90 replies to this topic

[Jacough]

Lightdragon, on 12 August 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

what it means is if i dont like the game i delete the torrent no money paid to the company that produced said game if i liked the game... i throw the company a bone and pay them for a retail copy whats so hard to understand about that?

Test driving a car = legal
premarital sex = legal

piracy = illegal

What's so hard to get about that?

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Viper69, on 12 August 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Those are horrible examples. Both the acts you described are legal. Test driving software unless specified by the authors is illegal. Stop trying to rationalize some of you peoples desire to get something free that you have to right to. If you research a game or anything online before you buy it you can read reviews.

for the record, they are not "my people". why you assumed i participate in illegal acts when I claimed no such thing is mildly offensive to me, but that's besides the point.

I admit, those were some fallacy riddled examples, you have every right to call me out on them, but while your left hemisphere is busy strengthening your beliefs and encouraging closed mindedness with that glorious dopamine release from "feeling right", answer me this

what would a company have to gain by not allowing you to try their products before buying them?

or more importantly, what are they hiding? and what would they have to lose from you trying their products?

Edited by Battlecruiser, 12 August 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[DontGetCrabs]

Mr T, on 12 August 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

1. Then why do the people who push these laws, never share the winnings with the artists?
2. Copying a digital item /= Stealing a physical item. If you could copy and paste a chair, it wouldn't be stealing either.
3. As mentioned, the idea is not to "get free ****" its to stop companies selling us bogus goods. File sharing has broken the imbalance that large companies with millions to pour into marketing have over indie developers or smaller companies that actually produce a quality product. Not to mention, where is the legal recourse for them when they sell you what is essentially counterfeit goods, promising one thing and giving them another? If you or I tried to purchase their goods with counterfeit money, you go straight to jail, no questions asked. Not to mention, the people who make these laws have routinely been found to be guilty of their own crimes, yet nothing happens to them of course.
4. You're not fighting the power by riding the coat tails of battles won in the past and saying "Yeah! I agree to that!" It only counts when actively struggling against a power structure that still exists in present time... right now, you're buying the hype.
5. The same companies that try to make you feel so bad about "stealing from the artists" have polices that **** over those same people way harder than you ever could in your dreams.

Answers in order of questions or points
1. *** are you talking about winnings? this isnt the lottery its real world business. If they don't know how to write a contract its their fault.
2. Umm okay I still dont follow you, but if your talking about copy and pasting documents thats call plagiarism which is illegal and should be.
3. Ever heard of magazines such as Rolling Stone, PC gamer, Empire, Popular Mechanics, or Wired? There are things called reviews try reading one and base your purchases off of them.
4. Dont even know how to respond.
5. Then I guess they need to look for a new line of work.

Okay went through and read your links, on answer/question 1. The record companys paid for the lawyers thats why they get the settlement money or in your words the prize money. On # 5 go see the original answer #1.

Edited by DontGetCrabs, 12 August 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[LogicalTightRope]

Mr T, on 12 August 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

1. Then why do the people who push these laws, never share the winnings with the artists?
2. Copying a digital item /= Stealing a physical item. If you could copy and paste a chair, it wouldn't be stealing either.
3. As mentioned, the idea is not to "get free ****" its to stop companies selling us bogus goods. File sharing has broken the imbalance that large companies with millions to pour into marketing have over indie developers or smaller companies that actually produce a quality product. Not to mention, where is the legal recourse for them when they sell you what is essentially counterfeit goods, promising one thing and giving them another? If you or I tried to purchase their goods with counterfeit money, you go straight to jail, no questions asked. Not to mention, the people who make these laws have routinely been found to be guilty of their own crimes, yet nothing happens to them of course.
4. You're not fighting the power by riding the coat tails of battles won in the past and saying "Yeah! I agree to that!" It only counts when actively struggling against a power structure that still exists in present time... right now, you're buying the hype.
5. The same companies that try to make you feel so bad about "stealing from the artists" have polices that **** over those same people way harder than you ever could in your dreams.

