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What happened to the quality of computer games of old?


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#241 xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 05:28 PM

Sadly this is becoming a new trend. Why finish a game when you can ship it half done then simply patch it up over time to satisfy customers with quality/content they should have already had at day 1? It's a cheaper strategy for publishers. You listed good examples. Capcom is also a good example. They are prone to releasing an average product for 60$ then want extra for DLC content that should have already been on the table at release. They also charge you to unlock content that shipped on the game disc you already paid for. How nice.

Other games simply aren't tested enough pre-release; like Diablo 3. Its launch was a disaster, and this is from a company that launched numerous multiplayer heavy games, usually with smoother launches. Now it feels like they are ripping off their own brand names. SC2 and D3 just doesn't have any of the passion that the former titles had. They're like Star Wars prequels. They look pretty... and that's about it.

Edited by Bluten, 22 August 2012 - 06:16 PM.


#242 Aodr Arnarson

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 05:47 PM

View PostKomaru, on 13 August 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

This is a topic very near and dear to my heart. I have a couple of thoughts on why this happened, and I will outline them below:



1) Profit vs. Quality
In the old days, the people who designed these games we now yearn for were indeed out to make some money on the endeavor. We can't ignore that. But they were a different kind of people than the ones making the decisions today. In the old days, people wanted to put together a good product that matched the dream they had in their heads. If it sold well, AWESOME! They could make another game. Maybe a sequel or a prequel, or something entirely new. If it didn't sell, then they either tried again, or went and did something else. They dared, and either succeeded or failed.

Today, the big decisions makers are generally part of a business team. While they may not be involved in the game creation directly, (because they don't understand concepts like balance, risk and reward, etc.) they dictate what the game must do to maintain profitability. I firmly believe that the current game market is the result of business people getting their hands into things they should have stayed out of, but that's a rant for another time. The goal of business people is to maintain a profitable business, and if making a game is the means, they will make whatever game will guarantee them another quarter. Herein lies the problem of never taking a risk.


2) Risk vs. Reward
No one wants to take risks. It's that simple. American society at this point is EXTREMELY risk-averse, and no where is this more true than in our beloved gaming industry. Even those of you pointing to Kickstarter should realize one of it's key points is that there is NO RISK to backing a product. I'm not saying this is BAD, but just keep it in mind. Games used to be (relatively) purely creative products. They had a spirit and a dream, and were an attempt to realize a story or game mechanic and share it with people who would enjoy it. Now, games cannot risk being flops (yet so many are), because they must support massive companies. The more people are affected by any given risk, the more likely we are to not take that risk.

These days, it is all about rewards for minimal effort. Now I love some games like MWO, or Blacklight, where you are guaranteed good credits for every game played and it is literally impossible to dig yourself so far into debt that you can't play anymore. But that's what old single-player games used to do. Look at the Armored Core series, where you could suck so badly that you couldn't afford to repair you AC and had to start the game over from the beginning. Look at Steel Battalion, where if you died, you were DEAD, and had to start the game over from the beginning. These games were challenging and required you to learn, to risk everything for a reward that was not guaranteed.

TLBFestus and Squeak made some excellent points concerning the market these games are marketed to , which is us, my friends. We also like rewards with no risk. To a point. Who doesn't? Games like MWO, Blacklight, World of Tanks, even non "MMO" games like BF3 all offer rewards instantly after every battle. Granted this is a characteristic that has been in RPGs since forever, but when it was applied to games with 10 minute rounds, things went crazy.

3) Oh, look, is that the topic over there?

I got a bit side-tracked, and I apologize for that. Let me offer some solutions and hope to close this out.

4) iOS, Android, Kickstarter, and the Future of Good Games
We're back to square one. Or rather, square 1.2. We are back in the days where a group of dedicated individuals can make the game they want without marketers or investors leaning over their shoulder demanding changes. I'll be the first to admit, I have RAGED about the mobile games market as "horrible" and "an atrocity to gaming that does not deserve to share the name 'gaming'". This was perhaps three years ago. Since then, hardware has come out that allow us to play amazing games on mobile devices. Three guys can get together to build the game of their dreams and nearly anyone in the world willing to plunk down $5 can play it.

We have reached a renaissance in gaming. The OP asked what happened to the games of old. Well, what happened was they went away when business people invaded our hobby. But that's fine. Like a well-played game of C&C, we let them take our base, build over our refineries and declare victory. But enough of us saw it coming. We took a couple of tanks, and that MCV they didn't even think we had, and we're building a new one. One where the kind of man who thought "Hey, what if I made a game about a plumber fighting dinosaurs to rescue a princess?" and wasn't immediately countered with "Does it have guns? Is he ex-special ops? How are there dinosaurs? That's not going to sell." can dream and design to his heart's content.


