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Mechlab


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Poll: Mechlab? (569 member(s) have cast votes)

Where do you stand on Mechlab?

  1. Voted Yes. Its in the books, it needs to be in. (230 votes [40.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.42%

  2. Voted Yes, but limited refit ala MW4. (183 votes [32.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.16%

  3. Maybe. I like choice, but I am concerned about min/max mechs. (115 votes [20.21%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.21%

  4. No. Mechlab made multiplayer worse on previous editions. (41 votes [7.21%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.21%

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#101 Gaius Cavadus

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:42 PM

The PGI devs would have to be beyond inept and incompetent to use the horrible TT crit slot system.

Hardpoints are the way to go but probably more restricted than even Mw4 allowed or just roll with variants like MPBT: 3025 did and allow very small adjustments (remove a heat sink for an extra ton of ammo for something, for instance).

The TT customization was simply awful and so poorly constructed. The entire "gun bag" concept was a complete joke and needs to be trashed with about 95% of the other horrible and boring TT rules.

Edited by cavadus, 02 November 2011 - 04:42 PM.


#102 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:59 PM

So anyway, I'm just going to jump in and basically give the consensus of this similar thread that was beaten to death a hundred times over at MekTek.net

There Must be a MechLab in the game for it to truly be a MechWarrior game (which is confirmed to be, Q&A)
However, there are very glaring flaws in both the MW2/3 and MW4 Mechlab layouts. The prior being "too much freedom" where for instance you can take a catapult, and load its arm missile racks to the brink with lasers. Also, allows MANY 'mechs which are clearly meant to not mount some equipment and JJ's the ability to with ZERO consequence. For instance, the 'mech Wolverine originally came with JJ's, but due to faulty design they were VERY inconsistent and unreliable, resulting in many to simply remove them altogether in later productions. But say in the "open criticals" style Mechlab, there is no repercussions to any clearly "stupid" setups.

Now looking at the glaring flaws of the MW4 "hardpoint" style of the Mechlab, it took MANY variables out the equation entirely and made the Mechlab too simple. Weapons no longer take up "real" space in the 'mech, ammo takes up no space, there is no such thing as a CASE for ammo explosions (although that's really just a problem with MW4 in general) JJ's and equipment take up no "real" space, bigger engines, heat sinks, endo steel, ferro fiberous armor..... yeah the list is nearly endless. All that **** on your 'mech TAKES UP SPACE!!!! (if anyone is familiar with MP3 for MW4:Mercs, the Wildcat case and point. There is NO WAY in hell that you can fit TWO Gauss rifles in the CT) Also, another problem less noted in the MW4 "Hardpoint" system is ammo is allocated to indivdual weapons only. For instance, say you put two AC/5's on your mech. Besides getting a free ton of ammo, you now need to make a choice. Spend TWO extra tons, so each gun has an additional ton spend a single ton so one of the two guns inevitably run out of ammo while the other has plenty.

But anyway, while both have their flaws, the best solution was a "Hybrid" system where all criticals on your 'mech must be accounted for, yet only specific weapon types can be allocated in specific areas. Battlemechs are not as customizable as Omnimechs, despite how convient it appears in the past games. While Omnimechs may be able to mount a plethora of different weapon types in its arms, a battlemech is specially made to fit only one specific type of gun or two in its arms/torsos.
-- For instance, lets bring back the Catapult. In MW4, it had 4 "hardpoint" slots in its arms for weapons, specific types of missiles taking up one or more hardpoints. On top of that, each 'mechs arms come with 12-16 available critical slots in which to fill with equipment, guns or ammo. Say I wish to put a LRM 20 in each arm. That LRM would require 2 Hardpoints (MW4) and 4 criticals (Mw2). Great! I can fit that, and still have room around to play with. But I now must fill in the rest of my ciritcals with a CASE, Ammo, heatsinks, and any other equipment now, since potentially I'll need all my criticals in my torsos for JJ's more Heatsinks, endo-steel and whatever else I may need.

