179 replies to this topic

[Airwolf]

It's really interesting reading this thread, all the 'yes' and 'no', 'pros' and 'cons', 'dos' and 'don'ts' etc. Personally, I'd go for full customization, cause if you want to talk 'canon', you have to remember that ALL the 'standard' non-clan book mechs were:
[1] Wish-list spec'd by the highest-ups (many or most of whom *never* even sat in a cockpit)
[2] Final spec'd by committee (who never really seemed to understand what 'balanced loadout' truly meant), which usually killed the wish-list specs due to price
[3] Designed by engineers (eg1: Griffin - *ALL* weapons on the right side .. eg2: whaddaya mean there's all those extra heat sinks and *NONE* are in the empty leg critical slots??? - need I say more?)

Remember... the non-clan book mechs are *production* mechs ... just like you have production cars and concept cars as well as customized cars.

And all those 'variants'???.... you *DO* realize that most of those came into existence when:
[A] The 'rich-kid' Mechwarrior pilot was ********, moaning, and groaning to his poor old tech that his mech was a piece of **** because of this and that and the tech *finally* had enough of the ******** and decided to *do* something about it - OR -
[B] That poor old tech was looking at the mass of twisted metal that used to be a mech and said -- "What the hell am I supposed to do with *THIS* ****? <grin>

Let 'em customize to their hearts extent ... but it's probably gonna cost ya big ... in time *AND* CBills ... stuff like replacing standard duty actuators with heavy duty actuators for those high-recoil weapons or replacing hip and leg and foot actuators if you're adding jump jets to a chassis that wasn't originally designed with jump jets in mind or having to shore up a particular mounting point cause you want to put in an AC20 where a MG used to be ... per the original books any item could be put anywhere as long as there were enough critical spaces to support it, however, that didn't necessarily mean that it could be done easily, quickly, or cheaply. Just don't necessarily make it stupid hard to do either. I'm pretty sure that most of the Solaris 7 Champion mechs aren't your standard production mechs <grin>.

Customizations will spice up the game, and help keep those hard-core enthusiasts on their toes like when they turn their back on a Jenner (7/11/5) cause they know it only has medium-ranged weapons (max range: 9) and it's still 21 hexes out ... imagine their surprise when they get popped by a Large Laser (max range: 15) ... in the back no less <evil grin>

P.S. Don't go crying to your tech when your 'concept-mech' gets slagged ... <lol>

[Zerik]

ice trey, on 01 November 2011 - 03:34 PM, said:

This is a really touchy subject. Mech labs and customization are fun, but in the case of Mechwarrior 4, even with "limited" customization, it lead to some of the worst cases of min-maxing, making 'mechs that are supposed to be able to take ages to take down get dropped in one volley. Two at the most if you're bringing Atlases or something. Combine that with jump sniping and it made any time spent in MW4 online an unpleasant experience - there were no ways to counter the jump-sniping but with more jump sniping.

What I'd recommend for customization is what you'd find in the Battletech rule books - Mechs aren't meant to be customized. They're a mass of complex machinery and product of massive amounts of R&D, not just lego-blocks that fit neatly onto each-other. What Battletech did was that when you tried to customize a 'mech (See: BMR; Strategic Operations;) there was always a pretty high chance that something goes wrong. A medium laser could either break when you cram it in, or if you do cram it in, it is horribly inaccurate or shorts out after the first shot; New Jump Jets could spring leaks, venting plasma into your 'mech, causing you to generate twice as much heat when you jump; A new engine might vent more heat into the machine with every movement; Autocannons could have a chance to jam...

What was more, the whole process was ***-awful expensive, and anything more than a small refit required you to take your 'mech to a factory to get the parts installed, Slap these costs on the massive costs of customizing a 'mech in the first place (Man-hours, engineering calculations, etc), as well as the added difficulty of repairing a 'mech that's already customized (Repair cost modifiers based on extent of modifications), and keeping a custom 'mech really becomes something that only the super-rich can muster, and even then, THEY would likely prefer spending those C-bills on a 'new mech for a lancemate.

Long story short, while customization should be allowed, there's got to be some significant reason why the players should want to stick with Stock configurations. Time, Money, and Risk should be key components. If someone's going to make their ***-mode battlemech, are they really willing to risk that the whole thing is gimped until they buy a new one?

This is how Battletech has worked in the past, and I'd like to see it treated as such, again.

^ This, pretty much...
And seeing as the game takes place before the Clan Invasion, unless they are starting everything on the first year of conflicts...OmniMech technology most likely will not be seen unless the latter scenario is in effect, in which case I would be perfectly happy to roll out with the 'Mech I fell in love with in my introduction to the series in MechWarrior 2, das Timber Wolf.