1. Those people are corrupt. That doesn't mean pirating is not wrong, it means the record labels are wrong in a different way.
2. It's denying the right of payment for something that the company produced. It's not as bad as stealing, but it's still a crime and morally wrong.
3. Why don't you watch some YouTube videos about the game if you're not sure you want it and there's no demo? Also, yes, it's ridiculous that those people don't get punished when they should, but that's a different issue. That's the legal system.
4. That doesn't matter, I'm making this decision on my own, I don't care what you or anyone says, I think it's wrong in my own thoughts.
5. Yeah, the record labels are corrupt, but pirating from them doesn't help the musicians they cheat.

[DarkBazerker]

Lightdragon, on 12 August 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

spoken like a true ignorant jackass what torrent sites did was allowed you to download the stuff for free yes... but for many of the responsible users it was a try before you buy, nobody wants to pay for an entire cd album full of music they dont like if most of it sucks or how about this... you pay 60 bucks for a game thats incomplete (im looking at you blizzard) and find out that the game is absolutely terrible.. guess what you cant return games and ask for your money back. sites liek these prevent you from making that mistake if the game or music sucks guess what, those companies dont deserve your money, stick that in your pipe and smoke it

Buying a lemon, well thats part of life. There are alot of sites that sell albums as a whole or by songs, heck we also have a thing called a radio. I'm glade demoniod is gone and I hope more like it fallow suite.

[Viper69]

Battlecruiser, on 12 August 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

okay, so you've got me there, but while you're left hemisphere is busy strengthening your beliefs with that glorious dopamine release, answer me this

what would a company have to gain by not allowing you to try their products before buying them?

or more importantly, what would they have to lose?

The back handed insults arent neccesary my friend.

As for your question: it is their right if they the creators want to let people try it out. They bear the loss in sales if people cant try it, that is their decision to make, not yours. Some game companies like Blizzard has trial versions of its games, others dont. Those are legal trials given out by the company, not taken by entitled people who think they have the right to take the property of others, weather it be for testing or not. It is still theft.

Battlecruiser, on 12 August 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

for the record, they are not "my people". why you assumed i participate in illegal acts when I claimed no such thing is mildly offensive to me, but that's besides the point.

I admit, those were some fallacy riddled examples, you have every right to call me out on them, but while your left hemisphere is busy strengthening your beliefs and encouraging closed mindedness with that glorious dopamine release from "feeling right", answer me this

what would a company have to gain by not allowing you to try their products before buying them?

or more importantly, what are they hiding? and what would they have to lose from you trying their products?

Responded before your edit. I said "you peoples" not "your peoples" maybe should have said they. Sorry if I "offended" you.

Edited by Viper69, 12 August 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[DontGetCrabs]

Battlecruiser, on 12 August 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

for the record, they are not "my people". why you assumed i participate in illegal acts when I claimed no such thing is mildly offensive to me, but that's besides the point.

I admit, those were some fallacy riddled examples, you have every right to call me out on them, but while your left hemisphere is busy strengthening your beliefs and encouraging closed mindedness with that glorious dopamine release from "feeling right", answer me this

what would a company have to gain by not allowing you to try their products before buying them?

or more importantly, what are they hiding? and what would they have to lose from you trying their products?

Sales stupid. If you put out a crappy product and you know its crappy are you going to let everyone try it out? No. As I said their are things called reviews and critics. Try them out.

[Lightdragon]

Viper69, on 12 August 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Those are horrible examples. Both the acts you described are legal. Test driving software unless specified by the authors is illegal. Stop trying to rationalize some of you peoples desire to get something free that you have to right to. If you research a game or anything online before you buy it you can read reviews.

reviews can be heavily biased... and those writing them can be paid off that is a stupid point to make... example.. most of the crap ea comes out with these days

[LogicalTightRope]

Battlecruiser, on 12 August 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

for the record, they are not "my people". why you assumed i participate in illegal acts when I claimed no such thing is mildly offensive to me, but that's besides the point.