I have to agree with this guy, to answer Op's question involves a lot of politics and everybody has different ideas with that. I personally believe very strongly that it's just the result of crony capitalism, businesses out to make as much money as possible while spending the least money possible. Cost-effectiveness really, and because businessmen are humans too, they are short sighted and don't believe developing a great game is very cost-effective.

#243 shotokan5

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:39 PM

1. The Holy Dollar. Especially EA can be held responsible for the fall of quality games. They bought up a lot of companies fired the staff and made video games.
2. Its like the movies . If you can't think of anything to do then do it again. the same applies to games. Not to say that some are not very good,
but the creative people are a threight to many companies they think to much and you have to pay them to much.
3.Video machines entered the market sega, nintendo, MS, Sony. Since the power and programing can be the same for each machine, it is easier to code and just throw out arcade games as fast as you can making minor changes. The only problem is that you are limited by the system itself. So compared to a top of the line PC well to I have to answer.
4.A Tech in PC's exploded and it got to the point that you had to build one every year to keep up. Thankfully it has slowed down for a little while. PC game malers face a tough problem. One person has a system that is so old that it has no way to keep up. then there are almons t levels and parts. Last we come to the elite. Not bragging but I am one of them. Their is no game that I can not run full blast and get great frame rates and quality on a 73 inch screen. So we are ready for the best. Companies have to make a game that to some degree fits in all those areas. Bummer. That is one reason PC games are for the most part not to the standard they could be. I wish I could build my system and give one to each of you we could rock the house.. That is not going to happen. to build a system piece by piece is not hard but why do that when you can play tennis on a Wii. That is the biggest problem the PC industry faces. I do not have an answer to that.
5 I know that this is sort of repeating but its important. today many films are signed to a 3 to 5 deals if they think they have a chance. Iron man, The Avengers , Batman, I think that makes the movie point. Sometimes they may shoot 2 at the same time saving money and locking actors into a contract saves money also. Games are the same . Battlefield. ,Call of duty,total war. They will keep making them unt\il people stop purchasing them. If this game takes off as I think it will watch the MS and EA's of the world will make all these guys ritch and fire them next week. Then go back to making the MW cheap and fast with add on packs. Money money. 3025 died because MS saw it as a threat to the MW games they were coming out with so they go to ea and says here is a lot of money and make it go away it did. Then to add insult to injury they purchased it and put it in the dead games warehouse. Enjoy this game when it is released because the dogs will come sniffing when it brakes all records for on line play esp with joy sticks. Sorry, had to do that. We can thank EA and MS for lowering not only wideo games but made a short attempt to kill PC games also. There Flight is a joke and an insult to everyone that has purchased the flight sims and made them millions. . When a company like Sony can lose a billion for 4 years in a row and no one has jumped out a window well what does that say. Just wait if these guys make a winner the big boys will crush it one way or another. Could you turn down 50 mill to be set for the rest of your life. they can move to the tropics and sit next to a young person handing them drinks. No deadlines, whining and no snow.

#244 Melcyna

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:05 AM

View PostDragonlord, on 22 August 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:


What I downloaded was a zip file containing the files required to install it.
But the process in which you install it is a bit odd, which makes me think it dont work properly with Win 7.


Found it here http://www.epcgaming...ock-2-full-rip/
Its almost as if you do a double install.

After some searching I came across this site http://www.systemshock.org/index.php, where you can find tools to get it running under win 7.
But it dont work with the version I downloaded as you either need the original CD with the game files or a digital ISO version for the tools to work.

That doesn't make sense as the tools should be operating on the only assets it can possibly alter ie: the one installed in your computer...

what exactly does it needs the original disc for?

#245 MrMojoPin

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:22 AM

mech2 was a great game, ghost bear was just horriable and mercs made me want to yack

#246 Dooms Day

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:35 AM

I still find myself loading up games from the mid 90's. they look so dated but sure seems like developers put more time into them.

#247 Bansheedragon75

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 04:30 AM

@ shotokan5 Would you be so kind as to use some paragraphs in your text please.

The wall of text you posted is completely unreadable to me.

#248 Bansheedragon75

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 04:48 AM

View PostMelcyna, on 23 August 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

That doesn't make sense as the tools should be operating on the only assets it can possibly alter ie: the one installed in your computer...

what exactly does it needs the original disc for?


Not the original disc per SE, but the content from the original disc, copied to the HD apparently.
It would not recognize the files I used, either installed or otherwise.

#249 shotokan5

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:25 AM

sorry but I do get carried away more with content than proper grammer. I will try to better.

