202 replies to this topic

[Jeager51]

Why build a human shaped giant robot and not give it hands? That said a few of my favorite mechs have no hands, but I do see a need for them. Utility, in both logistics (engineering support without seperate vehicles, carrying extra suplies to caches ect.) and tactics ( Yes I mean punching. Oh noes.).

[Paladin1]

Anemic arms? Since when? Are you even aware of how powerful myomers are in this game? Even a 20 ton `Mech can pick up a 2 ton object without strain. That 100 ton Atlas? He just hit you with a 10 ton punch, literally.

Anemic my ***.

[Jack Gallows]

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Anemic arms? Since when? Are you even aware of how powerful myomers are in this game? Even a 20 ton `Mech can pick up a 2 ton object without strain. That 100 ton Atlas? He just hit you with a 10 ton punch, literally.

Anemic my ***.

Might be incredibly silly, but I've always wanted to be able to chuck Urbanmechs at people with an Atlas. Physical attack, AC hit, and gets the Urbanmech in distance a lot faster. Plus, probably knocking over the 'mech you threw it at, win!

[Alex Wolfe]

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Anemic arms? Since when? Are you even aware of how powerful myomers are in this game? Even a 20 ton `Mech can pick up a 2 ton object without strain. That 100 ton Atlas? He just hit you with a 10 ton punch, literally.

Anemic my ***.

You know that there's a world of difference between explosive power meaning to cause damage and deliberate, slow use of power to lift something?

It's not about how much the arm weighs, but about how fast it can be moved, in this context torso twist speeds and ranges (a punch's strength comes from hips). You think any hypothetical superfat dude can throw a good kick?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Paladin1]

Who said this was a slow, power lift? You're making this into something that it's not. What works for a human (power lifting) is unnecessary for a machine due to how the `Mech is designed. Either it can lift something or it can't, power lifting won't matter.

[Alex Wolfe]

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Who said this was a slow, power lift? You're making this into something that it's not. What works for a human (power lifting) is unnecessary for a machine due to how the `Mech is designed. Either it can lift something or it can't, power lifting won't matter.

Ugh.

You need power to lift. Lifting can be as slow or as fast as you want, the end result is the same. A punch has to be fast, or it's just a push. That was the whole point. I'm hazarding a guess that mechs, despite their lift capabilities, with movement speeds shown in media so far would be mostly incapable of moving their upper limbs with speeds sufficient to constitute a punch. Not DFA, not ramming, not lifting that's the issue here, punching. No can do.

Am I being more clear now?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Omigir]

really, six pages? is this worth it?

[Zanga]

Paul Inouye, on 31 January 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

"LOSE THE FISTS!!!"

No... and in fact.. just for that...

Spoiler

All BattleMechs will now have capes and laser swords. Way to go.. and it's allllll your fault!

Paul, it seems that pro spoilers are becoming your trademark. That and hilarious troll posts. I agree with you though...NEEDS MOAR STAR WARS!!!

[Slyck]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

I still can't quite wrap my hand around the whole punching thing. Human punching works because it's hard tissue meeting soft tissue at speeds, so while the same amount of energy is delivered to both, the soft tissue gives way (and that's why you'll hurt your hand if you punch an area of hard tissue, like the forehead, even if it's you initiating the attack). Mechs are all (barring a cockpit hit, which in turn is unlikely because of how sluggishly it was established they move, a mech punch would be quite anemic for its size, considering their torso twist speeds) armored, hard matter. It's like hitting a brick wall with a brick, except that your brick is thinner (mech "fingers" vs. armor plating).

I would hold that this bit is wrong. Battletech armor is described as very hard, light and FRAGILE composite material. It's meant to ablate under the high energy attacks of modern weapons and prevent penetration, but is also known to shatter on its own if a mech moves or twists in an awkward manner. This kind of material would be pretty useless for manipulators so I would have to assume the hands (and feet) are made out of a material more like the mechs skeleton, aluminum and titanium alloys; hard, heavy and malleable.

This would mean that a melee attack with the hand or foot would be quite likely to do more significant damage to the target then the attacker.

Edited by Slyck, 01 February 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Ugh.

You need power to lift. Lifting can be as slow or as fast as you want, the end result is the same. A punch has to be fast, or it's just a push. That was the whole point. I'm hazarding a guess that mechs, despite their lift capabilities, with movement speeds shown in media so far would be mostly incapable of moving their upper limbs with speeds sufficient to constitute a punch. Not DFA, not ramming, not lifting that's the issue here, punching. No can do.

Am I being more clear now?

With how fast they can move their legs, and accurately, it's more of an aim thing and how well constructed a 'mech chassis would be to deliver a punch. Legs generally don;t have weapons or anything else in them, and are free to be designed how they need to to move and run/etc. Running/walking is required, punching isn't really, so they aren't designed solely for that purpose, but something added to help facilitate more uses.

A battlemech punch is probably pretty fast when it comes to moving a piece of metal that quickly, and there's also a reason they don't do more damage then something like an AC/10. It's also why it's not a common move compared to taking things down with weapons, but it doesn't invalidate it's usefulfness or make fists on a 'mech pointless.

[Paladin1]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Ugh.

