466 replies to this topic

[Skadi]

These are not the forums you are looking for
*waves atlai's hand infront of OP like a jedai*

Edited by Skadi, 31 August 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Brenden]

Pht, on 31 August 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

If you use the justification that you're ok to do something wrong because someone else did something wrong to you, anarchy ensues with all it's attendant horrors.



Your post came before mine. Therefore, your post is irrelavant.

If you don't agree with what I just posted here than you must disagree with what I've quoted you saying here.

Age does not renderr something un-true; and the constitution is based on an understanding of human nature; which has not, can not, and will never change.



No, it was not intended as such. The several states would have never voted to ratify it if it was not a solid standard that was hard to change.

Do you believe in the philosphy of not believing in anything without genuine evidence to back it up?

[kalabaddon]

I think we are at a point where we need a full on failure of government for us to be able to move forwards, this is not a anarchist view, just that unless we have a complete failure people will still think it can be fixed. once we have a complete failure it should get people to start caring again.

to elaborate on what I mean, social security is kinda broken, but we will keep trying to fix it, even tho there is no way that any fix for it will not anger at least 30% of the population, since that is the case there is no way to actually get it fixed. but if it was to fail 100% that would not be an issue.

same for congress, it is SOOOO broken, they all cover each others backs while they act above the law. we cant fix it, but if they where to finally do something so stupid as to render it unacceptable to the entire population, then it will get fixed!

[Skinflowers]

"Free markets and anarchy are mutually exclusive."

Wait what?!

You REALLY need to go and read about what Anarchism really is. Seriously. Anarchy != Political anarchy. It's the crashingly ill informed stick that is constantly used to villify and marginalize anarchy.

In a very broad sense, the market cannot possibly be more free than it could be under anarchism. Bakunin and Malatesta are good starting points.

Have a wikipedia link as well: http://en.wikipedia....ools_of_thought

tl;dr version: Anarchy isn't the same as chaos and the end of life as we know it.

Edited by Skinflowers, 31 August 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Felbombling]

I'm wondering at this point... can the Republicans really go into an election without putting forth an actual agenda or plan with proven math on how they intend to fix everything, if elected? It seems to me that the whole platform is the fact that Mitt is a great fella and has a wonderful smile.... and, once elected, here is what will happen! I'm on the outside looking in, obviously, but it does seem pretty kooky that this plan of attack could produce a President in a democratic society as advanced as the United States of America.

[Brenden]

StaggerCheck, on 31 August 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I'm wondering at this point... can the Republicans really go into an election without putting forth an actual agenda or plan with proven math on how they intend to fix everything, if elected? It seems to me that the whole platform is the fact that Mitt is a great fella and has a wonderful smile.... and, once elected, here is what will happen! I'm on the outside looking in, obviously, but it does seem pretty kooky that this plan of attack could produce a President in a democratic society as advanced as the United States of America.

He better not start implimenting religious-like laws in congress...

[process]

Pht, on 31 August 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

The first amendment does not legalize the act of coercing people to not vote at a polling place by the means of threatening physical violence.

You're absolutely right. Coercion-free voting is protected under Section 11(b ) of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which I should mention the Texas Republican Party wants to repeal (page 5). However, you are citing a single, isolated incident at a single polling location that the justice department examined.

Somewhat ironically, it's also worth mentions that many states, under Republican legislatures, have enacted voter ID laws which have the effect of disenfranchising poor people, seniors, and minorities, in the name of "voter fraud". Impersonation fraud, statistically does not happen. In Pennsylvania, these jerks know it:



As a result, hundreds of thousand voters could be rejected at the polls.

More, http://www.brennance...ut_voter_fraud/

Edited by process, 31 August 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[process]

StaggerCheck, on 31 August 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I'm wondering at this point... can the Republicans really go into an election without putting forth an actual agenda or plan with proven math on how they intend to fix everything, if elected? It seems to me that the whole platform is the fact that Mitt is a great fella and has a wonderful smile.... and, once elected, here is what will happen! I'm on the outside looking in, obviously, but it does seem pretty kooky that this plan of attack could produce a President in a democratic society as advanced as the United States of America.

Have you seen his running mate? That guy is HOT.

[Pht]

Brenden, on 31 August 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Do you believe in the philosphy of not believing in anything without genuine evidence to back it up?

