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On Community Warfare (long post)


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#41 Kyrie

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:53 AM

[RESERVED: Index to Community Warfare Posts -- attempt to provide cross-referencing for key discussions as I have identified them]

First and foremost, this is the devblog for Community Warfare, located here.

A thread here indexing some key developer posts on the forums that shed significant light on what is known about the focus of Community Warfare to date. Thanks to Morashtak for compiling the links!

There are two large threads threads focused on Community Warfare in the General Discussion Forum:

PringlesPCant's massive thread advocating an implementation for Merc Corp's based loosely on the way Wargaming implemented Clan Wars in World of Tanks with several key changes proposed located here. My first post in this very long thread objecting to the general concept of pre-arranged battle zones is here with a rough description of the way it worked in EGA; in my second post I attempt to object to one of the assumptions of the entire Community Warfare mechanic, the separation of Mercs and Factions, located here. A followup post defending unified space for mercs and factions is here. And lastly I posted this in that thread to recap how EGA/3025 handled House to House wars. Summarizing: I object to any form of WoT Clan Wars on the grounds explained in those posts. :-)

This thread by Kyrie proposing an approach based more on MPBT (EGA) and MPBT: 3025 with changes designed to appeal more to an F2P crowd located here.

There is another thread located in Suggestions by WardenWolf proposing a system more in line with what is stated (at the moment) in the community warfare devblog, this thread is located here. Within that thread I attempt to debunk the idea that Factions must be implemented "loosely" for the sake of casual players. I explain in greater detail how it worked in a very difficult environment (EGA with high hourly access costs), located here; and a sort of summary of the threads discussing CW is here.

Found this interesting discussion in Suggestions, proposed by CocoaJin, outlining the idea of a Big Planet strategic layer for combat located here.

Found this interesting post located here that describes a possible merc planetary capture implementation by Aidan Kerensky.

And this is the original MPBT: 3025 design thread by Shadowstarr located here.
This is one of the most complete and fascinating threads to date; it outlines what appears to be a complete design document for the MPBT: 3025 project that died at the hands of EA. Given the precision and complexity of what is proposed there, lots of things would have to be changed to make it legally viable for this game. However, my concern is to get at the core of the concepts presented and abstract them into this game if at all possible.

EDIT LOG: Updated as of 8/31/2012 with new posts as I discover them. :-)

Edited by Kyrie, 31 August 2012 - 04:44 AM.


#42 Tardstrong

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:31 AM

My brain is scared of your brain. You put a lot of thought to good use!
Forgive me if my thoughts have been brought up. I think that this may not work for all players in a F2P game and maybe starting out as a league of like minded people would be a way to start. Many people will just want to jump in game, alone or with friends, and release stress for a while. However an entire group wanting this can make it work.
The command structure and/or government could possibly evolve to out of game, MWO, players.
I was thinking of out of game players because it would be interesting to see how differing government systems would work against and for each other. Would mech pilots follow rules that a civilian government drew up? How would people deal with uprising by civilians or military? Also all the political bs that would pop up in elections and negotiations.
What about having planetary production units? For example my planet on a borderworld produces 3 units and I use all production to keep 3 house companies ready but provide nothing to the House or Faction I belong to. Then I adjust it down to 2 units and give up one production unit to the House/Faction. The government can then use these to supply other planets with House troops or Mercs?
Again I apologize if I'm bringing up old ideas...

#43 Kyrie

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 01:47 PM

@Tardstrong,

Thanks :-). Mostly I obsess too much over CW while waiting to see how the game develops. Can't wait for Open Beta and seeing more of the game!

The general vision I have of the "government" is that it could be a passive NPC controlled by the DEVs. That being said, I am in favor of proposing a fairly strong chain of command system for the House military side of the "overall" faction. The degree of military-side control of civilian government can be quite a bit different depending on the particular House. For example, in House Kurita there is a very strong military overlay of "civilian" government. In essence the military is the government; whereas perhaps House Marik this would have quite a different flavor.

