202 replies to this topic

[Alex Wolfe]

Aym, on 01 February 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

IIRC during the Battle of Kursk red army tanks did in fact "ram" German tanks to get on top of them and effectively take them out of the battle.

Like two posts below what you're quoting I think I did mention that as a desperate tactics it's plausible, but unlikely as the main mode of attack, which is what some people are postulating for mechs. Thanks, though!

[Neovenator]

Let's all take a step back and realize it's a game. The TT rules were made to be fun and give you a sense of piloting a giant powerful robot, I don't think realism is a word you can use when talking about myomer muscles, neurohelmuts, and 'jumping' between planets.

That said people have come to the battletech universe from different backgrounds: the TT game, novels and the Mechwarrior and MechCommander computer games. Those who first encountered the game via MW and MC probably have a different idea of what mechs can do than those who have just read the novels.

I have started rereading the novels and was a bit suprised myself at how maneuverable and fluid the description of mech combat was, it is nothing like walking tanks, there are descriptions of dives and combat rolls to avoid attacks and physical attacks play a large roll in both the novels and TT game. Just because a computer game has not been able (to date) to fully simulate the novels or TT game does not make them invalid.

If you don't like mechs with hands then don't pilot them, focus your fury and attack handed mechs first. Don't like melee attacks then don't use them pick a mech with gun arms and blaze away.

[Opus]

Paul Inouye, on 31 January 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

"LOSE THE FISTS!!!"

No... and in fact.. just for that...

Spoiler

All BattleMechs will now have capes and laser swords. Way to go.. and it's allllll your fault!

ROFLMAO.. really...no really really.....

Can we at least select to show or not show our helms, and capes?

[GrimJim]

Most ppl got into the game originally for the giant stompy robots (it was called BattleDroids at first).

Take away the fists, take away an inherent sci-fi factor. Sure its not so "realistic" but WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GIANT STOMPY ROBOTS HERE!!!!!!

Jeez...

[Tyzh]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

The "hips" in this case mean the "torso twist" part. Yes, the slow "whiiiiiirrr whiiiiiir" one from games. That's for a stationary punch.

A mech has hips. The torso twist is different. If a mech really had to hold its arm out and torso twist at things, then melee would probably be as ineffective as you describe.

[Paladin1]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

But 15/s is still ramming (Atlas is running, not actually swinging), and you'd need to take more mass there (as it's the entire mass of the Atlas, however some of it is directed into the ground, it's not full 100 tons hitting). The fist would serve as the surface area of the hit, so the area where the force is applied.

For an actual punch you'd need the Atlas swing speed (60 degrees/second, was it?), the mass of more than the arm again (the point of a good punch is to put the "body" behind it), but then again some of it is dissipated into the ground.

In short, it's complicated and I wouldn't be caught dead trying to calculate it. My estimate: a lot, but barring a huge weight difference, the other guy's armor and gyro will hold.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to get a full breakdown of power, just a ball-park idea and the 15m/s came from how fast an Atlas can move at full speed. Long story short, I still don't want to be punched by this thing, even if it's only got a sixty degree range of motion.

[Alex Wolfe]

Tyzh, on 01 February 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

A mech has hips. The torso twist is different. If a mech really had to hold its arm out and torso twist at things, then melee would probably be as ineffective as you describe.

That's my point. That's how a punch works. Arm and back muscles work while the torso twists at the waist, and the legs (hips) shift the weight. A mech "punching" as we understand it, would really have to hold its arm out (more accurately, move it around its own center of gravity) and torso twist at things, because that's what humans do, that's what is understood as "punching" (opposed to ramming). Try it!

Must be why they all have guns, huh.

[Paladin1]

Neovenator, on 01 February 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Let's all take a step back and realize it's a game.

Hey, that'll be enough outta you!

[Ryphus Trebo]

33 of the 55 mechs in the original 3025 TRO (Technical Read Outs, books ued for the table game, unseen ) have a hand or hands (I didn't count Lams since they are basically already represented).

