45 replies to this topic

[Yeach]

MaddMaxx, on 31 January 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

And if that is the case then that is an issue. Far from moving things inwards, as the center area fills, it leaves only the arms, assuming the Legs are exempt, as they should be.

If a player does not like to put stuff on the arms, but has no choice, due to space restriction, they are left with but 2 choices.

Move the systems to the arms, or go without. I can't see that as a big drawback. Especailly given that, if allowed, most builders will leave the arms for such things as HS's, which in the last MechLab iterations, had no draw back when lost.

Change that, and you change the basic needs of a Mechs design, until all things added have to be accounted for and factored in to the over-all design scheme.

That is what the previous Mech Labs have lacked and what some have attempted to account for, set space units, but did so without the proper thought applied.

Confused by your post.
Are you in favour (or not) of the tendency of Mechwarrior games (incl MW4) for more favourable conditions for weapons in the the torso as oppose to the arms?
I hated MW2 and MW3 for the advantages of putting weapons in the torso 100 times? more favourable than putting weapons in the arms.

Edited by Yeach, 31 January 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Outlaw2]

Yeach, on 31 January 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Other notes specifically I wanted to address was armor.
In Mechcommander you could not add armor, the Jagermech was sometimes cheaper than the Catapult but it was also less armored.
Rifleman is described as "tissue-paper" rear armor. Should you be able to modify it to have more?
Jenner doesn't have max armor for its weight but a Wolfhound does. If you add armor to the Jenner is it still a Jenner?

edit: explain about weapons only and weapons and equipment.

I one of those that voted just Weapons and Equipment only. I think that armor, engine and internal structure are things that should be very limited in customization. Altering these stripes the personality of a mech. It makes balacing even more of a pain. Say you are a dev and want to create a mech that is slow and armored. You balance its stats with this in mind. It won't matter when the player simply turns it into an ultra fast glass cannon in the mechlab.

Internal structure should stays as is. (no custimization)
Armor level custimization greatly reduced from previous PC versions.
Engine changes should either not be allowed, or limited to just the next upgrade and/or downgrade.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 31 January 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

Yeach, on 31 January 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Confused by your post.
Are you in favour (or not) of the tendency of Mechwarrior games (incl MW4) for more favourable conditions for weapons in the the torso as oppose to the arms?
I hated MW2 and MW3 for the advantages of putting weapons in the torso 100 times? more favourable than putting weapons in the arms.

As I noted, I am in favor of a Balanced load being the default. The previous games made the loss of arms, due to armor limits, easily destroyed. As such any real weapons systems were moved to the more armored RT/CT/LT. The arms became places for HS's and or stuff when lost meant little to over-all combat effectiveness. MW4 tried to correct this phenomena by forcing weapons onto the arms by using that system. It failed as well.

We need to look at construction of a Mech in a more logical manner. Would you put only 2 shocks on a car? Why not. (as an example) or would you put oversized tires, one in the front and one in the back? Why not.

Yes a Mech is not a car but the design process is the same. Balance within the over-all structure assure best perfaormance ratings and what better place to have MAX performace than a BattleMech.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 31 January 2012 - 05:43 PM.

[Yeach]

MaddMaxx, on 31 January 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

As I noted, I am in favor of a Balanced load being the default. The previous games made the loss of arms, due to armor limits, easily destroyed. As such any real weapons systems were moved to the more armored RT/CT/LT. The arms became places for HS's and or stuff when lost meant little to over-all combat effectiveness. MW4 tried to correct this phenomena by forcing weapons onto the arms by using that system. It failed as well.

I wouldn't say MW4 failed. It actually did pretty good for forcing weapons in the arms.

[Morashtak]

After a semi-intensive forum search I found only a passing mention of Mech Magic Inc/Battle Magic - "The soon-to-be mercenary unit started as Mech Magic Inc., a BattleMech customization and refit shop on Outreach in 3047."

Could be a way to get a MechWarrior to part with his hard earned c-bills and still stay true to canon.

[Siphonaptera]

ZRO Zimm, on 31 January 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think iconic areas, like the missile pod on a Thor/Madcat/Vulture/Catapault, should be kept for Missiles only, but generally I would feel that arms should be something that could ultimately be removed & replaced with a same mech-type arm, but which allowed different equipment.

Every rulebook created for Battletech lists alternate loadouts for locations, which full customization offers. In some cases, like the Catapult, there are canon variants that have zero missle pods including the CPLT-K2 which replaces the missile launchers with PPCs.

Basically, every possible layout and config fits right in with the theme of the game, and limiting layouts to iconic images of the mechs instead of the weapons loadout should be a personal choice. I commend you on your personal choice to restrain your own choices, but it should be left to the player.

The MWLL PPC Catapult looks pretty keen, and I was pleased despite my personal expectations being very low.

[FinnMcKool]

Well this is interesting cause i like freedom to make or change things , but somewhere someone mentions that in this time setting , before the clan invasion (that brought with it the OMNI Mech) there was little to no custom Mechs .