#250 SakuranoSenshi

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:29 AM

View Postshotokan5, on 23 August 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

sorry but I do get carried away more with content than proper grammer. I will try to better.


Pedantic, I know but... that's a formatting problem not a grammer [sic] one. It's also grammar. ;-)

^ Meant in good humour.

#251 Thornix

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:49 AM

I usualy know what games to get because I read Gameinformer magazine. I'm half Xbox gamer and half PC. One day I was going to get AC5 for my Xbox and I was doing that because I loved playing Armored Core: For Answer and the disc got broken. Gameinformer gave AC5 a rating of 6.5 out of 10 (which is a bit worse than "average" 7), but I didn't listen. The story made no sense to me and I liked the customization better on AC:fA. I now learned to trust gameinformer a lot more, but not completely because the editors of the magazine are still diferent people and have diferent opinions on what they specificly like about games.

#252 SakuranoSenshi

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:55 AM

Learning to critically evaluate other people's opinions of stuff and know how that translates to your preferences is a useful skill. It only falls down when you end up with horribly skewed reviews as occasionally happens (and I am sure advertizing revenune had nothing to do with it, oh no).

#253 Bansheedragon75

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:48 AM

Reading another of the countless threads about 3rd person view in MWO today, it occurred to me that there is one big factor that I think all the replies here have not covered.

I'm talking about all those spoiled 12 year old kids who are used to getting what they want all the time.
I noticed this especially in MMO, where you have a very vocal minority go around demanding they get whatever stupid little thing they can think of, and when someone dont agree with their wishes(demands) they start calling them names.


Please Note: I'm not saying that all 12 year old kids are like this, many 12 year old are far more mature then those 2-3 times their age.

I noticed that allot of MMO developers seem more than happy to cater to this very vocal minority, which in turn leads to the ruination of what is originally a good game.

WOW is a good example here, where blizzard originally had a good game, and then started catering more and more to the casual crowd making everything easier an easier with each new iteration.

#254 Badgerpants

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostWoska, on 13 August 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

The modern game is much more about the graphics and whatever "innovative" feature the developer has come up with.

Back in the day when graphics were heavily restricted by available technology, the game had to be fun to play. But now you have people that will literally look at the box and say "wow, look at those graphics, I'm going to buy this game" without ever actually knowing what it's about.


This, to the max!

Makes me pine for the days of Elite, Uriduim, 180 Degreese and the original Pirates! Simple games to be sure but you had so much fun playing!

#255 TROWAHC

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:09 AM

Well with honesty all your answer can come down to one thing. Money.
Publishers want there money regardless of the quality of the product and will push out a unfinished product. This isn't every publisher but some will do this.
Games cost millions of dollars and some developers want there cut and don't care if it works or not.
Somtimes games are too ambisious and dont get the required quality control of testers both paid or players just not giving good feedback.

In the end gaming is big business and people are greedy. Thats why I love most indie games and thinks like kickstarter because you know that most developers haven't done this for a money grap and love the game they are making and will make sure they do the best by the game and not there pockets.

Edited by TROWAHC, 24 August 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#256 DrHat

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:22 AM

I actually wrote a brief article about this very topic in a professional setting within the game industry where the original question was "Is it just me or have games become too easy??"

I will happily paste it here if anyone is interested :)

#257 Bansheedragon75

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:45 AM

View PostDrHat, on 24 August 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

I actually wrote a brief article about this very topic in a professional setting within the game industry where the original question was "Is it just me or have games become too easy??"

I will happily paste it here if anyone is interested :)


I would very much like to read that article.
Sounds like interesting reading.

#258 Elessar

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:51 AM

View PostDrHat, on 24 August 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

I actually wrote a brief article about this very topic in a professional setting within the game industry where the original question was "Is it just me or have games become too easy??"

I will happily paste it here if anyone is interested ;)


That would be nice :rolleyes:

#259 DrHat

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

Okay, as I said, its a short article that doesn't contain much in terms of sources for this, but they do exist and the article was mostly directly at people I was debating the topic "Is it just me or have games become too easy??" about, in the gaming industry.


Game Community vs Game Industry - Why games are easy & why we must outgrow that

I would just like to quite immediately say that I am very much sympathetic with those here who say that they pine for the days of yore of games that would keep you trying to beat that one levels, or several levels over the course of several hours, even days or weeks. Part of the fun in this, I think, has something to do with the desire of hard-earned achievements and sense of accomplishment (Even if only in the context of a meaningless game, objectively speaking that is - It was fun!) and much more.