You need power to lift. Lifting can be as slow or as fast as you want, the end result is the same. A punch has to be fast, or it's just a push. That was the whole point. I'm hazarding a guess that mechs, despite their lift capabilities, with movement speeds shown in media so far would be mostly incapable of moving their upper limbs with speeds sufficient to constitute a punch. Not DFA, not ramming, not lifting that's the issue here, punching. No can do.

Am I being more clear now?

No, you're still missing the point. If a `Mech can move it's legs fast enough to propel itself at the speeds shown in canon (remember, attached at the hip), then it can propel it's arms fast enough to enable a punch, even if that punch is using the waist to increase the momentum. Sure, an Atlas can only top out at around 15 meters per second, but that's 15 meters per second of 100 tons of pain. That's not slow and it's really not something that I want to get punched by.

[Barantor]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Ugh.

You need power to lift. Lifting can be as slow or as fast as you want, the end result is the same. A punch has to be fast, or it's just a push. That was the whole point. I'm hazarding a guess that mechs, despite their lift capabilities, with movement speeds shown in media so far would be mostly incapable of moving their upper limbs with speeds sufficient to constitute a punch. Not DFA, not ramming, not lifting that's the issue here, punching. No can do.

Am I being more clear now?

A locust can run how fast and you are worried about a punch speed? The legs and the arms are powered by myonmer so don't think about slow hydrolic style movement, rather think about electronic muscles since that is what myonmer is.

I think punches could be effective, but it would be very situational. The illustration showing the atlas bending the enemies gun barrel away might be a better use.

I don't think fists hurt anything and hope they put in all the melee content and mechs that make BT unique.

[Alex Wolfe]

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

No, you're still missing the point. If a `Mech can move it's legs fast enough to propel itself at the speeds shown in canon (remember, attached at the hip), then it can propel it's arms fast enough to enable a punch, even if that punch is using the waist to increase the momentum. Sure, an Atlas can only top out at around 15 meters per second, but that's 15 meters per second of 100 tons of pain.

The "hips" in this case mean the "torso twist" part. Yes, the slow "whiiiiiirrr whiiiiiir" one from games. That's for a stationary punch.

And if you're mentioning such speeds... then yes, but if you're charging into someone like this, then it's ramming (which I have no objections toward), fist-first, not punching. All is good then.

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

That's not slow and it's really not something that I want to get punched by.

You mean pushed by .

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Paladin1]

That's it, I'm breaking out the physics.

Even without calculating the fact that it's a rotating object, you're dealing with 1,125 tons of kinetic energy in one punch. That's just ONE punch. That Atlas picture where he's punching the Warhawk isn't looking so improbable now, is it?

[Alex Wolfe]

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

That's it, I'm breaking out the physics.

Even without calculating the fact that it's a rotating object, you're dealing with 1,125 tons of kinetic energy in one punch. That's just ONE punch. That Atlas picture where he's punching the Warhawk isn't looking so improbable now, is it?

Some... interesting... physics, seeing as the unit for measuring kinetic energy is joules, not "tons" .

Not that I don't believe you, but any chance of seeing the actual calculations? I suck at physics, besides practical applications.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Omigir]

I want to take my Annihilator and stick its arms out straight and just spin using its 360 degree torso twist like a slow moving turnstile of death!

[Paladin1]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Some... interesting... physics, seeing as the unit for measuring kinetic energy is joules, not "tons" .

Not that I don't believe you, but any chance of seeing the actual calculations? I suck at physics, besides practical applications.

Okay, you got me. I went a little fast on that post but here's the actual calculations.

The kinetic energy for a non-rotating object of mass m (10 tons per arm) traveling at a speed v (15 meters per second) is 1/2 mv².

If you punch the numbers in, you'll find that you're dealing with a serious amount of force.

[Elizander]

Kommunist Kodiak, on 31 January 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

If they add fists to any other mech they need to lose em. Fists are for Transformers, Not Frickin mechs

I think the most appropriate response that I could give to this argument is:

no U!

Kommunist Kodiak, on 31 January 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

God, I hope not

Once we remove all the mech hands and add wheels then we can all play... World of Tanks.

[Aym]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

"All that canon is not gold" . Midichlorians are technically canon, too.

they're more like ponderous, walking tanks, and tanks don't ram each other - for good reason.

IIRC during the Battle of Kursk red army tanks did in fact "ram" German tanks to get on top of them and effectively take them out of the battle.

[Alex Wolfe]

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Okay, you got me. I went a little fast on that post but here's the actual calculations.

The kinetic energy for a non-rotating object of mass m (10 tons per arm) traveling at a speed v (15 meters per second) is 1/2 mv².

If you punch the numbers in, you'll find that you're dealing with a serious amount of force.

But 15/s is still ramming (Atlas is running, not actually swinging), and you'd need to take more mass there (as it's the entire mass of the Atlas, however some of it is directed into the ground, it's not full 100 tons hitting). The fist would serve as the surface area of the hit, so the area where the force is applied.

For an actual punch you'd need the Atlas swing speed (60 degrees/second, was it?), the mass of more than the arm again (the point of a good punch is to put the "body" behind it), but then again some of it is dissipated into the ground.

In short, it's complicated and I wouldn't be caught dead trying to calculate it. My estimate: a lot, but barring a huge weight difference, the other guy's armor and gyro will hold.