8 of the 16 clan mechs in the TRO 3050 (unseen) have hands.

45 of the 79 designs from the Inner Sphere in the TRO 3050 have a hand or hands (unseen, again most of these designs are in the 3025, but I'm just trying to show how often hands get represented in the TRO's, not their overall numbers)

28 of the 38 I.S. designs in the TRO 3055 have a hand or hands (unseen), a lot of the ones who didn't have hands were created by the F.W.L. or it's companies, since the F.W.L. doesn't really fight Elements, I'm sure there is no relation.

10 of the 21 clan mechs in the TRO 3055 have a hand or hands.

11 of the 37 I.S. mechs in the TRO 3058 have a hand or hands.

6 of the 18 Clan mechs in the TRO 3058 have a hand or hands.

10 of the 30 I.S. mechs in the TRO 3067 have a hand or hands.

9 of the 15 Clan mechs in the TRO 3067 have a hand or hands.

A lot of this data is pointless, as what a mech looked like is HEAVILY influenced by the artist. PLOG is basically the artist for all clan mechs in teh TRO 3067. However I noticed a few things. The earlier the TRO's were, the more heavily hands were used on mechs. As the clan war dragged on, hands started to be less represented.
I noticed not many light mechs have hands. Which makes sense, light mechs are used for scouting, a light mech that has to punch is already screwed basically. You seem them in higher numbers approaching medium weight classes. Which makes sense, mediums have to be versatile and handle multiple things. heavies were a mixed bag, and Assault mechs seemed to vary a lot as well. Some of the more iconic mechs have hands, Atlas, Archer, Thunderbolt, designs that were intended to be brawlers had to have them. Sniper mechs, like the Thunderhawk or Warhawk (or any other mech) hands are not as useful.
As for getting rid of hands, ultimately it might make sense in the game beacuse there are presumably no ways to USE them. But for asthetic purposes, a lot of older die hard players would be turned off by removing the hands, just to remove the hands. It doesn't hurt you to have hands in the game simply because a bipedal design reminds someone of G-fighter. It would hurt to take some core elements of a game with a LOT of history, and change some core ideals, just because someone is scared someone will think they watch the Transformers movie. Battletech is and has always been a tactical game. Why would someone be worried about it being cartoony now? Dark Age already failed. The nay sayers were proven right. An Atlas having a hand it can't punch you with will not hurt your game. Seeing an Atlas completely redesigned without hands and spikey shoulder bits, that will hurt my game.

My end point, hands tend to be anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the mechs in the TRO's. I think an about equal comparison the game would be just fine. Feel free to flame me if you disagree.

[Paladin1]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

That's my point. That's how a punch works. Arm and back muscles work while the torso twists at the waist, and the legs (hips) shift the weight. A mech "punching" as we understand it, would really have to hold its arm out (more accurately, move it around its own center of gravity) and torso twist at things, because that's what humans do, that's what is understood as "punching" (opposed to ramming). Try it!

Must be why they all have guns, huh.

Actually, what you just described is a haymaker. What I've always seen, both in fiction as well as depicted in the art, is more of a short jab where the `Mech brings it's arm straight out with little or no movement at the waist.

[Ryphus Trebo]

I always imagined the desingers of the game using the term "punch" very loosely. As the mechs didn't have super fine articulate control, instead of imaginging a punch as you would punch a guy, imaging letting your arm go loose and swing it at something. Or maybe even a back hand swing. Sure it won't do much damage when you do it, but when your 15-20 ton arm gets that kind of momentum, armor buckles. Maybe I'm just a newb, but it made sense to me.

[Alex Wolfe]

Paladin1, on 01 February 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Actually, what you just described is a haymaker. What I've always seen, both in fiction as well as depicted in the art, is more of a short jab where the `Mech brings it's arm straight out with little or no movement at the waist.