--I can't, however, take a Gladiator, fill it with 3 CERPPCs and 2 CGauss Rifles, JJ's and heatsinks/ammo and just go. (MW4 Poptart classic). There is simply NO WAY there is enough room in that 'mech to fit all of that! Even with double heat sinks, that Gladiator would be cooking itself trying to fire those jump jets, and cool itself down. Those CGauss are MASSIVE and take up I believe 12 criticals (I might be off on that number), which would take up the entirety of boths its torsos. Well that still leaves its arms open right? Well ok, but now where the hell do you plan on putting the 3 CERPPS (a ppc took 3 crits a pop) the ammo for the CGauss, at least 10 double heatsinks (2 crits a pop on those suckers) to keep it them moderately cool. Thats another 26 criticals right there! Keep in mind I haven't even included the JJ's which are huge for an assault, and Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fiberous armor to give it enough weight to allow it to carry that loadout tonnage. But oh wait, those ALSO take up a bit of criticals, too!!

Either way, that setup would NEVER work. There is a reason 'mechs like the Stone Rhino are massive and VERY deadly with two CGauss.

#103 CaveMan

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:09 PM

How about MW4 style "restricted" hardpoints for BattleMechs, and OmniMechs just have open tonnage and critical slots that weapons can be poured into? Modifying engines, structure types, etc. should be outside the limits of what customizing can do. If you want a faster 'Mech, buy a different chassis and start from there.

#104 MaddMaxx

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:11 PM

Without a MechLab the Dev have to supply ALL the Mech's and variants. This could be possible but would require many updates filled with content for those always hungry Mechwarriors looking/waiting for THEIR special variant to arrive. That creates hard feelings and unrelenting headaches for the Team.

A hard point system that links weight/heat and space requirements to all additional modifications would be ideal. All weapon systems come in a Pod (for lack of a better word) type form. These Pods contain all the required equipment to make the addition functional. So they would includes the required Heat sinks, electronics etc etc. to assure no stripped down "Franky" versions.

The Dev have stated they will mod the "rules" to suit their needs and I can see the MechLab area of the design to be a perfect place to take some creative license in that regard.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 02 November 2011 - 05:13 PM.


#105 SilentWolff

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:15 PM

View Postmwhighlander, on 02 November 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

So anyway, I'm just going to jump in and basically give the consensus of this similar thread that was beaten to death a hundred times over at MekTek.net

There Must be a MechLab in the game for it to truly be a MechWarrior game (which is confirmed to be, Q&A)
However, there are very glaring flaws in both the MW2/3 and MW4 Mechlab layouts. The prior being "too much freedom" where for instance you can take a catapult, and load its arm missile racks to the brink with lasers. Also, allows MANY 'mechs which are clearly meant to not mount some equipment and JJ's the ability to with ZERO consequence. For instance, the 'mech Wolverine originally came with JJ's, but due to faulty design they were VERY inconsistent and unreliable, resulting in many to simply remove them altogether in later productions. But say in the "open criticals" style Mechlab, there is no repercussions to any clearly "stupid" setups.

Now looking at the glaring flaws of the MW4 "hardpoint" style of the Mechlab, it took MANY variables out the equation entirely and made the Mechlab too simple. Weapons no longer take up "real" space in the 'mech, ammo takes up no space, there is no such thing as a CASE for ammo explosions (although that's really just a problem with MW4 in general) JJ's and equipment take up no "real" space, bigger engines, heat sinks, endo steel, ferro fiberous armor..... yeah the list is nearly endless. All that **** on your 'mech TAKES UP SPACE!!!! (if anyone is familiar with MP3 for MW4:Mercs, the Wildcat case and point. There is NO WAY in hell that you can fit TWO Gauss rifles in the CT) Also, another problem less noted in the MW4 "Hardpoint" system is ammo is allocated to indivdual weapons only. For instance, say you put two AC/5's on your mech. Besides getting a free ton of ammo, you now need to make a choice. Spend TWO extra tons, so each gun has an additional ton spend a single ton so one of the two guns inevitably run out of ammo while the other has plenty.