I admit, those were some fallacy riddled examples, you have every right to call me out on them, but while your left hemisphere is busy strengthening your beliefs with that glorious dopamine release from "feeling right", answer me this

what would a company have to gain by not allowing you to try their products before buying them?

or more importantly, what are they hiding? and what would they have to lose?

I hate your statement that assumes we say the 'right' thing for no reason other than it feels 'right'. Why do you do what you feel is right? How do you make those decisions? If you are sentient, some sort of logic is behind that, as with the rest of us. Get off your high horse and stop pretending you're above all of us sheeple.

They're making an attempt to have you buy the product without testing it. They aren't necessarily hiding something (although some do), they're just trying to get a bit more cash. Yeah, that's a little underhanded, but it's not a holocaust. Besides, they wouldn't be able to hide it even if torrents were gone, because people would actually read/watch reviews of the items.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Viper69, on 12 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

The back handed insults arent neccesary my friend.

As for your question: it is their right if they the creators want to let people try it out. They bear the loss in sales if people cant try it, that is their decision to make, not yours. Some game companies like Blizzard has trial versions of its games, others dont. Those are legal trials given out by the company, not taken by entitled people who think they have the right to take the property of others, weather it be for testing or not. It is still theft.

factual occurances inside the brain are not back handed insults


you still haven't answered my philiosophical questions. what you have done however is once again parroted your beliefs about how piracy is against the law and immoral, which has absolutely nothing to do with the questions I have asked. Quit being so narrow minded and THINK. not understanding or demonstrating unwillingness to think openly denotes poor self awareness and an overall dominance of mirror neurons in the outward sense to say the least.

unless you are inhibited by a nerological disorder that makes correlation between the two halves of your brain impossible, you need to use your critical thinking skills to figure out what and why.

DontGetCrabs, on 12 August 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Sales stupid. If you put out a crappy product and you know its crappy are you going to let everyone try it out? No. As I said their are things called reviews and critics. Try them out.

ah yes, critics and reviews, who are often influenced with subordination of perjury.


but waiting for a leigitimate review (see, experiences from your peers) often means money had to have been spent on the game for word to get around, this hurts long term sales in a big way, which is why most companies like EA and activision are constantly pumping out sequels. their sales model does not include long term profit, and this in itself is enough of a warning to avoid anything with the labels of those comapnies. furthermore, if you make enough bad games, word of mouth will destroy your reputation regardless of how well you control media, unless you can also control communications.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 12 August 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Gingo]

BentLent98, on 12 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Ever heard of demos?

Demos are skewed. Every developer can make 30 minutes of well polished fun.

Viper69, on 12 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Im an ignorant jackass? Try before you buy my ***, dont even lie to me and tell me folks downloaded pirated software to test, once they liked it they then went and bought it? Yeah right, go sell your load of BS to someone else.

Not to say I ever downloaded anything to test it before I bought it, because that would be a terribad illegal act, but...

LogicalTightRope, on 12 August 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Unless you try your friend's copy or something, that's fine; but using it as a demo is no excuse for illegal downloads.

Using a friends copy is illegal. Do you never read EULAs or anything of the sort? You arent allowed to borrow it to somebody and you arent allowed to show it to an audience.


The people saying trying before buying is wrong have a simple problem:

They believe whats illegal must be bad.

That logic doesnt work. It never did. Whats illegal is whats inconvenient to the powers that be, mostly, and only the little rest is actually something that is morally wrong.


And for the people saying its stealing:

Stealing is wrong because the other person loses something.
With copying, the other party doesnt lose anything, therefore its not wrong, as long as you buy it if you like it. Its that easy.