I believe when we are making truth statements they should be based upon presuppositions that are logically coherent and that our arguments should be deduced from those presuppositions.

Its like euclidean geometry, in a way.

... and any statement that is applied as an objective universal... is a truth statement.

Skinflowers, on 31 August 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

"Free markets and anarchy are mutually exclusive."

Wait what?!

You REALLY need to go and read about what Anarchism really is. Seriously. Anarchy != Political anarchy. It's the crashingly ill informed stick that is constantly used to villify and marginalize anarchy.

Anarchy = every man does "what is right in his own eyes." This always devolves society, human nature being what it is, into "he with the biggest stick rules."

process, on 31 August 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

...it's also worth mentions that many states, under Republican legislatures, have enacted voter ID laws which have the effect of disenfranchising poor people, seniors, and minorities, in the name of "voter fraud".

Requiring an ID to vote is not wrong. It is the correct thing to do and the argument that it's somehow "disenfranchising" to the poor and minorities is fallacious and is used, functionally, only to protect vote fraud.

[qultar]

th

StaggerCheck, on 31 August 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I'm wondering at this point... can the Republicans really go into an election without putting forth an actual agenda or plan with proven math on how they intend to fix everything, if elected? It seems to me that the whole platform is the fact that Mitt is a great fella and has a wonderful smile.... and, once elected, here is what will happen! I'm on the outside looking in, obviously, but it does seem pretty kooky that this plan of attack could produce a President in a democratic society as advanced as the United States of America.

the guy that won in 2008 won on "Hope and Change"


Mitt has posted his plain online and stuff thing is most will never see it
in the US 90% of the news is left wing so the facts rarely get out
unless it fits the spin they want on it

[Sam Slade]

Pht, on 31 August 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

The word "socialism" has a meaning, which, if implemented, leads to tyranny, dictatorship, and in the marxist flavor of it, state legistlated and endorsed ******, on a massive scale.

Not true; Marxism and Socialism are NOT the same thing... you may as well contend that Democracy and Market Capitalism are the same thing.

Marxism requires a revolutionary process that is wholly absent from the tenants of Socialism and Socialist ethics. American education suffers under the long engrained misnomer that to be inclined to what is widely considered social conscinece policy is to be a Marxist or Communist. Socialist policy includes things like higer taxation and regulation to pay for infrastructure and safety that may involve a lowering of GDP. Animal Welfare, Climate Change policy, FDA regulation of pharmacuticals, etc are examples of things that may be ethically considered Socialist policy. The idea must be divorced from a mindset rooted in lazie-faire economics.

Also, please don't use a dictionary definition as a referance; cultural relativism much?

[qultar]

Pht, on 31 August 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I believe when we are making truth statements they should be based upon presuppositions that are logically coherent and that our arguments should be deduced from those presuppositions.

Its like euclidean geometry, in a way.

... and any statement that is applied as an objective universal... is a truth statement.




Anarchy = every man does "what is right in his own eyes." This always devolves society, human nature being what it is, into "he with the biggest stick rules."



Requiring an ID to vote is not wrong. It is the correct thing to do and the argument that it's somehow "disenfranchising" to the poor and minorities is fallacious and is used, functionally, only to protect vote fraud.

what gets me is you need a ID to do almost any thing
the dems have used ACORN to get the vote out for them
http://www.rottenaco...ctivityMap.html
no wonder they hate id laws

[process]

Pht, on 31 August 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Requiring an ID to vote is not wrong. It is the correct thing to do and the argument that it's somehow "disenfranchising" to the poor and minorities is fallacious and is used, functionally, only to protect vote fraud.

Good of you to ignore the rest of my post.

qultar, on 31 August 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

what gets me is you need a ID to do almost any thing
the dems have used ACORN to get the vote out for them
http://www.rottenaco...ctivityMap.html
no wonder they hate id laws

And when voter registration fraud occurs, of course that should be dealt with. Voter ID has nothing to do with that.

Per http://www.factcheck...rn-accusations/

Quote

Satterberg: [A] joint federal and state investigation has determined that this scheme was not intended to permit illegal voting.
Instead, the defendants cheated their employer. … It was hardly a sophisticated plan: The defendants simply realized that making up names was easier than actually canvassing the streets looking for unregistered voters. …

[It] appears that the employees of ACORN were not performing the work that they were being paid for, and to some extent, ACORN is a victim of employee theft.