But anyway, while both have their flaws, the best solution was a "Hybrid" system where all criticals on your 'mech must be accounted for, yet only specific weapon types can be allocated in specific areas. Battlemechs are not as customizable as Omnimechs, despite how convient it appears in the past games. While Omnimechs may be able to mount a plethora of different weapon types in its arms, a battlemech is specially made to fit only one specific type of gun or two in its arms/torsos.
-- For instance, lets bring back the Catapult. In MW4, it had 4 "hardpoint" slots in its arms for weapons, specific types of missiles taking up one or more hardpoints. On top of that, each 'mechs arms come with 12-16 available critical slots in which to fill with equipment, guns or ammo. Say I wish to put a LRM 20 in each arm. That LRM would require 2 Hardpoints (MW4) and 4 criticals (Mw2). Great! I can fit that, and still have room around to play with. But I now must fill in the rest of my ciritcals with a CASE, Ammo, heatsinks, and any other equipment now, since potentially I'll need all my criticals in my torsos for JJ's more Heatsinks, endo-steel and whatever else I may need.

--I can't, however, take a Gladiator, fill it with 3 CERPPCs and 2 CGauss Rifles, JJ's and heatsinks/ammo and just go. (MW4 Poptart classic). There is simply NO WAY there is enough room in that 'mech to fit all of that! Even with double heat sinks, that Gladiator would be cooking itself trying to fire those jump jets, and cool itself down. Those CGauss are MASSIVE and take up I believe 12 criticals (I might be off on that number), which would take up the entirety of boths its torsos. Well that still leaves its arms open right? Well ok, but now where the hell do you plan on putting the 3 CERPPS (a ppc took 3 crits a pop) the ammo for the CGauss, at least 10 double heatsinks (2 crits a pop on those suckers) to keep it them moderately cool. Thats another 26 criticals right there! Keep in mind I haven't even included the JJ's which are huge for an assault, and Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fiberous armor to give it enough weight to allow it to carry that loadout tonnage. But oh wait, those ALSO take up a bit of criticals, too!!

Either way, that setup would NEVER work. There is a reason 'mechs like the Stone Rhino are massive and VERY deadly with two CGauss.



This. (well done mwh :) )

#106 Scott Wolfpack Rider

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:26 PM

I voted yes, but I'd actually prefer a system that was a hybrid of the mechlab and the ol Mechit-lube from crescent hawks. Make Mech customization possible but make players have to travel to specific locations for those customizations (and not all shops are as skilled as each other in upgrading tech) and the more customizations.... the more cost and more downtime. Stripping a mech to the endo and reworking it from the ground up should cost at leat 10x what a stock chassis off the merc net runs you not to mention months of "downtime" meaning people will self regulate on what they modify from a practacality standpoint till they are sitting on extra chassis and a small moons worth of isk.

#107 IS Wolf

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:52 PM

View Postmwhighlander, on 02 November 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

--I can't, however, take a Gladiator, fill it with 3 CERPPCs and 2 CGauss Rifles, JJ's and heatsinks/ammo and just go. (MW4 Poptart classic). There is simply NO WAY there is enough room in that 'mech to fit all of that! Even with double heat sinks, that Gladiator would be cooking itself trying to fire those jump jets, and cool itself down. Those CGauss are MASSIVE and take up I believe 12 criticals (I might be off on that number), which would take up the entirety of boths its torsos. Well that still leaves its arms open right? Well ok, but now where the hell do you plan on putting the 3 CERPPS (a ppc took 3 crits a pop) the ammo for the CGauss, at least 10 double heatsinks (2 crits a pop on those suckers) to keep it them moderately cool. Thats another 26 criticals right there! Keep in mind I haven't even included the JJ's which are huge for an assault, and Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fiberous armor to give it enough weight to allow it to carry that loadout tonnage. But oh wait, those ALSO take up a bit of criticals, too!!


Spheroid PPCs are three slots, Clan PPCs are two slots.
Clan Gaus rifle takes up 6 slots, but weighs 12T.
Spheroid Gaus Rifle takes up 7 slots, but weighs 15T
Clan LB-X-20 is 9 slots and 12T, Ultra 20 is 8 slots, 12T
Spheroid versions are: 11 slots, 14T for the LB-X-20 and 10 slots and 15T for the Ultra 20

#108 Phades

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:57 PM

If you guys design it right, the mechlab shouldn't be considered an overpowering aspect at all. You also have to be honest with the canon, the IS stock mechs stank and in many instances did not use up all the space or tonnage available. Also with the mechwarrior games, opposed to simply battletech, much of it involves customization and tweaks as is common with a role playing based strategy game.