[LogicalTightRope]

Lightdragon, on 12 August 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

reviews can be heavily biased... and those writing them can be paid off that is a stupid point to make... example.. most of the crap ea comes out with these days

Gameplay videos can't be biased, because you see what you get. Plus, it's usually relatively easy to tell which reviews are biased. And if you don't like EA, just don't buy from them. Problem solved.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Demonoid was one of the largest illegal file sharing websites that existed, if not "the". Almost everything on it was pirated movies, games, programs, animes, shows, the list goes on and on. It was the ultimate pirate "store". The only reason it's stayed alive this long is because it's hosted in a country that can safely say "FU" to anyone complaining about it. The American government also can't yet legally censor our internet access; thus we can go there if we so please. It's pure foolishness to try to state it was a site used for legal trading when 99% of the stuff on there was illegally shared material, bundled with cracks, serials, or keygens to skip over every means of anti-piracy protection. There were even work-arounds for games that required 24 7 internet access for online DRM. That was the "solution" for piracy and yet very quickly after games with it get released with it cracks entirely ignoring it are released.

It looks like the government finally decided to stop using ineffective legal means to fight it though and to just crash it hacker style. You see it's very hard for the government to fight foreign websites that can typically just say "FU" to copyright complaints. For years they've targeted the users themselves, going after file sharers or even downloaders but this is also ineffective because for every 1 guy's ISP you send a copyright infringement letter to or sue; 1,000+ happily take their place. A lot of the file sharers are also outside our country and, again, can't be targeted for any kind of legal action. They then tried to pass bills to better fight the problem which would given them the ability to block our access to the websites, effectively cutting off the U.S. from piracy. The bills they tried to pass to improve anti-piracy all got rejected.(Which to be honest, was good because they had very poor wording and would have been freely abused by the entertainment industry to censor critics or any kind of negative feedback, including any/all video reviewing critics and/or "Let's Play" makers. Until they get better wording and power limitations even anti-piracy supporters are rejecting them.) They've now apparently finally decided to just gorilla warfare it. I doubt Demonoid will be the "only" website that suffers this fate. Piratebay will surely be next. Before this Megaupload was taken down, but they managed to do that one legally. To this day there is still the U.S. court stamp on the front page of that domain. I wouldn't expect to see either of these sites revived anytime soon.

[Viper69]

Battlecruiser, on 12 August 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

factual occurances inside the brain are not back handed insults


you still haven't answered my philiosophical questions. what you have done however is once again parroted your beliefs about how piracy is against the law and immoral, which has absolutely nothing to do with the questions I have asked. Quit being so narrow minded and THINK. not understanding or demonstrating unwillingness to think openly denotes poor self awareness and an overall dominance of mirror neurons to say the least.

unless you are inhibited by a nerological disorder that makes correlation between the two halves of your brain impossible, you need to use your critical thinking skills.

Yes, because I responded before your ninja edit. You use a lot of big words I cant understand you through all the mumbling.

[DontGetCrabs]

Lightdragon, on 12 August 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

reviews can be heavily biased... and those writing them can be paid off that is a stupid point to make... example.. most of the crap ea comes out with these days

If you are not able to figure out that 5 reviews of the same product are the virtually the same as one another and is shady then shame on you. There is another little jewel of information you can tap into. It's called friends, see what your friends are doing and trying out. It's kind of hard to pay off everyone in the world. Life lessons are learned through out trial and error. This generation wants to skip this part in life. Once you get ripped off a time or two you wise up to marketing strategies and such. Stop expecting to get everything for nothing. Everything in life has a price, that price is not always money, sometimes its time, pain, humiliation, and other learning tools.

[Mr T]

Gingo, on 12 August 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Demos are skewed. Every developer can make 30 minutes of well polished fun.




Not to say I ever downloaded anything to test it before I bought it, because that would be a terribad illegal act, but...



Using a friends copy is illegal. Do you never read EULAs or anything of the sort? You arent allowed to borrow it to somebody and you arent allowed to show it to an audience.


The people saying trying before buying is wrong have a simple problem:

They believe whats illegal must be bad.

That logic doesnt work. It never did. Whats illegal is whats inconvenient to the powers that be, mostly, and only the little rest is actually something that is morally wrong.