Edited by process, 31 August 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[qultar]

two things
one do not trust the Justice department it is any thing but
and two voter fraud dose happen

[Elsydeon]

Affirmative Action: It is racist and incites racism. We give a person substantial advantages simply because of their race and/or gender. This in and of itself is racist, but is also incites racism since it implies that the people who receive it are inferior and therefore need assistance. This would then propagate towards those who know they would benefit from such not working as hard toward an education and such since they know they would not require such to compete simply because they can exploit the system. It also disenfranchises those whom do not receive it, making them an effective minority both in terms of benefits and sentiment due to the fact they are now forced to compete with people who are artificially boosted.

Gas Prices: This is entirely Obama's fault. Obama has done everything in his power to restrict domestic energy production. He has barred offshore drilling (Deepwater Horizon was very conveniently timed, as he started hating on offshore drilling right when it happened) and fracking (recovery of oil by pumping steam into the ground). The use of ethanol (of which, mostly comes from ADM, one of his donors) in gas not only makes fuel prices more volatile due to crop harvests affecting prices in addition to oil prices. The CAFE laws are foolish since they have done nothing but increase fuel usage, partly by making new cars too expensive, forcing people to drive older vehicles in worse mechanical shape for longer and by forcing car companies to cheat to meet customer needs (CAFE legislated station wagons out of existance, so SUVs were born).

Healthcare: Universal healthcare sounds great, but the implementation is bad. The lack of an upfront cost lends the people to use far more services than needed, clogging the emergency rooms with people who do not need care or whom flagrantly complicate their care (do not take their meds, drug addicts, etc.). The abuse of taxing authority for this means it can be used to force Americans to purchase any good or service the government demands (buy a new Chevy or we will tax you twice as much as it cost). Lastly, the lack of any tort reform (lawyers were his #1 donor group) means malpractice suits will continue to increase, meaning more malpractice insurance, meaning higher prices as costs are passed on to consumers, and higher insurance premiums.

LGBT Rights: Obama has pretty much done nothing, despite claiming to do much. He did not repeal "don't ask, don't tell" nor could he since he does not control the formation and regulations behind our military, that was an act of Congress. His own home state defines marriage as between a man and a woman no less than three times. The constitutional solution (the 1st amendment states that the state shall not encourage or interfere with religion and the 14th gives everyone equal protection) would be to eliminate marriage as a legal union, instead performing civil unions, and allowing marriages to be performed (but not legally binding) by clergy (however, they may also perform a legal ceremony).

National Security: Obama has prosecuted an illegal war in Lebanon and is talking about doing the same with Syria, whom has WMDs (from Iraq's WMD program that liberals said did not exist) and the ability to bring them to US soil (it is really easy to bring biological weapons, hidden in small items, and chemical weapons can be delivered in a number of ways). Neither of there wars was to protect America or allied nations as they were civil wars. The leaking of *********'s death and of the origins of Stuxnet were done to promote his image, thus indicating they were done either by an overzealous supporter who prizes Obama over America or by Obama himself for re-election advertising.

Economy: The stimulus only stimulated pet projects and donors, not the American economy. Cash for Clunkers destroyed the secondary vehicle market, made the economy worse off by adding more consumer debt, reducing the funds people have for other expenses, and harmed the auto industry by reducing the demand for new vehicles in latter years, since everyone who wants one has a new car, and with vehicles that had to be repossessed due to inability or unwillingness to make payments (which affected people's ability to find employment, as many employers do not wish to hire people using public transportation as it is seen as unreliable). The unwillingness to lower taxes on employers is stifling job creation, since the money that would go into improved and expanded facilities and employees is being sent to the government. The complete antagonism against social security and medicare reform will keep both systems at the peak of inefficiency, wasting billions of taxpayer funds into a flawed retirement system that pays very little compared to an IRA or 401k, and a bureaucratic and draconian mockery of a health insurance system that pays next to nothing and does not fully cover the health needs of people (especially seniors) while confusing them with thousands of pages of arcane regulations. The use of corn-based ethanol in fuel (and maintenance of tariffs against cheaper ethanol derived from Brazilian sugar cane) has raised food prices, again, harming the economy.