View PostCaveMan, on 01 November 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

Min-maxed 'Mechs aren't an issue if the game properly balances heat (which means overheating needs to have dire consequences as in the board game), range, weapon reload times, and ammunition concerns. If you pack 30 small lasers into a 'Mech, there should be serious consequences. By the same token, the single big gun approach should be viable, and everything inbetween.


Considering they are talking about also employing electronic warfare, that could be a very easy fix. How they simulate jamming, ecm suits, or enhanced targeters could easily be applied to inventing targeting computers being able to handle so many weapons or implement methods for "dead aim" style weapons with variations of a cone of fire system common with FPS games.

Edited by Phades, 02 November 2011 - 06:02 PM.


#109 jodahtame

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:07 PM

For me this is an important issue. Those of us that palyed CBT know what a thrill it was to sit there with the books, calculators in hand and design our personal ride over and over for hours. I do belive they need to be careful on how they implement it, but I want a full customization like in the books. Now mind you, you will have to pay for it. As it is stated on one of my old rule books: "Life is cheap, Battlemechs are expensive." Any refit, hell even basic repairs take time and money, which was one of my beefs with MW3 and MW4 with the mobile field bases and repair stations, just plain dumb from a lore perspective. While I think the MW4 style of limiting what weapons go where makes some sense in that they had limited time to replace weapons in the game (you are not gonna ignore your missions for several months while your techs retinker you baby) I want this game to allow full refit but the visuals need to be tehre so when we see a modded mech walk ont o the field we can immediatly tell soemthing is different about it. Laser barrels tend to look different than an AC or missle rack. So, as long as they have a system where you pay the c-bills and are willing to have your precious mech sitting in shop for months as they restrip the armor, haul in the new engine, and rewire the hell out of it, give the full customization option. If they want you to be able to on the fly mod your machine, then stick with MW4 system. IMHO.

#110 Stonewall

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:27 PM

I am in favor of a full mechlab. A proper combat and economy model would solve any min/max/boat issues.

Edited by stonewall, 02 November 2011 - 06:27 PM.


#111 infinite xaer0

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:29 PM

*sigh* yes, there should be a mechlab in this game, and yes there should be restrictions, but why do we have to limit our choice of options to mechanics that were used in previous games, specifically MW4?

#112 fearfactory

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:35 PM

No MechLab.

Stick with canon designs. They're already well balanced

View Postjodahtame, on 02 November 2011 - 06:07 PM, said:

For me this is an important issue. Those of us that palyed CBT know what a thrill it was to sit there with the books, calculators in hand and design our personal ride over and over for hours. I do belive they need to be careful on how they implement it, but I want a full customization like in the books. Now mind you, you will have to pay for it. As it is stated on one of my old rule books: "Life is cheap, Battlemechs are expensive." Any refit, hell even basic repairs take time and money, which was one of my beefs with MW3 and MW4 with the mobile field bases and repair stations, just plain dumb from a lore perspective. While I think the MW4 style of limiting what weapons go where makes some sense in that they had limited time to replace weapons in the game (you are not gonna ignore your missions for several months while your techs retinker you baby) I want this game to allow full refit but the visuals need to be tehre so when we see a modded mech walk ont o the field we can immediatly tell soemthing is different about it. Laser barrels tend to look different than an AC or missle rack. So, as long as they have a system where you pay the c-bills and are willing to have your precious mech sitting in shop for months as they restrip the armor, haul in the new engine, and rewire the hell out of it, give the full customization option. If they want you to be able to on the fly mod your machine, then stick with MW4 system. IMHO.


I spent more of my time playing canon designs. We played customs and they got real old real fast.

#113 goon

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:39 PM

I would like a MW4 style Mechlab, but a bit more expanded and evolved as to allow for engines,gyros, additional external armor choices and what not.