And for the people saying its stealing:

Stealing is wrong because the other person loses something.
With copying, the other party doesnt lose anything, therefore its not wrong, as long as you buy it if you like it. Its that easy.

<3

[LogicalTightRope]

Battlecruiser, on 12 August 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

factual occurances inside the brain are not back handed insults


you still haven't answered my philiosophical questions. what you have done however is once again parroted your beliefs about how piracy is against the law and immoral, which has absolutely nothing to do with the questions I have asked. Quit being so narrow minded and THINK. not understanding or demonstrating unwillingness to think openly denotes poor self awareness and an overall dominance of mirror neurons to say the least.

unless you are inhibited by a nerological disorder that makes correlation between the two halves of your brain impossible, you need to use your critical thinking skills.

You must have some problem that prevents you from understanding that people are capable of forming their own opinions, and that sometimes they're different from yours.

I want the developer to get payed for what they produce by those that use it. Pirating isn't stealing, but it's prevention of payment, which is also wrong. I'm not blindly following the law, I thought this through and decided it myself.

"Quit being so narrowminded and THINK." Same to you.

Also, saying big words doesn't help your case. I suggest you stop using unnecessary and underhanded insults and disguising them as smart talk, it's not gonna get you far.

[Sparks Murphey]

I'm sad to see Demonoid go, because I seem to be one of the few who don't see "torrent" and immediately think "piracy".

OpenOffice, a free word processing/spreadsheet/etc suite, is distributed legally by torrent.

World of Warcraft is distributed legally by torrent, though admittedly you won't find a tracker for it on Demonoid.

You can get Jonathon Coulton's songs legally by torrent.

You can get the pen-and-paper RPG Eclipse Phase legally by torrent.

Torrenting =/= Piracy, and Demonoid =/= piracy either. Demonoid were a site to find content that third parties were sharing via torrent, and yes, this was frequently used for piracy. But it wasn't exclusively, and to take them down because of it is wrong.

Picture it this way: if someone comes onto the MWO forums and starts mass-spamming links to child or snuff ***********, should mwomercs.com be taken down? Should Piranha Games be taken to court for distributing illegal ****?

In fact, what if someone spray-painted your house with illegally copied images of modern art? That violates copyright more directly than distributing a torrent link, since anyone passing by your house can instantly see the violating image, rather than just being told where to find it. You didn't spray paint the house, someone else did, yet the government just bulldozed your house because of something someone else did wrong, despite the fact that the person who committed the crime goes free.

I agree that in this case, Demonoid probably didn't do enough to keep illegal content off their site, probably to the point of complicity. But it still ignores the fact that they aren't the criminals, the people ripping the games/movies/music and uploading them are, and are getting away scott free.

Le Edit: It looks like Piranha have, quite neatly, blocked at least some instances of p o r n.

Edited by Sparks Murphey, 12 August 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Viper69]

Can we all agree to disagree and get back to killing big robits?

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Gingo, on 12 August 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Using a friends copy is illegal. Do you never read EULAs or anything of the sort? You arent allowed to borrow it to somebody and you arent allowed to show it to an audience.
With copying, the other party doesnt lose anything, therefore its not wrong, as long as you buy it if you like it. Its that easy.

Lol, it is not illegal to go over to your friend's house and play a game on his console or PC. It also isn't illegal at all to show a video of a game. Have you never seen a video review or Let's Play of ANYTHING? Go over to thatguywiththeglasses.com. You telling me Angry Joe's review videos is criminal? That's a laugh. He would have been sued into the ground years ago.(Especially by Capcom, you have no idea)

Also, with copying, the owner is losing potential income if you never buy a product. If you pirate it first then later buy it, then it is true, he's still getting his due; but if you pirate it and never buy it, then you basically stole it. It isn't stealing in the physical definition of "I took something from you" but it is stealing in the economic sense. Aka if a game is 60$ and you pirated it; then you basically denied that developer 60$, which is more or less stealing because they now have 60$ less than what they "would have had" if you paid for it.