So to continue with House Kurita as an example, we may have an NPC official "leader", at the moment in the timeline I believe it is Takashi Kurita. However, in terms of player participation we could have the highest position in the House military be Takashi Kurita's "chief of staff", followed by the Warlords of the Military Districts (I think we lost the Rasalhague district in this timeline to the FRR?) so we'd have Benjamin MD, Galedon MD, Pesht MD, Dieron MD and maybe whatever replaced the FRR. Not actually current on this timeline, my background is more 3025ish.)

[EDIT: Some research online allowed me to discover that the 5th Military district in 3049+ is the Alshain Military District, and that one is gonna get pummeled hard by the Clan Invasion, "Ouch."]

Similarly for each faction we could have an NPC "head of government", and then a player leader as the military chief of staff and so on.

My focus has been almost exclusively with dealing with purely military matters in these posts to date, I haven't really considered an overall economy. My priority, if you will, is to make the case that we first need player-run chain of commands for the Factions. So the basic idea I proposed to flesh out the logic of the chain of command is the House Budget system, which is really an abstraction of an overall economy. I've tried to keep it simple, over-simplified really. That is, control of a given planet automatically generates X amount of supply credits that flow into two different pools: an overall House Budget for the miliitary, and individual pools for the actual units that took part in securing control of that planet. The "individual bonuses" of this system would be credited to the mercs and military units that took part in the combat that secured control of that planet.

However, we can add quite a bit more depth to the system; but its less than clear to me how far PGI really wants to go on the economic side.

Edited by Kyrie, 31 August 2012 - 05:16 AM.


#44 ReXspec

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostKyrie, on 22 August 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

It occurs to me that I have not really explained why I think implementing a system such as this one or the MPBT: 3025 system would be a good idea for PGI. I posted the basic rational here. Since the discussion on CW is being split in different areas, I want to keep links going to key ideas throughout.

In summary (TL;DR;Didn't click on link) : Creating more opportunities for player immersion will enhance opportunities for "conversions" (getting players to pay for something; anything at all). More income for PGI is something I feel will be a Very Good Thing. :-)


So, you do agree that something like the OP's system should be implemented. Basically what you said in both threads are spot on to what I believe. The only thing that I differ in is that maybe they can find a point in the Battletech Universe timeline where the story is undeveloped. So that players could help in creating the canon by playing the game as opposed to being bound by canonical events?

Although that system would be questionable... if not difficult to implement possibly. I see much potential for a lot of meta-game storyboarding to go on... lol

#45 Kyrie

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:32 PM

Not sure what is OP in this context though. My head is spinning from all the threads I've tried to index.

My view is that I really want MPBT: 3025 implemented in this game. I feel that this will never happen.

I am doing two things I guess. Supporting the MPBT: 3025 vision, adding mercs and perhaps modifying a bit how the chain of command would work However, before getting into the details of the implementation, my concern is to get the fundamentals worked out.

The fundamental concerns:

-That CW will have a unified battle space (no World of Tanks clan wars for mercs only)
-That factions will not be implemented in an abstract and "loose" way
-That factions will have some form of a workable chain of command to organize battles and overall campaigns
-That the unified battle space have sufficient depth to be strategically interesting.

Once we can agree on the fundamentals, the rest is ironing out the details...

Edited by Kyrie, 31 August 2012 - 08:49 AM.


#46 Rhyshaelkan

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 10:22 PM

Once the devs tell us what they are going to do, then we can figure out a way to break it worry about what to do. As much as they have said. It is just not enough.

#47 Kyrie

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:06 PM

Agreed, Rhyshaelkan. :-)

Mainly I'm agitating to get an idea of what the devs have in mind, and also sounding out what the community thinks.

#48 Kyrie

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:50 AM

Updated the index of Community Warfare posts that I've been working on with a new thread started by Aidan Kerensky, general bump to this thread for shamless self-promotion. :-)

#49 Steel Talon

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 05:14 AM

Main point is to allow everyone to affect "global war" more or less
Good example: Planetside 1/2
Bad example: WoT

Edited by Steel Talon, 31 August 2012 - 05:14 AM.


#50 Kyrie

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 05:19 AM

Not just that, IMHO, but allow for as much as depth as possible compatible with what the player's want. The IP behind this game creates a universe of potential to give weight and meaning to the whole gameplaying experience; I want to see as much as possible of that in this game. And I don't mean gameplay mechanics such as weapon values and heat dispersion but the lore behind the technicalities.

