with me. Its essentially a mass of particles that leaves a trail from super heating the air.

#33 Virgil Caine

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:33 PM

In gaming, the travel-time of the weapon is an important part of its balancing. The weapon must have respectable travel speed or it will not be useful, because it will be much harder to hit with. MechAssault had the weapon track, because had it not it would have been COMPLETELY useless. I can guarantee it won't track in MWOnline. So the big floaty wad... will probably not be used.

Best representation of the PPC so far has been Mechwarrior for the SNES :D

But the MW 3 version was really good. Long blue bolt with crackly lighnting trail... Fairly fast moving. Pretty good

Personally I'd make it look a lot more like the 3015 preview vid one, perhaps very slightly more lightning effects on impact...

#34 Liam

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:34 PM

View PostFyrwulf, on 12 January 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Posted Image

I like this one.
I hope PPC going to have high velocity in MWO. In MW4 it was a bit slow.

#35 Fyrwulf

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 04:13 PM

For a PPC to work, you have to have the particles traveling at a sizable fraction of C. The charged particles moving through the air at those speeds ionize the air into plasma and basically cause a very straight lightning bolt and the thunderclap is from the air being rapidly displaced.

#36 Man From AUNTIE

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 04:24 PM

I think it should be more like a sideways tear drop, the 'bottom' heading to the target and the pointed 'top' following. That is if you get a screenshot of it, in real time it would look more like a very wide beam.

#37 Zaius Ex

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 04:29 PM

View PostPewPew, on 13 January 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Technically, a bullet is a chunk of particles. However, when using tracer rounds, you don't see a little nub of metal flying through the air with burning particles trailing. You see a streak because it's moving too fast for your eyes to see. So really, don't argue physics when you're not considering all things that affect our perception and reality. Also, there's no point in applying physics to this game unless you also want to explain where the 5 tons of auto cannon armor goes, or how, for some reason, the range changes even though they're firing the same round out of relatively similarly lengthed barrels. As people have said over and over again, this is a videogame.

I feel like the more recent MW games have done alright, except for the sound and perceived deadliness of the weapon. The PPC is supposed to have thermal AND kinetic energy. While the impact sound in MW4 was pretty good, the flight sound was too "pew pew" and less of a thunderous "bang". As for the appearance, I feel like all depictions have been too neat. I would personally like to see some random trails of lightning and static come out from the main path of the weapon, as well as some crackling to go with. Some crackling around the coils after firing would be pretty sexy as well.

Simply, less anime styled hadouken beams going pew pew, more loss-of-sphincter-control kablam.


Yes a bullet is made of particles that have been machined and formed into a desired shape. That is not the same thing a cloud of ionized particles fired from cannon. The fact that PPCs don't have ammo supports that. Also, if you had read further in my post instead of picking out one thing that doesn't fit your example in an attempt to counter my point (One of my pet peeves btw. If you're going to go against me, at least pay me the courtesy of considering my entire point first.), you would realize i never said anything about leaving a trail of particles and attributed the lightning trail to the air being charged by the bolt passing through it. I will agree, however, that there would be a light trail also thanks to the failings of our vision. As for the autocannons, I'm not sure what you mean by armor (perhaps the armor on the gun's housing/mount point?) their ranges vary because they have different calibers. I do think they have been constantly misrepresented (the ranges are backwards for one) in the games, but they have to be for the sake of game balance. And as I said before, the just a game argument was no longer valid once people started basing their points off real world physics. If you're going to use real world physics to support your argument, and you're incorrect where I'm not, I'm going to cut you down. That's all there is to it.

#38 Rabbit Blacksun

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 06:14 PM

wait ... you mean to tell me you just tore into another person for reading part of yours yet you where unable to find argument based against what i stated for the weapon being impractical on any level for being a realistic weapon O.o ...

Course ... physics in a game ... thats where we all went wrong this whole time ... you cant really tell some one they are incorrect when you are using a theoretical weapon system and stating their personal oppinion...

So sir until you can show me the math required to state that your statement is indeed correct and the only correct answer ... then you dear sir have failed at your attempt.

oh yes ... i can poke a hole into your real world physics deal ...

Its called a super colider (sp?) which does emit particles in a stream rather then a ball or sphere (Which would be the correct term for it since mathmatically they tend to form perfect spheres)

how ever one can freely bring in real world physics to a game design, especially when its just talking shop ... so in closing ...

Why you so mad brah ?

#39 Liam

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 06:39 PM

View PostFyrwulf, on 13 January 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

For a PPC to work, you have to have the particles traveling at a sizable fraction of C. The charged particles moving through the air at those speeds ionize the air into plasma and basically cause a very straight lightning bolt and the thunderclap is from the air being rapidly displaced.

I think not in case of LIPC (Laser induced plasma channel).
Its about conductivity.
The Laser Ionize the air producing so a conductive lane, aisle
Discharge follows then this line. (better conductivity, less resistance)


http://en.wikipedia..../Plasma_channel
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Electrolaser

LIPC is the easiest way to realize PPC like weapon.

By using of charged ions would require some propellant (better gas > less losses by ionization process)
The function principle could be similar to Ion propulsion. Electrostatic. Plasma channel will be still needed.

Space PPC: would require self focusing effect (by inducing magnetic field) otherwise it will expand and diverge. And very important in space is the charge compensation.

Edited by Liam, 13 January 2012 - 06:45 PM.


#40 Fyrwulf

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 07:10 PM

I don't think BT uses LIPC, though.





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