In short, Obama is the worst leader this country has ever had.

[process]

Elsydeon, on 31 August 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Affirmative Action: It is racist and incites racism. We give a person substantial advantages simply because of their race and/or gender. This in and of itself is racist, but is also incites racism since it implies that the people who receive it are inferior and therefore need assistance. This would then propagate towards those who know they would benefit from such not working as hard toward an education and such since they know they would not require such to compete simply because they can exploit the system. It also disenfranchises those whom do not receive it, making them an effective minority both in terms of benefits and sentiment due to the fact they are now forced to compete with people who are artificially boosted.

The intent is so provide a supplement to a group of people who have been historically, and to this day, disenfranchised. Ideally, yes, we shouldn't need it.

White males such as myself still have it much better. Take college enrollment, which correlates with higher incomes and better conditions of living, for instance: http://nces.ed.gov/f...splay.asp?id=98

Elsydeon, on 31 August 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Gas Prices: This is entirely Obama's fault. Obama has done everything in his power to restrict domestic energy production. He has barred offshore drilling (Deepwater Horizon was very conveniently timed, as he started hating on offshore drilling right when it happened) and fracking (recovery of oil by pumping steam into the ground). The use of ethanol (of which, mostly comes from ADM, one of his donors) in gas not only makes fuel prices more volatile due to crop harvests affecting prices in addition to oil prices. The CAFE laws are foolish since they have done nothing but increase fuel usage, partly by making new cars too expensive, forcing people to drive older vehicles in worse mechanical shape for longer and by forcing car companies to cheat to meet customer needs (CAFE legislated station wagons out of existance, so SUVs were born).

Gas prices are determined by global events. Read a few posts back. Domestic oil production is up and on the rise under this administration. The purpose of the CAFE regulation is to improve our the inefficiencies of our motor vehicles, so we can pay less for fuel and reduce foreign energy dependence. New technologies may be expensive now, but the idea is to invest in research so these technologies become more affordable when we'll need them.

Elsydeon, on 31 August 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Healthcare: Universal healthcare sounds great, but the implementation is bad. The lack of an upfront cost lends the people to use far more services than needed, clogging the emergency rooms with people who do not need care or whom flagrantly complicate their care (do not take their meds, drug addicts, etc.). The abuse of taxing authority for this means it can be used to force Americans to purchase any good or service the government demands (buy a new Chevy or we will tax you twice as much as it cost). Lastly, the lack of any tort reform (lawyers were his #1 donor group) means malpractice suits will continue to increase, meaning more malpractice insurance, meaning higher prices as costs are passed on to consumers, and higher insurance premiums.

No idea where you pulled that first part of speculation from.

The ACA effectively means that Americans have to pay for their own healthcare. If you're not paying, you're mooching off someone else, or screwing yourself with enormous medical bills, which when unpaid, hurts your service provider and the rest of our healthcare costs.

Elsydeon, on 31 August 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

LGBT Rights: Obama has pretty much done nothing, despite claiming to do much. He did not repeal "don't ask, don't tell" nor could he since he does not control the formation and regulations behind our military, that was an act of Congress. His own home state defines marriage as between a man and a woman no less than three times. The constitutional solution (the 1st amendment states that the state shall not encourage or interfere with religion and the 14th gives everyone equal protection) would be to eliminate marriage as a legal union, instead performing civil unions, and allowing marriages to be performed (but not legally binding) by clergy (however, they may also perform a legal ceremony).

Obama is the first president to openly support LGBT rights. He supports *** marriage, and he advocated for the repeal of DADT during the 2008 campaign. I agree with your solution, and I certainly wish he would campaign more fervently on these subjects, but the fact is his political opponents disagree with all of that.

Elsydeon, on 31 August 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

National Security: Obama has prosecuted an illegal war in Lebanon and is talking about doing the same with Syria, whom has WMDs (from Iraq's WMD program that liberals said did not exist) and the ability to bring them to US soil (it is really easy to bring biological weapons, hidden in small items, and chemical weapons can be delivered in a number of ways). Neither of there wars was to protect America or allied nations as they were civil wars. The leaking of *********'s death and of the origins of Stuxnet were done to promote his image, thus indicating they were done either by an overzealous supporter who prizes Obama over America or by Obama himself for re-election advertising.