Taking that as a base for us to build our own stories. :-)

Edited by Kyrie, 31 August 2012 - 05:24 AM.


#51 Ray Gunn

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

I just wanted to jump in here and say I like the ideas presented and discussed here. It's nice to see that the community has such good and original ideas for what this game could be. Although it's hard to say just how good these ideas actually are until we see them tested, I would very much like to participate in any such tests and hope that at some point I will have the opportunity to.

I missed out on MPBT back in the 90's, and it sounds like the kind of game I really would have enjoyed. So yeah, this is the kind of thing I'd like to try out at some point. Here's hoping MWO takes such a path.

Edited by Ray Gunn, 31 August 2012 - 08:32 AM.


#52 Kyrie

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:53 AM

That is really great to hear Ray Gunn! Spread the word -- getting more player input into these threads is an important element in seeing the viability of these concepts. As Bryan Ekman stated, embarking on a project like this one is a significant challenge with risks of failure. A full-on implementation of Factions with a workable chain of command is a serious commitment in development. Striking the right balance would be the key.

#53 Ray Gunn

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 06:55 PM

I for one would jump at the chance to be involved in such a developed chain of command type of game. I am a member of Azure Twilight, which is a large coordinated Planetside outfit that uses that sort of thing quite well. I'm a fairly new member and I don't lead ops or anything like that but there's a really interesting experience in just following orders because you get to be a part of something really big and interesting. It's a hard concept to communicate to players who have never been a part of anything like that. The gaming industry has kinda spoiled players these days, and now most of your average gamers won't be interested in a game unless they get to be the hero or the commander or whatever. I think games like MWO and Planetside 2 could lead the way in bringing a new experience to gamers, showing them that there's value in experiencing a massive war from the point of view of a common soldier working his way up through the ranks. It's kind of like the "It's all about the Journey" trope. In reality, the war heroes and commanders have to work their way up to the top anyway, and the challenges they face in doing that are often overlooked or ignored but I think they can be interesting in a way that hasn't really been explored by the gaming industry yet.

#54 Spheroid

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 11:33 PM

I wonder if community warfare will coincide with some sort of time jump. The Chaos March circa 3057-3059 is taylor made for every faction fighting every other plus mercs on a scale much smaller than the 5th Succession War I truly crave but will never get.

#55 NessOnett

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:55 AM

I don't see why anyone would be against the basic concept behind this. Many other games have successfully pulled off a command structure system in an online game. And the best way to do it is to have people take charge like they did in the olden days, at the tip of a lance(pun intentended). Have skillfully play be the deciding factor, not grinding time or money spent.

The timeline issue is also easily dealt with, and I believe it was mentioned on the first page. Have alternate territory being fought over. In the sphere there are countless worlds to be conquered and recaptured, many of whom not previously mention and whose overall strategic value is not significant enough to change the predetermined outcome of the universe.

And of course, there will be those who could care less about the houses and the politics. And they can of course stick to th simple and carefree life of a merc. Going wherever the money takes them, as a lone wolf or in a small company. All these added features are optional. And like with any mercenaries, houses are always looking for new recruits and you could align yourself at any point in the future if you change your mind about where you stand and how involved you want to be.

I would however try to stay on the militaristic side of things. Having strictly clerical positions(like those mention in the supply section regarding allocation of resources) seems like a failing. It might be realistic, but I think it's too far removed from the core of this game, which is the objective based combat.The command decisions should be those based as much as possible on the battlefield(if anyone is familiar with MAG...).

(Sorry if that's restating some things that have been said already, but it's hard to follow everything in a thread like this)

#56 Kyrie

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 02:24 AM

View PostNessOnett, on 01 September 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

I don't see why anyone would be against the basic concept behind this. Many other games have successfully pulled off a command structure system in an online game. And the best way to do it is to have people take charge like they did in the olden days, at the tip of a lance(pun intentended). Have skillfully play be the deciding factor, not grinding time or money spent.

The timeline issue is also easily dealt with, and I believe it was mentioned on the first page. Have alternate territory being fought over. In the sphere there are countless worlds to be conquered and recaptured, many of whom not previously mention and whose overall strategic value is not significant enough to change the predetermined outcome of the universe.