[Pht]

Airwolf, on 01 November 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

Let 'em customize to their hearts extent ... but it's probably gonna cost ya big ... in time *AND* CBills ... stuff like replacing standard duty actuators with heavy duty actuators for those high-recoil weapons or replacing hip and leg and foot actuators if you're adding jump jets to a chassis that wasn't originally designed with jump jets in mind or having to shore up a particular mounting point cause you want to put in an AC20 where a MG used to be ...

That would create a group of long time/elite players who would have fully min-maxed munchkinmechs that would pound on the greenhorns very badly... it would be nice to have an equal playing field of opportunity instead of "castes" that people get stuck into (newbie, elite, noRLifer, etc).

[xdaikatanax]

Without Mechlab, you're pulling, at the minimum, some of that shisty Microsoft garbage that doesn't let you truly customize. I want the option to swap ferro-fibrous if I so choose. Heck, if I want my LRM20 ammo right next to my core with no CASE, so be it. I'll be the one that pays the consequences (if there are any... )

[Cranston Snord]

BatWing, on 01 November 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

A Catapult is a Catapult. To me, removing the missile launchers to replace with PPCs or ACs or LL is an abomination. I don t care if someone did it in the past. The original Battletech didn t have that ****. You should be able to modify missile settings, smaller or bigger racks, that make sense. Artemis or LRM or SRM that make sense.

To play devils advocate:

The Draconis Combine has a habit of swapping the LRM racks out on the Catapult for PPCs.


Okay, I can get behind customizations. But look at the stratops rules for such customizations. They're not trivial in canon, and quite expensive. Furthermore, given the fact that factory and astech time can be better used in a myriad of other functions, only the best mechwarriors got to configure their own designs. I do not like the concept of every Tom, ****, and Sally being able to marysue their favorite design to oblivion.

That's from a canon perspective.

From a purely MechWarrior perspective, the MechLab has been integral to the series since, what? MW2? I cannot recall if the original MechWarrior included it, but that is immaterial. Most MechWarrior players are familiar with, and expect, a MechLab.

My suggestion is this:

1: Allow permanent customizations on some sort of point basis. The more you excel, the more points you earn. Spend the points customizing your 'Mech in rough accordance to BT rules.

2: Non-fluff full customization battles where you can go hog wild with whatever you want, allowing all sorts of customization without paying for it(so long as you own the base chassis) and whatnot. These changes won't be permanent, but you can save the configurations. Call it simulator battle or something. Reduced XP and C-Bill earnings, but no repair costs.

3: Full-fluff battles where you fight the mech in your hangar, be it a stock ride or Banshee modded to oblivion with salvaged Clantech. These battles will result in possible death(very negotiable here), definite real damage to mech that must be repaired before going into another full-fluff battle, yet CAN(cannot be stressed enough) generate far more XP and C-Bills. Conversely, if you do poorly, you are left holding the bag with a big repair bill and a small paycheck for your efforts. Just like in canon.

This provides an outlet for both parties, makes for an interesting method of learning the game without relative risk, trying out that planned customization before committing to spending points/cbills on it, while retaining a "real battle" feel in the higher-risk games.

Edited by cranston snord, 01 November 2011 - 07:13 PM.

[crabmeister]

cranston snord, on 01 November 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

[****]

Cranston, your daughter is hot. I want to bang her.


That is all.

[Cranston Snord]

crabmeister, on 01 November 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

Cranston, your daughter is hot. I want to bang her.


That is all.

http://www.sarna.net...ulars-color.png

Yeah... yeah... I can see that...

[IS Wolf]

cranston snord, on 01 November 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

From a purely MechWarrior perspective, the MechLab has been integral to the series since, what? MW2? I cannot recall if the original MechWarrior included it, but that is immaterial. Most MechWarrior players are familiar with, and expect, a MechLab.

Heck, the Crescent Hawk's Inception already had Customized Mechs.
The Commando starts out as a stock COM-2D (1x medium laser, 1x SRM4, 1x SRM6), and you can tweak it twice.
3x medium laser, 1x SRM6 and the last upgrade puts it at 4x medium lasers, 6x small lasers (but it has a serious heat problem, also I think they slapped on another ton of heatsink as well)

The Locust goes from a stock LCT-1V (1x medium laser, 2x machine guns with ammo), and again it can be tweaked twice.
3x medium lasers and the last upgrade is 3x medium lasers and 2 small lasers, but also an engine downgrade making it go at 7/11 as opposed to 8/12

The Wasp goes from a stock WSP-1A (1x Medium Laser, 1 SRM2), and again can be tweaked twice.
From 2x Medium Lasers + 1T of extra armour, to 5 Medium Lasers. (Although it loses its jumpjets to get those extra lasers in, iirc)

And finally the Stinger. A stock STG-3R. (1x Medium Lasers, 2x machine guns with ammo), again can be tweaked twice.
1x Medium laser, 4x small laser, and the final version is 3x Medium Lasers, 4x small lasers. (Again the jumpjets get ripped out, and iirc, they add another heatsink as well)

Rest of the machines weren't customizable, but that was probably more an issue of coding limitations, or possibly game balance or even oversight.