But what the heck, Are you planning your next mission? do you often come home tired and crankie ? After a hard days work of blowing things up , you need a good hot meal. Please consider McKools Cattle Raiders for your Dropship needs, not only will we pick you up in a hot Zone, but we will also provide everyone makeing it a free hot steak dinner. Finn; your designated driver always there for you, always sober.


remember its a cruel universe out there.

[MaddMaxx]

Yeach, on 31 January 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

I wouldn't say MW4 failed. It actually did pretty good for forcing weapons in the arms.

You favor arm based weapons in loadout's?

[The Paleo King]

I favor allowing any customization as long as it does not conflict with canon rules for mech types and slots (i.e. you can customize the armor, electronics and internals on battlemechs, but your weapons choices are limited by slot type - so no missiles on a Crab or a Marauder - and you can pick and choose all the weapons on omnimechs, but you are not allowed to change the armor, internals, or electronics.)

That said, I suggest that if we and up allowing clan affiliations and have trials within the clans, those should be done with stock mechs or at least canon alternate configurations. Generally clan warriors are not allowed to customize their mechs however they please, and even receiving the right to choose from alternate configs is usually reserved only for the best of the best. Also IS successor state militaries often just gave their soldiers stock mechs, not just anyone is given their pick of the best weapons and electronics systems, you usually have to be either a high-ranking officer or an exceptional pilot. Plus in canon battletech, many IS mech variants simply can not be customized, as they are purpose-built to house certain weapons.

If you are playing as a Merc Corps member or a Solaris jock, who gives a crap, customize away!

[Demon Stalker]

What would make the customization interesting is loot that is slightly different than stock in some way. The clan ER PPC is superior in damage, range, weight, and about everything else. But there is the possibility of variation within just IS tech standard PPCs.

The Tech Readouts support several manufacturers of different weapons, what if one PPC, for example, had slightly lower range for slightly more damage? Or another have a little more range? Or possibly be more heat efficient.

This model also allows for losttech or loot that makes a weapon superior, but only slightly so, over standard mod equipment.

Given the options above, I voted for Stock on non-factory worlds, and more customization on factory worlds. I don't think this topic is finished though....

[joemomma]

Here's my $0.02: I personally come from a MMO called EVE Online, you fly around in a space ship. I think it has some relevant insights for this situation.

Make stock mechs available to buy while you're not fighting on a planet. Also there should be official "upgrade packages" from the manufacturer to change the stock mechs into their cannon variants. These can be fitted while not in combat whit no drawbacks or risks other than time and money spent (since they're from the official factory and have been tested extensively).

Complete customization should be much more limited. Not really available during combat and exceedingly expensive when not in combat. I believe that it should have something to do with character rank. Nobody is going to waste time trying to extensively modify the mech of the fung (F***ing New Guy). Even for advanced ranks there should be some stiff penalties for "non stock" customization. I'm not sure what exactly to suggest here since obviously I don't know how the game is balanced. But it stands to reason that since mechs are so delicate and specialized any kind of customization should throw off the balance (make it slower/less maneuverable) or screw with the targeting system (increase shot spread) or overload the reactor (slower firing rate), or maybe all at once.

Here's the first lesson from EVE: "fitting skills". As your character gets more advanced he can cram more stuff into his ship. Likewise add in some ability to overcome the drawbacks of a customized mech.

Another lesson EVE did: make mechs condition persist between battles. If your arm gets blown off it stays off until you can put another arm on. Makes it a lot harder to customize when your great mech has the possibility of being lost forever after every fight. Maybe make it possible to register for some kind of "mech insurance" that pays you out about equal to the cost of the stock model if you lose it in combat. That way you don't get backed into a corner and can't buy another mech, but if you go crazy and buy the greatest equipment then you will lose a lot of money every time you go critical.

EDIT: I also greatly like the idea of different "brands" of equipment giving slightly different stats. The problem is that people will probably only buy one or two "best" kinds. Of course if the economy was completely player driven that wouldn't be a factor since prices would be set by demand, but an economy like that isn't going to happen in any game not specifically designed for it.

Edited by joemomma, 31 January 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

=Outlaw=, on 31 January 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

I one of those that voted just Weapons and Equipment only. I think that armor, engine and internal structure are things that should be very limited in customization. Altering these stripes the personality of a mech. It makes balacing even more of a pain. Say you are a dev and want to create a mech that is slow and armored. You balance its stats with this in mind. It won't matter when the player simply turns it into an ultra fast glass cannon in the mechlab.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about that; engine upgrades or downgrades only provide significant differences in the acceleration and maximum speed of smaller and lighter 'Mechs, which tend to be faster, anyway.
With the exception of Urbies and ProtoMechs.

Say, you could give a 100-ton Assault an Endo-Steel internal structure, strip it of its armor and replace its engine with the biggest and most potent one available, freeing up some 20 tons anyway, and you'd probably get just about 64-82km/h from it at maximum speed; while that is quite impressive for an Assault, it's still simply not comparable to the 200km/h or more which you could get out of a Light.

If that is still a concern, it should be sufficient to set a limit, specific and unique for each 'Mech or weight class, to the maximum size or weight of the engine; critical space, in other words.
I would fully support a system similar to TT for MW:O, with the simple addition of critical points.