There were no WMDs in Iraq. Some stockpiled yellowcake from before the first Gulf War. This should not be conflated with the false reports of yellowcake imports from N iger.

Elsydeon, on 31 August 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Economy: The stimulus only stimulated pet projects and donors, not the American economy. Cash for Clunkers destroyed the secondary vehicle market, made the economy worse off by adding more consumer debt, reducing the funds people have for other expenses, and harmed the auto industry by reducing the demand for new vehicles in latter years, since everyone who wants one has a new car, and with vehicles that had to be repossessed due to inability or unwillingness to make payments (which affected people's ability to find employment, as many employers do not wish to hire people using public transportation as it is seen as unreliable). The unwillingness to lower taxes on employers is stifling job creation, since the money that would go into improved and expanded facilities and employees is being sent to the government. The complete antagonism against social security and medicare reform will keep both systems at the peak of inefficiency, wasting billions of taxpayer funds into a flawed retirement system that pays very little compared to an IRA or 401k, and a bureaucratic and draconian mockery of a health insurance system that pays next to nothing and does not fully cover the health needs of people (especially seniors) while confusing them with thousands of pages of arcane regulations. The use of corn-based ethanol in fuel (and maintenance of tariffs against cheaper ethanol derived from Brazilian sugar cane) has raised food prices, again, harming the economy.

Your stimulus claim is demonstrably false: http://en.wikipedia....#Tax_incentives

The rest, citations needed.

Quote

In short, Obama is the worst leader this country has ever had.

I disagree.

Edited by process, 31 August 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[Brenden]

process, on 31 August 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

The intent is so provide a supplement to a group of people who have been historically, and to this day, disenfranchised. Ideally, yes, we shouldn't need it.

White males such as myself still have it much better. Take college enrollment, which correlates with higher incomes and better conditions of living, for instance: http://nces.ed.gov/f...splay.asp?id=98



Gas prices are determined by global events. Read a few posts back. Domestic oil production is up and on the rise under this administration. The purpose of the CAFE regulation is to improve our the inefficiencies of our motor vehicles, so we can pay less for fuel and reduce foreign energy dependence. New technologies may be expensive now, but the idea is to invest in research so these technologies become more affordable when we'll need them.



No idea where you pulled that first part of speculation from.

The ACA effectively means that Americans have to pay for their own healthcare. If you're not paying, you're mooching off someone else, or screwing yourself with enormous medical bills, which when unpaid, hurts your service provider and the rest of our healthcare costs.



Obama is the first president to openly support LGBT rights. He supports *** marriage, and he advocated for the repeal of DADT during the 2008 campaign. I agree with your solution, and I certainly wish he would campaign more fervently on these subjects, but the fact is his political opponents disagree with all of that.



There were no WMDs in Iraq. Some stockpiled yellowcake from before the first Gulf War. This should not be conflated with the false reports of yellowcake imports from N iger.



Your stimulus claim is demonstrably false: http://en.wikipedia....#Tax_incentives

The rest, citations needed.



I disagree.

...I like you already.

[MightyRando]

Oh, for the love of Mike, can we get the political **** off of this? I can solve all of this, Democrats and Republicans are playing the political game by saying the other party is playing the political game on not working for the people of the country. End of story. As you were.

[Skinflowers]

@Pht

You still havn't explained your statement,

Quote

Free markets and anarchy are mutually exclusive.

Your reply just gives a lazy (and wrong) one liner synopsis of anarchism and avoids answering my challenge to your statement.

Quote

What is the role of the free market in anarchism?

All modern, industrialized societies rely on markets for the exchange of ideas, goods, and services. The free market, with its voluntary exchange of ideas, goods, and services, is the only one that fits the anarchist model of a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups. While the free market is often associated with free market capitalism, it does not really endorse any economic system. The free market really is about the voluntary exchange of products, by whatever means the individuals agree on. For those still unconvinced about the value of a free market in implementing anarchism, the other option is an involuntary or forced exchange of ideas, goods, and services, which is the method of the state.

(emphasis mine)

From: http://www.strike-th...s/weebies4.html

More stuff: http://www.spartacus...SAanarchist.htm

Educate yourself and decide. Happy reading.

[SilentWolff]

Off with all their heads imo