Other mechs were the Chameleon (and you could start out with this), an Urbie (if you were extremely lucky in the arena) and dependent upon which computer version you had a Javelin and a Spider. I think the oversight one is likely, because I once managed to beat all 4 Jenners sent after me with the Chameleon and took one down with a headshot by way of the large laser. And no salvage was possible.

[Jack Deth]

I'd say allow some modification, but put restrictions on it. Restrict it by common sense as to how much you could realistically modify the structure of a mech, and restrict it by making it cost a lot in c-bills and refit time (omni's excepted), just like in the books.

Allowing unlimited or near-unlimited refits kind of removes the whole point of omnimechs. They pay for this ability by the mech costing a lot more, and weapon pods costing a lot more than just bare weapons.

Edited by Jack Deth, 01 November 2011 - 08:49 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Open mechlab like MW3, although I'd be open to some restrictions. Didnt really care for MW4's mechlab.
And who are these people voting no mechlab? Why even play MW?

[Thomas Hogarth]

Note that more often than not, people misuse omnis on the tabletop. Custom omni configs that mount extra armor, drop non-omni equipment, and change the amount of ferro/endo crits in each location are not really omnis.

[Thomas Hogarth]

silentwolff, on 01 November 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

And who are these people voting no mechlab? Why even play MW?

These people are canon-correct Battletech fans, who are hoping for a MechWarrior game that actually takes canon seriously for a change.

[SilentWolff]

thomas hogarth, on 01 November 2011 - 08:53 PM, said:

These people are canon-correct Battletech fans, who are hoping for a MechWarrior game that actually takes canon seriously for a change.

There were different varients for almost every mech since the early 3026 readout, so I dont see why you shouldnt have the option to mix it up.

[T S Hawk]

The mech lab needs to be in it. How else are you supposed to repair or upgrade your mech

[Agent Cooper]

I like the idea of being able to change the weapons load out and ammo and armour options, as well as being able to add better electronic warfare capabilities but thats about as far as Id like it to go.

[Gaius Cavadus]

MW4 got it right. The TT rules for mech customization are total **** and need to be burned alive.

[Naduk]

many players are concerned with min/max loud outs and dislike the idea of a mech lab

given that there are several stock mechs with the BT cannon that are min/max by design
i dont believe this is anything to be afraid of

however, building such a powerful behemoth should cost you a fortune in c-bills !
every single change made to your mech should cost ALOT of in game creds

just like in mw2:mercs
you really needed to weigh up if it was really worth spending the money on removing stock items , purchasing replacements , calculating extra heat , purchasing and adding more hsinks

not only should it cost alot , it should take time
it would take a long time for your engineers to strip your Atlas and even longer to turn it into a laser boat
thus while ur mech is in the shop.... you shouldn't be able to use it, ect ect

i think if the devs put a but of thought into the mech lab it wont be an issue

[pursang]

A MechWarrior game without a MechLab is like a car without wheels - it just needs have it. I've played most BattleTech-based computer games and although I agree that having a lot of customization is great - both as a way to diversify the game and to make each pilot individualistic, I feel that it should be heavily regulated in it's use. Either that be with the MW4 system, or a high-cost-per-modification system, or a chance for new systems to backfire, or a combination of those factors. There should be some kind of "price" to pay to make the 'Mech you want to play.

An unlocking system would make sense given the type of game this is shaping out to be.

[CaveMan]

Min-maxed 'Mechs aren't an issue if the game properly balances heat (which means overheating needs to have dire consequences as in the board game), range, weapon reload times, and ammunition concerns. If you pack 30 small lasers into a 'Mech, there should be serious consequences. By the same token, the single big gun approach should be viable, and everything inbetween.

[Catherine Truscott]

Following the MW4 scheme would suffice, but I would prefer a bit more versatility. No need to shift armor, structure, engines, etc. But weaponry, electronics, jump jets, and sinks should be fully customizable. And I am sure some would like the ability to access TSM.