[joemomma]

Maybe some player-conquerable planets can be "production centers" where advanced customization facilities exist and others can be "commerce hubs" that sell better equipment. Give us a reason to hold those planets.

[Zimm Kotare]

Siphonaptera, on 31 January 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Every rulebook created for Battletech lists alternate loadouts for locations, which full customization offers. In some cases, like the Catapult, there are canon variants that have zero missle pods including the CPLT-K2 which replaces the missile launchers with PPCs.

Well see, this is exactly what would make sense to me. You would make those missile pods interchangeable with other options. In all truth, I am 100% with you.

When I was suggesting that iconic brands should stay the same, that was referencing the fact that without the actual change to the model, a Catapault with 2 PPCs where it's missiles should be would appear quite odd! You use a stunning example because I would LOVE a PPC Catapault as described, with decent engines & jump jets I'd be happily running around like a loon all day!

[Steel Talon]

well, things like torso build in missileracks should be unchangable, only change ammo type
like revolver in the center of uziel

[Pinkamena Pie]

I'm still of the opinion that we should have a good deal of flexibility in altering our mechs (inc replacing lasers with missiles or even jump jets or armour), but that player installed items should be less efficient than the equivilent items that are built into a design.

The skill trees show things like the ability to disperse heat 10% faster, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it so that additional player-added heatsinks disperse heat 10% slower. (The original heatsinks of the design would still operate at full efficiency however)

[BarHaid]

Lorcan Lladd, on 31 January 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Oh, I wouldn't worry about that; engine upgrades or downgrades only provide significant differences in the acceleration and maximum speed of smaller and lighter 'Mechs, which tend to be faster, anyway.
With the exception of Urbies and ProtoMechs.

Say, you could give a 100-ton Assault an Endo-Steel internal structure, strip it of its armor and replace its engine with the biggest and most potent one available, freeing up some 20 tons anyway, and you'd probably get just about 64-82km/h from it at maximum speed; while that is quite impressive for an Assault, it's still simply not comparable to the 200km/h or more which you could get out of a Light.

If that is still a concern, it should be sufficient to set a limit, specific and unique for each 'Mech or weight class, to the maximum size or weight of the engine; critical space, in other words.
I would fully support a system similar to TT for MW:O, with the simple addition of critical points.

Don't forget that all the weight-saving technology takes up space in your mech.Your super fast Assault has a name: Charger.

Truthfully, if they hold to (don't say it!) TT rules of construction, then you will have three design choices:

Speed; Armor; Weapons

Choose two.

[Pht]

ZRO Zimm, on 31 January 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Personally, I always felt there was a middle ground to be found between MW4 & MW3. I loved the freedom of MW3, but always tried to stick to only sticking missiles in missile pods, rather than going a bit crazy. Most of the time I just left missiles out entirely!

ZZ, you might be interested in this.

Yeach, on 31 January 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

Normally I would agree with you but since BattleMechs were made without thought on balances to begin with (I am sure someone can provide a BattleMech with such as such more tonnage on one side than the other; thinking Victor atm but not sure) , I would say that the gyro can compensate for all these differences in tonnages. It is set for it.

Actually, building a mech "off balance" is not really much of an issue, I suspect. They are probably programmed to handle their weight distribution via the gyroscope, myomer tension, and stance... but this is just an educated guess. I have seen no canon sources that say as much. At the least, you'd think that non-omnimechs would have to maybe be reprogrammed? ... who knows.

In actual game terms, the idea of using balance as a mechlab factor gets horribly complex very quickly, and would seem to make a mechlab and in game behavior counter-intuitive.

It's a wonderful idea; I toyed with it myself, but I don't see how it's conceptually possible.

Oh, and yeach ... jumpjets blow and suck! Normally they intake atmosphere, convert it to plasma, and channel it out in a controlled manner.

Morashtak, on 31 January 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

After a semi-intensive forum search I found only a passing mention of Mech Magic Inc/Battle Magic - "The soon-to-be mercenary unit started as Mech Magic Inc., a BattleMech customization and refit shop on Outreach in 3047."

Could be a way to get a MechWarrior to part with his hard earned c-bills and still stay true to canon.

I wonder if we will ever get access to the 'Mech wizards of solaris 7...

Siphonaptera, on 31 January 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

... I commend you on your personal choice to restrain your own choices, but it should be left to the player.

it's less of an issue about what's possible to the few and the fringe of the BT lore or in the source books than it is about game play considerations ... mechs being MW3 style walking gunbags is boring and does harm to the idea of 'Mechs being unique.

[Rayge]

very interesting poll set.

[Kael Tropheus]

I voted stock for all. IS mechs are not clan mechs. Equipment and especially weapons are not changable without a massive overhaul and would then be subject to glitches. Look at the old refernce book for Snord's Irregulars, half their mechs were modded but had negatives due to this.


If mech modifcation is in game, then it need to be minor and extremely expensive.

In finishing Clan mechs can do it easily, its what they were designed from the ground up to do. For IS mechs it needs to almost be cheaper just to buy a new mech chassis you do like. No need to screw with canon mechs and their gear.