Not necessarily a haymaker, a perfectly decent hook works that way as well. No hips, no power (and in this case it means "torso twist").

Anyway, I doubt I can be convinced either way, mech movement that I've seen (as opposed to "read about", paper is patient and will stomach any impossibility) still seems to slow for the purpose of breaching another's immense armor, so... nice chatting with you and stuff. Punching out.

[HanaYuriko]

[Paladin1]

Bah, you youngsters just don't have the stamina to slug it out any more. In my day, we'd go toe-to-toe for hours without a break. Then again, we had to wait hours for our 18 baud modems to download an email, so there's that.

[Punisher 1]

Ya, because there is no reason to grab things or grapple or climb or even possibly pull your mech up after losing a leg. Jamming dirt into those gun barrels is clearly a sound thing to do when you get knocked down or a leg shot out from under your mech.

I understand that hands might never be coded in for use but then I think if you only want gun mounts where the hands go, the guns are rendered useless if you get knocked down and have to prop yourself back up. After all you have to balance the weight of the mech on them.

[GrimJim]

Leave fists for the eventual addition of melee combat. Also speaking of role specific 'Mechs, it could also evolve that for some contracts, 'Mechs with hands are needed. Must transport an object, raid and make off with a piece of salvage, etc. That would be a cool twist that could help mix things up a bit.

I think some of the TT modules had this sort of thing & it was hella fun. You ended up having Warhammers and Riflemen giving cover for Wasps and Stingers. Ended up being like an inverted "bug hunt."

[Ryphus Trebo]

I think you'd take a lot of factors into account for what mechs you'd assign (if that's an option if your unit is doing that well). If you know the terrain is going to be wide open with little cover. You probably won't send your Hatchetman's in. Unless you had no other option. If it's a city though, well, your long range mech isn't as useful as it once was, and that Hatchetman you make fun of with it's jump jets and heavy club, is suddenly quite scarey. Will that get included in the game? Probably not, this is all probably moot, since the actual creation of melee damage in the tech set up is probably not in the budget.

[Dihm]

Ryphus Trebo, on 01 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

I always imagined the desingers of the game using the term "punch" very loosely. As the mechs didn't have super fine articulate control, instead of imaginging a punch as you would punch a guy, imaging letting your arm go loose and swing it at something. Or maybe even a back hand swing. Sure it won't do much damage when you do it, but when your 15-20 ton arm gets that kind of momentum, armor buckles. Maybe I'm just a newb, but it made sense to me.

There's also the old "club" method, employed by such creatures as gorrillas. An Atlas throwing two "punches" could really just be it lifting both hands up and smacking them downwards as hard as gravity and the myomers allow.

Aegis Kleais™, on 01 February 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Sorry, not that there WERE hands, I meant that the hands weren't used.

I'm less against a Mech having hands as long as there's no use of it. Of course that's all just my personal opinion.

Well... that's the whole point isn't it? Pro-hand people aren't expecting them to have gameplay functionality in MWO, we want them there because they SHOULD be there. Non-functional lumps is a-okay with me.

Edited by Dihm, 01 February 2012 - 11:15 AM.

[Tyzh]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

That's my point. That's how a punch works. Arm and back muscles work while the torso twists at the waist, and the legs (hips) shift the weight. A mech "punching" as we understand it, would really have to hold its arm out (more accurately, move it around its own center of gravity) and torso twist at things, because that's what humans do, that's what is understood as "punching" (opposed to ramming). Try it!

Must be why they all have guns, huh.

I'm sorry, I probably didn't use enough words. I intended to point out a mech doesn't need its torso twist to punch something. In fact, neither do I. I just did it. I walked over to my wall, and punched it as hard as I could using only my arm. And it hurt. That is significant enough force for a mech to engage another in melee. Just ask my hand.

Edited by Tyzh, 01 February 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[Ryphus Trebo]

Can someone do a photo shop of the Atlas punching and saying "Just ask my hand."?