It still avoids the min/max problem and works well for mech balancing, isn't that far of a departure from lore, and as it was in MW4, pretty easy for a new player to grasp.

Edited by goon, 02 November 2011 - 06:41 PM.


#114 Havoc2

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:03 PM

I'm really torn with this.

On 1 hand, I love customizing my 'Mech. Anyone who says "The skilled player knows that when XXXX 'Mech is in the fight, it's carrying YYYYY weapon loadout" is dead wrong. The skilled player will approach that 'Mech based on their own loadout and adjust their approach as they start getting hit by whatever weapons that person is carrying. If you get hit by 15 different lasers, you can be pretty sure that heat will be an issue for them, if missile boat, get in close or get behind something etc.

On the other hand, I think it would be nice and simpler if the devs just loaded the 'Mechs that they are planning to and provided access through whatever means they intend to the other variants.
Let's face it, almost each 'Mech in the game generally has 5 or 6 different loadouts as described in the books, loadouts varying by intended role (fire support, urban brawler, recon etc).

Now, if a MechBay is introduced, there NEEDS to be a restriction ALA MW4 as to what weapon you can put where. You can't stick a PPC in the forehead of an Atlas just because there are 2 slots there (as an example). What might work is restrict the weapon based on weight/size restriction instead of simply slots.
So even though a LLaser might fit in the Atlas's forehead, the weapon platform can't support the weight, so you can put 2 MLasers there instead.
Using this method, you can also restrict ammunition-based weapons. Even if the launcher can be mounted there, will you be able to load up all the ammunition that you want?

Edited by }{avoc, 02 November 2011 - 07:06 PM.


#115 CrescentHawk

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:09 PM

I voted for limited refit. Customization needs to be in the game but it shouldn't be completely unlimited. MW4's system wasn't bad I would be happy enough with a very similar one.

#116 OnLashoc

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:11 PM

PLEASE for the sake of baby jeebus, ALLOW DOUBLE CLICKING TO ADD AND REMOVE WEAPONS TO MECHS!

#117 Mezzanine

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:14 PM

A big part of the fun for me has always been testing out new fittings and testing them in the field. The customization also seems like it would lend itself well to the MMO setting as it allows for more bells and whistles to chase after and implement.

This is another vote for the MW4 system, I liked that oldschool mechs had set hardpoints while omni mechs had greater flexibility. A big reason for this is that working within design restrictions adds to the skill required to make a custom build, and also makes sense from a visual and tactical standpoint (basic knowledge about the weapons a chassis could fit, and visually fitting obvious markers like missile racks or guns for arms).

Edited by Mezzanine, 02 November 2011 - 07:16 PM.


#118 IS Wolf

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:02 PM

Really needs repeating, I guess.

But the MW4 Mechlab was worthless.

It didn't stop the boating that others are complaining about, it doesn't allow for canon configs like the Mad Dog C, Summoner B, Cougars B and C and the list just goes on. So why folks are championing it, completely eludes me.

Edited by IS-Wolf, 02 November 2011 - 08:58 PM.


#119 Xhaleon

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:10 PM

View Postmwhighlander, on 02 November 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

can't, however, take a Gladiator, fill it with 3 CERPPCs and 2 CGauss Rifles, JJ's and heatsinks/ammo and just go. (MW4 Poptart classic).


Uh, Highlander?

If you did a (liberal) downgrade of the Executioner's engine to 3/5 and reduced the armor by a half-ton, you could barely just fit two Gauss Rifles with a ton of ammo each, plus three ER PPCS.

With three jump jets, you'd have enough space for 18 DHS. You would also generate 47 heat from firing your weapons, plus the minimum of 3 heat points from using jump jets (even if you can't poptart in the tabletop). 50 - 36 = 14, which is just on the spot for mech shutdown rolls. Now, if the Executioner simply stood still, it could fire all of them and still be relatively safe, plus it could jet out of the way to cool down on the next turn.

#120 Kaillith

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:12 PM

Preferably, i'd rather have a full mech lab by my side. Full access to markets (legit and black and clan (go wolf!)), customizable mech parts and as much as we can fit into it.





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