Now that I've provided a terse preamble of my position, I would like to take the slightly contrary position in this and say that not only do I think we are seeing a slight curve upwards in difficulty in the overall, but also that I think in some way that we are ourselves at fault in some ways to this trend.
Video Games, in the 80's and early 90's were by the most common measure, a concept with which we had little understanding and mostly appealed to a, comparatively to today, very narrow group of people - Particularly (but not exclusively) those that are, by some generalized agreement, described as "nerds". Indeed the term "Gamer" to my knowledge (which is going on pure memory of my own time back then) wasn't one that really recognized in any sort of real way beyond those who cared about such distinctions, which to say at that time wasn't many.
Now the combination of a new concept (Video Games) and a very small (relative) interest group, meant that those who were likely to play anything at all in the first place, were people who by and large were already used to beating hard challenges with their minds (I would just quickly add here that I recognize that this isn't the only reason games used to be harder, but it was a big factor in my view) and the same kind of people making these games, this is what you got. Games that were made to beat the player, as opposed to help them win were very much the order of the day and to many, like myself, this was part of the fun..Beating the game, which I think is a large part of the reason that phrase came into existence in the first place.

Now all of a sudden in our modern day and age, we have gaming becoming much much more mainstream and as a result if you want some measure of control of success over your game, your safest bet is to make it as accessible and (here is the clincher) playable to as many people as possible without breaking the general premise of the game.

Now I know at this stage some of you (perhaps a lot of you) will be inclined to disagree with that and point to examples such as Portal, DayZ, Minecraft or some such games as either being hard or not tailored to a specific crowd and you would not be wrong. However that is not what I said - What I said was that if want to make life easy for yourself and consciously increase your chances of some returns on your game, the aforementioned "tailoring" is what you would do. Some people don't do this and indeed some come out on the other side with great victories in this respect - But that is a lot of gambling to do with, perhaps a lot of, money and its very rare that you will find investors willing to jump on that boat as opposed to doing something tested and tried which is, given the standards of those of us who consider ourselves "Gamers" in the old sense, unremarkable but still sufficiently profitable and most importantly, much safer.

Then, on top of all of that (as if it couldn't get any "worse") we come in (and by we, I mean us old and new Gamers that want a hard challenge and, as someone rightly pointed out, elements of fear and hard earned thrills) and still buy these games.

Why do we buy these games? Well, despite our annoyances with these various titles that sometimes bores the living daylights out of our challenge-thirsting skulls, we still like to play games and naively harbor some uncontrollable hope that lingers about one day things will return to "normal" . This isn't a bad thing, its just perhaps a little sad and/or unfortunate.

Many times, us that like really hard games are regarded as a "minority" in the gaming industry - A sentiment and opinion I cannot begin to describe my utter disagreement with, and even if we were/are a minority I think it can be said to some extent that by far we are more important to the ingenuity and progress of games and the people who play them (This may sound elitist to you but I am not trying to be, in fact I think elitism is missing the point)
To begin to sum this all up, the essence of it is that at the moment if you want hard/challenge games with truly new ideas, it has to come from indie developers and I applaud each and every one of them for their efforts, many of them don't get rewarded enough in my opinion.Besides all that, we have a gaming culture that is broadly speaking, still in its late infancy in regards to its tolerance-levels and challenge-expectations.
Until we collectively grow out of this (Which I think has begun) and for as long as you can get goodly returns on games that are often, in my view at least, a dime a dozen when it comes to design, flow, practices and difficulty, and for as long as you can get us collectively hyped up again and again over these titles even if we know whats probably coming (a disappointment) it will go on like this.

I could add a lot of examples about how there is a practice of building throw-away MMO's for the explicit purpose of making a profit in the initial year and the canning the title as well as other equally vile ideas like it, however for now I think I've made my point.

Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for reading and have a nice day. I look forward to any eventual challenges to what I've said :)

- Jacob Damkjaer

#260 MilitantMonk

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:56 AM

The simplest advice I have: Put your money where your mouth is. Don't buy products from companies that have bad business practices.

I haven't purchased anything from EA since BF 2142 and haven't purchased a Sony product since PS2 which I got used years later. It's not that hard, heck those companies make it easy by repeatedly having awful DRM and making terrible decisions with their products. If you feel you're really missing out just fire off a letter to the company explaining how you'd like to partake in their product but decision X and practice Y of their company has taught you not to. It lets them know that these decisions hurt their bottom line and is pretty cathartic. Just keep it concise and civil.

Kickstarter. Just go there and look around. You may just find something to make your day! If you see something that makes you jump out of your seat and throw money at the screen...well... :)

Old games are still good. I still play old NES and computer games. I've had Heroes of Might & Magic 2 installed on every computer I've owned since the mid 90s. Just because they're old doesn't diminish how fun they can be. Classics may age but they are always a blast to play. Yeah Zelda looks a little rough and pixely but it's so easy to forget all about that when the gameplay and fun are there.





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