And of course, there will be those who could care less about the houses and the politics. And they can of course stick to th simple and carefree life of a merc. Going wherever the money takes them, as a lone wolf or in a small company. All these added features are optional. And like with any mercenaries, houses are always looking for new recruits and you could align yourself at any point in the future if you change your mind about where you stand and how involved you want to be.

I would however try to stay on the militaristic side of things. Having strictly clerical positions(like those mention in the supply section regarding allocation of resources) seems like a failing. It might be realistic, but I think it's too far removed from the core of this game, which is the objective based combat.The command decisions should be those based as much as possible on the battlefield(if anyone is familiar with MAG...).

(Sorry if that's restating some things that have been said already, but it's hard to follow everything in a thread like this)


@Ness,

Thanks for posting your thoughts! The issue of "staff" positions is kind of an attempt to include the true BT-nerds who actually want to specialize in a given area without exercising "line" command. It parallels the tradition of modern present-day military traditions.There is an old quote...by Omar Bradley, that goes: "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics." On the other hand, depending on how the chain of command is implemented, there may be too few line-command positions to satisfy the demand.

To draw an example, in the MPBT:3025 thread (link is in the index post in this thread). the plan was to have a bit over 10k total slots in the TO&E of each House counting grunts, commanders and all per house, for a grand total of about 50K. If I am not mistaken we have nearly 50K founders (all types), and over 250K people registered on the forums (counting founders and non-founders together).

Granted, a fair portion will go merc, but a significant portion of just this pre-open Beta population may decide to go House. This doesn't even begin to consider the hordes expected to flow into the game on day 1 of Open Beta; many of which might start with a preference for going House.

Even assuming the devs want to implement a system like 3025, we would need to be able to scale it up on demand while still making sense. And this is the part that is concerning me at the moment. What we don't want to have is a situation where someone arrives at the game 2-4 months down the road after the introduction of CW and literally can't join a House for lack of slots and is then forced to go merc.

The limitation in the 3025 design is the canon-drawn TO&E listing how the military is organized. To an extent, the 3025 design tries to deal with this situation by offering the idea of "dynamic" formation and disbanding of House units and prefectures. What it doesn't do is offer the same at the District level since that would be a serious deviation from the canon. So unless you bring some serious canon-changing mechanics we will have problems of capacity accomodating people who simply want to play and on top of that those who want to pursue command positions.

I can imagine creating pools of "generic" House military units dynamically that are not a specific part of the canon but simply "blend in" to the background. Something like the "Sword of the Dragon" units in the EGA version. However, it becomes less clear to me if we can simply make up whole new Prefecture level positions on-demand without mutilating the heck out of the "canon". It is against this background that I began to see the necessity of creating "staff" positions at each level of the hierarchy to allow for an outlet for military character progression.

Defining these staff positions is a matter of further thought, but I think it will be necessary at some form if any kind of TO&E is implemented for Factions.

Edited by Kyrie, 01 September 2012 - 02:39 AM.


#57 Kyrie

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 02:50 AM

Following up on my previous post, some additional thoughts defining the essential problems:

-Initial pre-Open Beta population is projected at about 250K (registered forum users + founders). May me quite higher now.
-IF there is to be a deep implementation of House faction military TO&E it has to adhere to the spirit of the canon, but allow for essentially open-ended growth while making sense.
-The basic idea of MPBT 3025 would have to be abstracted, redefined, and implemented to allow for massive growth in game population.

In essence, we have to dive deep into the known canon of TO&E and find the right spots to do some surgery for this to make any kind of sense given the numbers of players we have interested in the game in the pre-beta stage, making some kind of reasonable projection of what we expect to see within 6 months of the introduction of House TO&E/CW.

This is a significant challenge. Off the top of my head, I don't see a sensible way of simply adding whole new Districts that are not in the canon. So the highest line command positions will, in my judgment, always be HL, HXO, and District level Commanders. That might be the first hard limitation we run into.

While awkward, it may be possible to create additional Prefecture level (PDZ for you Davion types!) positions on a dynamic basis as described in broad terms in the 3025 document. That is, once a prefecture is fully fleshed out with all lance positions filled, a new one is generated first off the Canon, then eventually some generic form "on demand". When its time to demob, first the non-canon ones are removed before touching the canon defined positions.

However, by implementing this form of open ended growth you are placing a very high burden on your senior commanders. This is one reason why staff level positions will be necessary to help in mobilizing and organizing military efforts.

Another way of doing this is to do the surgery one level lower, allowing for unlimited units within a prefecture; creating "sub prefecture" commanders to administer every three units. Regardless, staff command positions will be necessary to handle the player population.

Edited by Kyrie, 01 September 2012 - 02:56 AM.


#58 SolisCanis

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 03:44 AM

OP you got a lot of things in there I enjoy supplies & c-bill bonus ect for winning faction battles & a lot cool things to make it more like you've done something other then "go kill those guys & when your done go kill some more". But as someone that has served in the real Military it sucks the big one having someone dictate your every move when & where you go, what you use when your there, & how you use it. When my little crew in the Army played games it was to get away from the chain of command BS & relax (& because sometimes there wasn't anything to do while you wait for them to figure out what to do) so having another person have so much control over your "free time" would most likely be a turn off to those that live there lives that way.

A lot of what you outlined reminded me of an MMO called Kingdom Heroes, you had three "houses" no CoC to speak of from them you just chose what one you wanted & twice a week you had all out war for some 20+ cities/ports. Now you would get a daily "paycheck" that was dependent on how many of those your "house" controlled but if you were in one & your "guild" or in this case "unit &/or lance" was the one to take a city you got to set the tax rate & the guild bank would get that plus your paycheck got a little extra, and the only CoC was at the guild lvl that had rank like Lt., Capt. ect & you can choose the type of people you play with there. If some were hard core & you liked that go for it. If you were more like me & liked laid back folks good too if you wanted to play alone,they couldn't control how you play in any way if you didn't let them, The point is you should be able to play to your liking any time.
Also you could team up with other guilds during war & share a chat channel, so that was sweet.

#59 Kyrie

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 03:55 AM

@SolisCanis,

I'm kind of on the fence on how strong the Chain of Command needs to be. However, it will not be like the real military with micromanagement. On that I'm pretty clear -- it just wont work in the style of game I feel.

In essence, I want to have the command positions implemented in ways that offer rewards for following general directives without being able to FORCE anyone into a particular action.

In essence, the House Leader would have more moral authority than actual command authority. If he does his job well, perhaps by using tools like the "House Budget" outlined in my idea, he will be obeyed willingly. The District Commanders may have more tools available, but still be completely unable to micromanage. Similarly at the Prefecture level.

Once we get down to the Unit CO level that is where I feel will be the highest level of actual command authority; but even here there will be no way to actually force people to do anything; with Lance Leaders having a lot of discretion as well.

In terms of actually doing stuff, my idea is to make Unit CO/s and LLs have the most "power"; limited though it may be. Past this level its more about role-playing, organizing and exercising moral authority rather than sheer command power.

Defining the actual powers of each position has been attempted in previous posts, but its clearly wide open to change.

EDIT: Wanted to mention that in a previous post I suggested using a bottom-top method for selecting command personnel. What this means is that under my proposal, the actual unit members choose the Unit CO, the Unit CO chooses lance leaders in a regular two week cycle. This further emphasizes the fact that the high command wont be able to willy-nilly replace people to enforce its will.

Edited by Kyrie, 01 September 2012 - 04:24 AM.


#60 Mantiis

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:48 PM

Kyrie,

I had started developing a long post similar to yours that had a lot of the same concepts contained in it.

A main issue I have thought about is that many games could have benefited from better community systems to maintain interest but before the Free-to-Play (F2P) model, there was less incentive to keep the players connected to the game once they paid up front. Now that the F2P model is more established, studios would stand to gain much more from people immersing themselves in games and wanting to spend money to improve their experience.

F2P follows the same model as life itself. What a studio is doing is saying “Look, you can live in our universe instead of reality, but you are going to be limited to what you can do, just like real life.” F2P spans the boundary between games and real life. You work and gain money in real life and then rather than buy a pair of shoes, you might buy your in game character some clothes or upgrades instead.

But so many games are no fun to “live in.” Generally, there is an "action" or "game time" portion of a game and then a more leisurely time where one would work on their character stats, items, configurations, etc. In MWO we have the menus before drop. Obviously they already intend to have factions play a part in the factions menu which has yet to be implemented but I hate to see games where the only incentive to spend money or to stay connected to the game is just new titles, new skins, and tournaments.

We need something to be connected to, something to feel a part of.

You've laid out a lot of the basics and I think a lot of this should be considered. As long as they can make the game fun for the average non BT canon crowd, there is no harm in adding on a top layer for the more in depth players.

I think that political positions should have certain term limits and new elections can be held to refill them on a certain time basis. Also if anyone goes away from the game for a certain period of time, their position can be open for an option to impeach and re-elect someone more active.
My own vision for the political positions would be a mix of things. Your stats have a rating, you can gain support petition style, etc. There would basically be a wittling down method to work to a useable amount of candidates. It wouldn't completely eliminate less skilled players stat wise from the race but those things would be available to voters for consideration.

I think that political positions in the houses should have house skill trees that affect player bonuses and things like availability of supplies.

People have often speculated about the effect of clantech coming into the game. What if clantech, which providing certain high powered benefits, is offset by huge prices and availability restrictions. Perhaps it would take a house most of their focus militarily and supply wise to acquire clantech at a price that could be reasonable to use. The downside of course is that other houses that have spread out their resources in a more balanced way will be able to create variants of all sorts and styles, including access to high powered/tonnage mechs.

So House #1 might choose a tree that focuses on clan tech but their mechs are not as varied and their prices for different technologies are greatly inflated for both purchase and repair. They might also incur shortages at times that only allow partial reloading of things like gauss/LRM/AC based on an ongoing supply/demand market. Since clanntech is about aquiring tech, they might also gain bonuses on that tree from salvage.

House #2 might be able to drop with higher tonnage in each battle and easily supply various variants at reasonable prices. Gauss/AC/missiles would be easier to purchase and restock because they have not focused so much on advanced technology but instead having a strong trade economy. They will not need to count on salvage to affect their access to goods, instead their house economy handles that aspect. They will however be limited to access to clantech because they are not focused on advanced systems. This would mean little availability and huge prices.

Users in each house can fill out polls daily if they wish that helps the leaders know how happy or unhappy they are with current decisions and leadership. More indepth discussions can be had on the forums outside of game.

I think this is probably already on the table in most people's ideas for the metagame but I think that supply and demand should work like a stock market. Over the entire IS there is a certain market that fluctuates in terms of pricing for different goods. This can be adjusted artificially by the Devs to go long with canon stories/events and it will lead to people using different variants during different weeks because of price changes to their equipment for purchase and restock.

This market could be influenced internally by house skill trees allowing them to have backstock that other houses do not possess, and it also would allow people to buy up certain commodities and resell them at later times, adding yet another layer to the metagame where people can make money by trading.

I would compare this to something like the rotation of classes in the game Bloodline champions. F2P users have their available classes rotated so that they have a chance to try different things. This could certainly be done with mechs but it would be interesting if it was more focused on the type of variant than the mech itself.

If you are really unhappy with how your house is run? Defect. These numbers would also be available to political leaders so they know how many people are leaving because they are unhappy.

If you really don't want to be involved in all this mess? Join a merc unit. You would have more control over your own finances and mechs because there would be less hierarchy bogging down your purchase decisions. Also salvage would play a huge part since mercs would be more likely to take everything they can get since supplies are much more restricted than houses. They can work out their own deals with different houses to get supplies so in effect they can operate more akin to a game without factions being implemented. They are just limited mostly by the available funds they have and somewhat by the bonuses their unit has acquired. But if in a mercs unit a person can afford a decked out atlas, who is to stop them from using it as long as they have their own money to keep it running.

Also, with each end of a political term, skill trees can be reset and a certain number of standard points are available to reallocate, and more to be earned. Perhaps there might be a way to allow bonuses to working systems that allow the allocation to remain in place but with some offset so that houses can not get too OP by continuing down one path for many terms.

Edited by Mantiis, 01 September 2012 - 12:56 PM.






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